Thread: If I was to take a trip to Russia

Sir Kris, feel free write to she on English - all you want. Almost ALL RUSSIANS LEAN ENGLISH in school. Just use words that you use to talk with а child. She will be use dictionaries, anyway.

I have to travel a lot in biztrips inside Ukraine, Russia and Belorus. And often saw foreigners "in stuck" situation. They do so funny and dummy things. )

Some examples:

One French pair can't pays for tea&snikers in the train. We, half of the people in the wagon, spend 15min trying help them with it.
First 10min they even can't understand, that they must pay for it.


O! Americans!
I'm sitting in the internet cafe (Kiev, Kheshatik, MainPostamp), the bad one cafe, where you must pay for time, not for traffic. Beside of me sitting American guy about 18-20. First time he annoy neighbor pretty girl with his stupid questions, she chatting in the web with her friends. Types of questions. "where I can spend my time in Kiev" was the best of them. Who cares where you spend you time. But she answer him and give two or there names of nightclubs, writes it on the paper on Russian, and she leaves. Then he switch attention to me and begin to annoy, when i thought on next turn in Galaxy+(a play-by-mail game, need your mind as chess).
Dialog:
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...
- What d'u want?
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...information service.
- What type of information service?
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...telephone ones.
- Call 009.
He calling, of course, they speak Russian.
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla... need English information service.
- There are no such in Ukraine, or I don’t know.
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...i dont belive you.
- What d'u want from information service?
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...where I can spend my time in Kiev.
- But you already have names of nightclubs in your hand.
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...they on Russian.
- And what?
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...
- Ok, I write them on English for you.
Translite (not translate) record for him. He thanx and leaves me alone.
Half hour all clear, then he back, and annoying me again.
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...Where are it, I can't find it.
- Me too, first time hear it.
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla... and why you give me this?
- Me?
- Bla-bla-bla....bla-bla-bla...
- Don't bother me, pal!!! Get taxi and give him first record that girl give yo-ou, written on Russian!!

More of all, Russians don’t like when Americans say too many senseless English words.
Americans very active in talk and can bother anyone! They totally don’t care busy man or not.
Because, they thinks that all people around must help them. But they don’t.
I can help you, with understanding Russians.
Always think – “they are good medieval people”, and play from here, and all be Ok.
You can’t bother medieval knight(ment, clerk) or mistress, better find a girl or а boy, they are not so bigheaded.

svar45,

You've made a good point... but if this man was Prince Mishkin traveling... Tsarevich Ivan searching for the Firebird, and then his beloved Elena... the wanderings of Ulysses to return home... or Don Quixote searching for Esmeralda... then, you can truly never know the journey a man is on, how scared he may be, how confused or how lost he may be, during his journey. "Words" often become the only path 'home'.

I understand your thoughts, and your thoughts of this man were probably accurate, and I understand your irritation.

I'm just reminding us all that there is a difference between arrogance... and the sincere need for help, for someone who needs help... the line is not always straight and clear.

Dobry, he was not scared or confused - believe me! I rare saw so "not confused" man. I'm was confused as medieval man, that hear helicopter beside.
He has something, that Russians often calls "спермотоксикоз", if you understand me right.

You'll make big mistake if speak such words as "irritation, arrogance, sincere" to Russian on street or in office, this words are not in school program of English and they subconsciously drop out them from your speech, but feels that you do a number on them, and sneer of you in reply.

Of course, it happens only with unfamiliar people. To familiar man, family as cell of society has other, much different rules. That’s why you (American\Western ppl) simultaneously see many “good and bad” Russians. We all “good” ones, except ill ppl, but our relations depends who you are for us!

Do you know that word "nemets" or "немец", now used for German ppl,
was used for all foreigners, Englishmen and so on. This word means -"man who can't talk", i.e. "mute, speechless, dumby".
And now, think twice - which position in medieval society had that kind of ppl? Ar, get it? That's why when you turn on "dumb mode" Russians will understand you status in society as "mute" and at once you can get help from good and kind ppl.
It's natural - strong man (see knight) do not search help, he make all himself, or order to do his henchmen.

So as you see this line is straight and clear for Russians!


About journeys, on my mind, each travel is a little act of bravery and heroic deed.
It’s bad that some Americans do not understand that, they always think that they on vacation in Russia.
No! Russia is not this kind of place as Gawai. You in medieval trip, with some chances to have knife in stomach, when stranger in the night ask you for cigarettes. So don’t ready – don’t go in Russia, no one be cry for yours money, except travel agents. That's why our hotels are so bad, we don't care of strong ppl that have bravery travel in Russia. They must care himseft about good place to sleep. If man can't set fire, kill and fry mamont, why he go to us?

