Thread: If I was to take a trip to Russia

svar45,

We are reaching miscommunications in certain ideas and words. "Fuzzy"... I do not understand.

This is a common problem for translators/interpreters...

If you say to an American that s/he is "dumb", in the way you wrote it, this is highly offensive, your intent is to purposely hurt or disrespect the person you are communicating with. Do you understand? So... I'm trying to reach a common communication level in English that will help us understand each other better. I do this very often with my Spanish/English students. I'm a professional English, and law teacher.

So, please... consider me an idiot in English, keep your English easy, but please do not use words of disrespect toward America, me, my culture, politics, life here... You are certainly intelligent, absolutely... but your current level of English vocabulary is limited, and some of it is with words and phrases that show serious anger toward America/Americans. But your level of English is not able to help most Americans decide whether you are truly angry with most, or all Americans... do Americans truly not please you... OR... to decide if you want to have thought/debate about ideas and problems.

Many Americans will not understand your intent, purpose.

This is an important fact to know and understand about Americans... in discussions as our's... Americans will often think (because of your vocabulary and tone) do you want to hurt me, injure me... they will not think ...do you want to discuss and debate ideas with me. Do you understand the difference?

I will talk politics, politicians, cultures, art, literature, etc... but it is not pleasing when some of your very first words are "All Americans are dumb." This is not a good beginning to a good conversation. Either this is a vocabulary misunderstanding... perhaps an attempt for humor... or it shows that you are close-minded, opposed to other thoughts and opinions.

Do you understand my meaning, and the how I interpret your words?

Originally Posted by Dobry

I will talk politics, politicians, cultures, art, literature, etc... but it is not pleasing when some of your very first words are "All Americans are dumb." This is not a good beginning to a good conversation.

+1

Originally Posted by svar45

You are missing a fundamental point in all good literature, art and film... does your interpretation of Stalker, for example speak for all Ukrainians?... Or for yourself alone?

Certainly, I speak from myself. No one can speak for all Ukrainians etc…it’s nonsense… when I say “we”, I mean ppl that share my view. Even statistics says that equal education, equal environment will born a lot of ppl that share views.

Then, SAY this, WRITE this, and don't speak in broad, sweeping generalizations.
(referring back to your "all Americans are..." generalizations)

Originally Posted by svar45

I should avoid 'your' literature because you are "inside the bottle", and I am "outside"? What is the "bottle"... Russia/Ukraine?... Or being mortally human?

Wrong! “Avoid” it’s wrong word. You should, if you want follow my advice, do not put these books on the top of query for reading! That’s all!

Again, you are making broad conclusions, of the books I read... I read from many cultures, times, and authors... I noted a few Russian authors that are important to me, and you narrowed your opinion of me ... but those aren't the only books I read. Greek plays, James Joyce, Oscar Wilde, Harper Lee are some of my favorites... Homer, Mark Salzman, Mark Helprin, Thomas Pynchon to name a few more.

Don't judge people so quickly.

svar45,

Here is my conundrum... now I am not clear, not understanding whether you want to be joking, playful, satirical, in debate with me... which is O.K., of course! ... or if you trying to offend me, which is not O.K.

Dobry,

We are reaching miscommunications in certain ideas and words. "Fuzzy"... I do not understand. [/qoute]

Fuzzy - "пушистый", "Пушистик", "зверек", "симпатичное животное покрытое мехом". В переносном смысле, "относительно глупая но симпатичная личность, которую приятно погладить по голове".
fuzzy words, fuzzy language - some sort of trivial(childish) language, like Fuzzies speaks in StarWars.

This is a common problem for translators/interpreters...

Hmm, I thought it's not a problem for you at all. Such meanings was even
on TV's, I saw it first time in age of ten on "BВС: English for children".
Mazzy is big green and Fuzzy!!! Hmm, maybe you are so cunning that learn our children wrong English, and themselves speak right one....
I would know it!! Besides, we doing same things with you.

[quote:36na9i0v]If you say to an American that s/he is "dumb", in the way you wrote it

Where I said that? I said that all ppl is "dumb" when speaks foreign languages!
Americans, Russians, Swedish, Papuas etc...
And I'm expressing my opinions clear in this topic why that has place on the Earth! Don't be so suspicious...
As you see, I’m now writing on English - it’s my turn to be “dumb”!

I'm a professional English, and law teacher.

I'm glad to see you. I'm а mathematician by the education, and who knows who by the work.

....skeeping your words....
You are very patriotic man, I’ll consider it in future.
Don't be so suspicious, try to see where was joke (do we love jokes on American\Russian relations?), and where was my translation problem.
I'll NEVER want to HURT you in my speech! It's nonsense!
I'm lives for Confucius : high-minded man do not even talk to other man, if he does not have respect (consideration) to him. And having such consideration inside oneself he has moral rights to say any things to such person.

This is an important fact to know and understand about Americans... in discussions as ours, we often think do you want to hurt me... or do you want to discuss and debate ideas with me.

Second ones, "discuss and debate ideas", trying to force you to understand me, and ppl that shares my views.

Do you understand my meaning, and the how I interpret your words?

[/quote:36na9i0v]

Yes! But I'm just have to hope that you do the same (see language and point oft view(POV) problems).

svar45,

Please read my last post... just edited.

Yes, you did call Americans dumb, including joking about Bush.

Jokes, satire are O.K. with me, but sometimes they go too far... "over the edge" (off the edge of a cliff), we sometimes say here.

I appreciate your thoughts on what you think I should be reading... but your opinion became too strong... this is a difference in our general cultures... if you were my professor I would listen closely... but...

... as two strangers in an art gallery, would you listen to me if I say "Svar, stop looking at this painting, it's dumb! (a painting that pleases you very much, gives you joy or understanding)... Svar, you must go look at this other painting!"

How would you think?

This is my main meaning, for how I interpreted your messages. I did not see your messages as recommendations... I saw them as demands. Your style of English. I'm not criticizing, but giving you my thoughts...as 2 men sharing thoughts over that open bottle.

svar45, Trotsky look-alike

I think the whole thing is just a plain misunderstanding. I'm afraid svar45 was just translating his thoughts in Russian into English literally. Which ALMOST ALWAYS will cause misunerstading.

Before get offended one should just ask a question to clarify what's benn heard or read

I did not see your messages as recommendations... I saw them as demands.

I think it was just his

style of English

I'm not criticizing, but giving you my thoughts...as 2 men sharing thoughts over that open bottle.

My apology for interferring your conversation.


IMHO

Originally Posted by svar45

This is an important fact to know and understand about Americans... in discussions as ours, we often think do you want to hurt me... or do you want to discuss and debate ideas with me.

Second ones, "discuss and debate ideas", trying to force you to understand me, and ppl that shares my views.

[quote:jexrmrp1]Do you understand my meaning, and the how I interpret your words?

Yes! But I'm just have to hope that you do the same (see language and point oft view(POV) problems).[/quote:jexrmrp1]

I understand you much better now, good.

Again, part of the difficulty are the words you use. This is nothing wrong... I understand the limit of your English vocabulary... only a possible misunderstanding in vocabulary, and how some words can become another meaning, depending on the stuation.

"Force"..."force you to understand me, and ppl that share my views"... Some Americans, Canadians, Brits, Aussies, may consider your words too aggressive... for example, your wish or thought to start a physical fight in a bar or pub, especially when alcohol is used. "Force" is the word that is a problem. Easy word for misunderstanding, and could start a fight.

Originally Posted by Alware

svar45, Trotsky look-alike

I think the whole thing is just a plain misunderstanding. I'm afraid svar45 was just translating his thoughts in Russian into English literally. Which ALMOST ALWAYS will cause misunerstading.

Before get offended one should just ask a question to clarify what's benn heard or read

I did not see your messages as recommendations... I saw them as demands.

I think it was just his [quote:8rar65qs] style of English

IMHO
[/quote:8rar65qs]

Good advice. But questions were asked, trying to clarify the questions and answers.

We have both been trying to understand each other's opinions over the last few posts, and whether there was simply a misunderstanding... read my 2 posts above... part of the problem I think is vocabulary misunderstanding and Svar attempting to write in colloquial English... there was also a tone I felt of anger... I could not see if it was anger or satire.... be aware, I've been working with the English language for a long time in many different cultures, so I know the difficulties, problems... and tricks.

Again, I'll accept this as a language misunderstanding.