I think you don’t ask me now why Russians loves taught guys like Putin in presidents, and not like dumby, like Bush junior.
Communist suckers, like Stalin and other, use that and gains superpower in mind our ppl. One of the main causes why USSR was broken is that Gorbachev was smartass but a coward, revolution was because Nicolay II was dumby lumberjack and a coward,
medieval society can’t carry on this kind of rulers.

Originally Posted by svar45

Dobry, he was not scared or confused - believe me! I rare saw so "not confused" man. I'm was confused as medieval man, that hear helicopter beside.
He has something, that Russians often calls "спермотоксикоз", if you understand me right.

You'll make big mistake if speak such words as "irritation, arrogance, sincere" to Russian on street or in office, this words are not in school program and they subconsciously drop out them from your speech, but feels that you do a number on them, and sneer of you in reply.

Of course, it happens only with unfamiliar people. To familiar man, family as cell of society has other, much different rules. That’s why you (American\Western ppl) simultaneously see many “good and bad” Russians. We all “good” ones, except ill ppl, but our relations depends who you are for us!

Do you know that word "nemets" or "немец", now used for German ppl,
was used for all foreigners, Englishmen and so on. This word means -"man who can't talk", i.e. "mute, speechless, dumby".
And now, think twice - which position in medieval society had that kind of ppl? Ar, get it? That's why when you turn on "dumb mode" Russians will understand you status in society as "mute" and at once you can get help from good and kind ppl.
It's natural - strong man (see knight) do not search help, he make all himself, or order to do his henchmen.

So as you see this line is straight and clear for Russians!

About journeys, on my mind, each travel is a little act of bravery and heroic deed.
It’s bad that some Americans do not understand that, they always think that they on vacation in Russia.
No! Russia is not this kind of place as Gawai. You in medieval trip, with some chances to have knife in stomach, when stranger in the night ask you for cigarettes. So don’t ready – don’t go in Russia, no one be cry for yours money, except travel agents.
I think you don’t ask me now why Russians loves taught guys like Putin in presidents, and not like dumby, like Bush junior.

svar,

You are a man I could, and would, gladly share a bottle with... you are a philosopher. I use certain words because they carry specific meanings... and I'm not clear on your native language... yes, some words do not equate well between various languages... but you have not been using Russian in your writings, so I deduce you're refusing to use Russian, or for some reason are limiting your use.

And I'm curious... you obviously know the meanings of the specific words I mentioned... as do most of my Russian friends... how did you understand them? And why would you ever think the typical Russian mind, soul, heart could not grasp such ideas, and "words", simply because they're not in a textbook?

You are underestimating the power of the human mind. Forget languages... now we are discussing ideas.

My point was... that not all is as it seems... Pelevin's "Omon Ra" is a good example in Russian literature... Bulgakov.... Tarkovsky was the most brilliant at this idea, for teaching us this through film... I'll leave my thoughts at that.

And yes... I've been in Russia... America is my citizenship... but Russia is my soul.

oops, i'm edit message after your replay. May you read it again?

mda...Pelevin. It's difficult to say, how I perceive his books.
For me they are "too much dark" in some places, and I read them
like humoristic ones, but last his book "Ahuli" many girls read like Bible.
If you want more understanding of Russians try to read
fiction books, because fantasies opens mind of good author(not "slave-writers"!) and you see what he really thinking.
Some of Логинoв - "Многорукий Бог Далайна ", Лукьяненко - "Осенние визиты", "Лабиринт Отражений", «Дозоры», Крапивина можно читать подряд. They write books which build modern russian children, i.e. new generation of ppl, not Peleven build them. Why? Can't say it in English, maybe he is "time trimmer".

Dobry, I hope you don't think that Russian literature ends on Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. Most Russians don't like them all, they bored, and read them
only under press of school teachers.

I'll need some time for answer...

I use certain words because they carry specific meanings... and I'm not clear on your native language... yes, some words do not equate well between various languages... but you have not been using Russian in your writings, so I deduce you're refusing to use Russian, or for some reason are limiting your use.

No. Certainly, I’m Russian that lives in Ukraine. Just, you writes English, and I’m too, sync or swim as Discovery says , if you’ll writes Russian I’’ll do it.

And I'm curious... you obviously know the meanings of the specific words I mentioned... as do most of my Russian friends... how did you understand them? And why would you ever think the typical Russian mind, soul, heart could not grasp such ideas, and "words", simply because they're not in a textbook?
You are underestimating the power of the human mind. Forget languages... now we are discussing ideas

Hey! Do not do it with me again!!
Too much English “words” for fuzzy!