So, no problem.

Hmmm...I'm definitely don't want to be or look offensive…
I’m can be in high dudgeon, that’s true, but not offensive or aggressive.

maybe, all my thoughts look offensive for you?

Maybe, I'm use too many of "i'ms", which responds in you mind to "I'm Overlord of the Universe, but you dirt on my feet?".
In Russian if using too many "Я" it's look offensive and haughty too.
Also I’m use “you” as opposite side, and you can interpret this as “тыканье”. Who knows…

About drawing, books... yes, if you'll say that to me, my thoughts will be :
"We are just different kinds of people". Someone love Kandinsky "Black square", but most of us don’t.
I’m don’t like his works, becouse I can’t see “a work” in his painting.
But all “love” Italian Renaissance masters.
I’m prefer sculptures (big and small works) then drawings. They just “play on shadows”, but sculpture is real! Benvenuto Cellini “Persey” is the best for me.
It's just question of taste. But!

I'm want to say that's look weird, when all Western ppl, who have interest in Russian culture reads one-two-three writers. Is it be weird if we all Russians just reads Shakespeare and no more? Do you agree with me? What do you feels as American if Russians, says “American writer? Ar know, know, Shakespeare, yes?”
Either, he was Englishman in 16-17th centuries, and USA doesn’t exists in his times. Now you can understand my view of reading “classics” and trying to reach “Russian soul”?


BWT, Russians says jokes all-time. It’s can be silly jokes, dark jokes, but it’s defensive tactic to hide our incompetence.

adding...

heh! NO! I don’t call Americans dumb! But now I can clear say, then you are “over-suspicion”! And let the heavens fall on me!

I said that you(Americans) have more stable state, then Russian’s medieval society, and you don’t care if your president are dumb person like Bush! It's don't mean that all Americans are dumb, just they have other priorities on politics, and that case look weird for Russians.
History of Russia says - if rulers are dumb or coward it’s splits to the parts and destroy many lives of ordinary ppl so Russians loves strong rulers subconsciously! And bad ones like Stalin using this knowledge for gain superpower! That i said!

Originally Posted by svar45

Hmmm...I'm definitely don't want to be or look offensive…
I’m can be in high dudgeon, that’s true, but not offensive or aggressive.

maybe, all my thoughts look offensive for you?

Maybe, I'm use too many of "i'ms", which responds in you mind to "I'm Overlord of the Universe, but you dirt on my feet?".
In Russian if using too many "Я" it's look offensive and haughty too.
Also I’m use “you” as opposite side, and you can interpret this as “тыканье”. Who knows…

About drawing, books... yes, if you'll say that to me, my thoughts will be :
"We are just different kinds of people". Someone love Kandinsky "Black square", but most of us don’t.
I’m don’t like his works, becouse I can’t see “a work” in his painting.
But all “love” Italian Renaissance masters.
I’m prefer sculptures (big and small works) then drawings. They just “play on shadows”, but sculpture is real! Benvenuto Cellini “Persey” is the best for me.
It's just question of taste. But!

I'm want to say that's look weird, when all Western ppl, who have interest in Russian culture reads one-two-three writers. Is it be weird if we all Russians just reads Shakespeare and no more? Do you agree with me? What do you feels as American if Russians, says “American writer? Ar know, know, Shakespeare, yes?”
Either, he was Englishman in 16-17th centuries, and USA doesn’t exists it his times. Now you can understand my view of reading “classics” and trying to reach “Russian soul”?

BWT, Russians says jokes all-time. It’s can be silly jokes, dark jokes, but it’s defensive tactic to hide our incompetence.

Svar,
Yes, you are "clear as good crystal". Большое спасибо. And, you are correct... I would not give someone only Shakespeare to understand English. I understand your point.

I've been educated in several languages, many cultures, art, literature... my father's wish that I become an "educated" man. My original post meaning was that there is value for each of us in all cultures, literature, art, etc. It is especially important for Americans to start thinking more of the "world"... and stop hiding behind American borders. I'm not saying 'business'... I'm saying learning and understanding other countries. This was an important reason I chose to leave the U.S., and moved to Europe.