Human mind…heh, dude… Human mind is great computer, but it need native language for full operate state.
Which language do you do "thinking”? Ar? Both Russian and English?
When you think not on your native language you lose some of your's Force, Luke. So ppl that see it, thinking that you naturally dumb person. And they are right, in the big case. “Words” are nothing for human been, they are just symbolic links in our brain, like first levels of computer knowledgebase. Get it? But how many links you have in Russian? And how many ordinary Russian man has this “links”, and vise versa with me and English? Try imagine how many operations I must do in brain to write this your fuzzy “words”? But most ppl don’t like strain theirs brain. And Russians a such lazy ppl, maybe most lazy in the world! But your Americans go to Russia, and bother us with your’s sophisticated language and says tricky “words” that we are not leaning in textbooks in school! That make us feel dumby, but we are dont like this pity state of existence. And we(Russians) will do same things with you, i.e. make your life pity.

Originally Posted by Dobry

You are a man I could, and would, gladly share a bottle with... you are a philosopher.

I agree - can I join you guys? Great posts, both of you, thank you!

Svar, I agree with you very much: when you talk to someone that you know doesn't speak your language very well (yet), it's only polite to use easy language. I had the same problem when I was in Russia. But usually, when I told the other person that I am only a stupid foreigner who doesn't speak Russian very well, they did slow down, and tried to speak clearly, and with easy words.
I was very grateful for that.

By the way, my hat off to you for your long posts in English! I couldn't manage to write such a long post in Russian.
So you may be Russian - but you're not so lazy as I am.....
Well done!

Originally Posted by BabaYaga

By the way, my hat off to you for your long posts in English! I couldn't manage to write such a long post in Russian.
So you may be Russian - but you're not so lazy as I am.....
Well done!

Americans always wrong.
(All world knows, don't pretend, that you themselves didn't knew that.)
I'm lazy than you anyway, becouse, I’m talking now with you all guys,
but I do it, becouse, it's funny. And work that I must to do instead it, is not so funny, at all.

Originally Posted by svar45

Americans are always wrong.
(All the world knows, don't pretend that you didn't know that yourself.)

АГА! Does that mean I'm right?! (I not American.....)

Originally Posted by svar45

I'm lazier than you anyway, because I’m talking now with you all guys,
but I do it because it's funny. And the work that I must_do instead of it, is not so funny at all.

Hehehe. Me too.

Ого! Сколько ошибок в четырех предложениях.
Боюсь спросить, сколько я их наделал выше по тексту.
Scusi, for my school-time English.

Originally Posted by BabaYaga

Originally Posted by Dobry

You are a man I could, and would, gladly share a bottle with... you are a philosopher.

I agree - can I join you guys?

Конечно! Пожалуйста!

Originally Posted by svar45

Ого! Сколько ошибок в четырех предложениях.
Боюсь спросить, сколько я их наделал выше по тексту.
Scusi, for my school-time English.

Do not worry about mistakes... your ideas are understood.

Originally Posted by svar45

oops, i'm edit message after your replay. May you read it again?

Dobry, I hope you don't think that Russian literature ends on Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. Most Russians don't like them all, they bored, and read them
only under press of school teachers.

No, I do not think this.

One of my passions is literature... but my time to read is valuable... "classical" literature is "timeless" ... about the "human condition", and common ideas of life among all cultures, all countries... Dostoevsky, Gogol, Bulgakov and many others are the "masters of the art" in examining humanity... all humanity... not only Russians, or Ukrainians. For everyone.

I choose to read these books (and not "popular fiction") because they help me to learn, and understand life. Pelevin's writings have also helped me, the same. But I know he's not popular with many people.

But it was Tarkovsky... yes, I know many people are bored with his films, many people don't like them... but he inspired me to begin to study Russian. His films please me very much. I think he was the best film-maker of the 20th century in the whole world.

So... maybe this will help you understand me better.

<opening the bottle now>

One of my passions is literature... but my time to read is valuable... "classical" literature is "timeless" ... about the "human condition", and common ideas of life among all cultures, all countries... Dostoevsky, Gogol, Bulgakov and many others are the "masters of the art" in examining humanity... all humanity... not only Russians, or Ukrainians. For everyone.

Ok. I groked your position on Russian “classics”. But now you would try to understand my(ordinary Russian) thoughts.
We reads this books in young age, and “classics” just builds some of our stereotypes and food for dirty anecdotes for all life. Heroes of Dostoevsky, Gogol, Tolstoy are far from our reality and far from our imagination, and we reads “War and Peace” as historic roman, where all women was beautiful and men was noble, i.e. not as “moral standards” or something. Young Russian boy gets ten times more moral standarts from “Three musketeers” or “Captain Blood” than from Gogol, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky books all together! Why? Because, in 12-14 age, when human beens builts theirs personality, they want see “bricks” in it, not “slims”! In this age there is no time for question «Тварь ли я дрожащая или право имею»? No such type of sliming at all.
Bulgakov’s books - it’s other thing. Usually we read him as modern writer, i.e. he talks to us, not to our forefathers as an target audience. And we love him much more, you can often hear quotes from «Мастер и Маргарита» in our speech.

I choose to read these books (and not "popular fiction") because they help me to learn, and understand life. Pelevin's writings have also helped me, the same. But I know he's not popular with many people.

Sorry, but You are wrong! Pelevin is dark sarcastic "popular fiction" writer, too much popular from my view.
Girls and students are just piss oneself reading his books. It’s like Steven King but kinda Russian.
I hope that you don’t perceive him as а new “classic”!

But it was Tarkovsky... yes, I know many people are bored with his films, many people don't like them... but he inspired me to begin to study Russian. His films please me very much. I think he was the best film-maker of the 20th century in the whole world.

Yeah! “Stalker” and “Solaris” are my favorite movies, but not only Tarkovsky make them so bright! Станислав Лемм, Стругатские (АБС). Кайдановский в «Сталкере», he makes 99% force of Stalker not Tarkovsky! If it wasn't Кайдановский, but other actor, then Stalker's monolog became a high-pitched piece of shit in Mannerism style, such "reasoning of bad human nature", was very popular for bakers in Florence 16th century.

So... maybe this will help you understand me better.

Maybe, but we still have different POVs on Russian literature: I’m inside the bottle, you are outside. So you often will see good color of old red wine and noble old dusted cobwed on the bottle, but i'm feel vinegar on my tongue and crust on the walls, if wine is overaged. And I just want to tell you that.

I tried to watch the movie Solaris and i barely understand it at all, of course i dont speak very well. how does the main girl keep alive she gets burned frozen and i think a couple other things as well. the main charactor seems a little heartless.

Svar i'll try your advice untill this gets translated, I think you may be right about Americans using "useless" words. I think it would be best for me to write more simply.

weird I often thought it to be rude if you didn't speak normal enough so you dont get your friend speaking like a child all the time, but its great to start off as.

After all dont we all start as children to grow to adults

Sir Krist, i can't get, if you just wait for translation in this topic, why you don't post your text to "Translate It!". Someone, will do it.

BTW,

Монолог Сталкера (Александр Кайдановский) из к/ф A.Тарковского

Пусть исполнится то, что задумано. Пусть они поверят. И пусть посмеются над своими страстями. Ведь то, что они называют страстью - на самом деле, не душевная энергия, а лишь трение между душой и внешним миром. А главное - пусть поверят в себя и станут беспомощными, как дети, потому что слабость велика, а сила ничтожна. Когда человек родится, он слаб и гибок. Когда умирает, он крепок и чёрств. Когда дерево растёт, оно нежно и гибко, а когда оно сухо и жёстко, оно умирает. Чёрствость и сила - спутники смерти. Гибкость и слабость выражают свежесть бытия. Поэтому, что отвердело, то не победит.

http://www.proto-group.com/love/ProtoGr ... akness.mp3

I can’t realize how this text was possible to say without pathetic moralizing. No one couldn’t do it, except Kaidanovsky.

You are missing a fundamental point in all good literature, art and film... does your interpretation of Stalker, for example speak for all Ukrainians?... Or for yourself alone?

I should avoid 'your' literature because you are "inside the bottle", and I am "outside"? What is the "bottle"... Russia/Ukraine?... Or being mortally human?

If the two of us sitting together in El Prado, view Goya's masterpiece "Dog Drowning"... will we each see the same thing? Same thoughts? Same feelings?

Will "Dog Drowning" be less valuable to us... what we each can learn and gain from it... simply because neither of us are Spanish??

Does the Sistine Chapel lose some of her beauty, because neither of us are Italian??

Will James Joyces' "Ulysses" affect you, as it affects me?

And can you ever believe that you will understand the American soul by reading Faulkner's "The Sound and The Fury"... or Pynchon's, "Gravity's Rainbow"?

No, I can never truly understand the Russian soul and heart, because I'm not Russian. But with your thoughts then do you mean I should avoid Russian writings?

You will never truly understand, from an American view, Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn"... or Helprin's "Winter's Tale"... but they are valuable treasures in American literature, and can give you or anyone insight into yourself and into other people, even though you're not American. And I will never try to discourage you from reading them.