I think this returns us to our original discussion... can Americans be arrogant, annoying assholes? Yes, of course. Same as many people from most countries. But sometimes Americans are lost and desperately need help also... metro, train, street... same as anyone from anywhere... and some of us are very good people, who just need a small amount of help as we are traveling and trying to reach our next place of safety.

Many Americans are very kind and good people, just lost and trying to find their way. Please remember this... for the next person you meet who is lost and scared.

Svar45, you made good points.

Certainly, I will help on streets any foreigner ppl, and American ones,
you can spend yours assurances (that you are good fuzzy ppl that needs help) to other millions of rude Russians.

В переносном смысле, "относительно глупая но симпатичная личность, которую приятно погладить по голове". Smile
fuzzy words, fuzzy language - some sort of trivial(childish) language, like Fuzzies speaks in StarWars.

"Fuzzy" - это либо "мягкий, пушистый (только в прямом смысле)", либо "неясный, нечеткий, неопределенный, размытый, расплывчатый".

Одно другому не мешает. Дети и Пушистики говорят неразборчивым языком (сюсюкают) и мысли их весьма расплывчаты.

you can spend yours assurances (that you are good fuzzy ppl that needs help) to other millions of rude Russians.

Ну а здесь уже ни то, ни другое. Здесь получается "мягкий, пушистый (в переносном смысле)". Буквальный перевод с русского. Боюсь, Dobry опять не поймет

svr: I think it would do much good for you if you didn't try using quite so many words whose exact meaning you are not sure about your stuff is rather hard to read as it is

Dobry: Note that svr didn't say anything about Chehov or Bulgakov, he was talking specifically about Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky... I definitely agree with him about those two. That's just me, of course But I think however much substance you have, you can't really be called a great writer if you do not have style (the inverse is possible though). And, at least with Dostoyevsky, there are major issues with substance as well.
And I do think we can call Pelevin a modern classic of Russian literature already. Just like we can call smo. like Gaiman a modern classic of English literature.

Thinking about it, a few years back I saw a horrendous avant-garde Russian movie about a guy walking through the Hermitage. I think it was probably the worst, most stupid, boring and stereotypical movie I've seen in my life. But after that I've talked to an American lady who was actually quite impressed and excited about it showing Russian soul and all...

I think it happens quite often that things that are not that popular at home appeal greatly to foreigners. e.g. Patricia Kaas, a French singer who was rather obscure at home, was a cultural phenomenon in Russia at one time. I personally like Japanese 演歌 music (think Kill Bill), that most Japanese of my age and below find utterly boring...

Originally Posted by svar45

Одно другому не мешает. Дети и Пушистики говорят неразборчивым языком (сюсюкают) и мысли их весьма расплывчаты.

Well, you see, it does not work like that. This word does not have a 2nd meaning that you are trying to invoke. Just because something looks like a good word to you doesn't mean it actually is one

Also, whenever a word has a 2nd meaning in Russian, you should *ALWAYS* assume it does NOT have it in English unless you *know* otherwise (i.e. from reading authentic texts).

I can't get...
There are warm-and-fuzzy = белый и пушистый, and many examples when "fuzzy" means good, helpless, not aggressive animal kiddy or human been child. You wants say that fuzzy means in English something bad and ugly?! Try to read H Beam Piper "Fuzzy Sapiens" it is not Russian by origin book.

Originally Posted by svar45

I can't get...
There are warm-and-fuzzy = белый и пушистый, and many examples when "fuzzy" means good, helpless, not aggressive animal kiddy or human been child. You wants say that fuzzy means in English something bad and ugly?! Try to read H Beam Piper "Fuzzy Sapiens" it is not Russian by origin book.

Practice is the only criterion here. If people are telling you it does not work, it simply means it does not work.
BTW, warm-and-fuzzy != белый и пушистый. It describes a certain feeling, rather than a person.
I'd have absolutely NO idea what a "fuzzy person" would be; perhaps I'd take a guess that it means that he is not able to express himself clearly. sim. fuzzy logic == nechetkaja logika.

There are warm-and-fuzzy = белый и пушистый, and many examples when "fuzzy" means good, helpless, not aggressive animal kiddy or human been child.

Maybe you just interpreted it your way Show me these examples and then we'll see.

You wants say that fuzzy means in English something bad and ugly?!

I already said what it means in English.

I think svar45 is rather fuzzy