Please don't try to discourage me (because as you say I'm only a "dumb American who will never understand"), from reading Russian authors, seeing Russian films, looking at Russian art.

I understand better than you think I do. I've traveled many paths.

Good art, good literature, films, music, poetry... all speak to each of us differently.

This was one of Tarkovsky's main ideas in his films... each of us must discover for ourselves our own thoughts and conclusions.

I appreciate your thoughts on Tarkovsky.

<pours 3 more shots... passes one to BabaYaga>

You are missing a fundamental point in all good literature, art and film... does your interpretation of Stalker, for example speak for all Ukrainians?... Or for yourself alone?

Certainly, I speak from myself. No one can speak for all Ukrainians etc…it’s nonsense… when I say “we”, I mean ppl that share my view. Even statistics says that equal education, equal environment will born a lot of ppl that share views.
When you saw film, do you imagine, that many ppl who read the book “Пикник на обочине”, as me, understands more that was said in film, and they don’t’ saw there many deep thoughts of Strugatsky that WAS in the book and doesn’t in the movie! AБС understoond that film is not book, it’s Tarkovsky creation as director, but without Kaidanovsky, it would be just another Russian moralistic movie. Kaidanovsky saves, i.e. “make” this film! Communist Party very loved propaganda for making “sovietskaya moral”. We was bored of that moral! Do you want hear another evangelistic preacher? I don’t! There are not so many вечных истин, чтобы позволять каждому ослу их провозглашать!

I should avoid 'your' literature because you are "inside the bottle", and I am "outside"? What is the "bottle"... Russia/Ukraine?... Or being mortally human?

Wrong! “Avoid” it’s wrong word. You should, if you want follow my advice, do not put these books on the top of query for reading! That’s all!
Look around, there are many good books in modern Russian literature! But always when was asked foreigners “What did you read from Russian?” They answer - Dostoevsky “C&P”, Tolstoy “W&P”. That make us laugh inside, and smile to you outside! Almost all Russians read these books, but for truth, they don’t set it on pedestal and don’t pray on it! It’s just a book, like others on the bookshelf, and they have other beloved books.

No, you don’t understand me again with “bottle” example. Ok. There is some kind of “Book Space”, you are on “English” planet, I’m on “Russian”, there are “Spanish”, “Italian” planets etc. And between us many translations, spaceships transport for them who knows languages, a lot of “literary garbage” and some diamonds.
situation:
- I’ll take this diamond!
- You can get it fo free. Either we don’t like it already. But we have other stuff, will send it to you?
- No! Just this ones, two or three!
- Weird man.

And so on with all buyers from your planet.

If the two of us sitting together in El Prado, view Goya's masterpiece "Dog Drowning"... will we each see the same thing? Same thoughts? Same feelings?

We maybe, "собака лучший друг человека", I'm not sure on 100%. But Koreans…..they will have some gastronomical allusions.

Will James Joyces' "Ulysses" affect you, as it affects me?
And can you ever believe that you will understand the American soul by reading Faulkner's "The Sound and The Fury"... or Pynchon's, "Gravity's Rainbow"?

I don’t know how "Ulysses" affect you. I love it, but maybe we love different parts in the book and so on?

No, I can never truly understand the Russian soul and heart, because I'm not Russian. But with your thoughts then do you mean I should avoid Russian writings?

No! It’s not true! Reading Dostoevsky you can see some sort of his(sic!) images of Russians of 19th century.
And Dostoevsky himself was not typical person in his times.
I really don’t know what you have to read to understand current Russian ppl and what’s mean “Russian soul” that Westrem ppl so high-priced.
But I know that Pelevin gets you dark and very hyperbolic picture, and can express my opinion on other specific writer, if you need it.

You will never truly understand, from an American view, Mark Twain's "Huckleberry Finn"... or Helprin's "Winter's Tale"... but they are valuable treasures in American literature, and can give you or anyone insight into yourself and into other people, even though you're not American. And I will never try to discourage you from reading them.

I read them, certanly, Mark Twain in translation, is one of the first books that Russain boys reads in my time. And I love O’Henry’s stories as many Russians do, becouse we reads it in childhood.

Please don't try to discourage me (because as you say I'm only a "dumb American who will never understand"), from reading Russian authors, seeing Russian films, looking at Russian art.

Yes! You will never, if reading will be so narrow selective!
I said “dumb” in other context, don’t cheat.
Discourage? In what? Either, I want to courage you to look around! We Russian are very simple ppl, it’s some Western conspiracy, that makes for you too heavy understanding us! THEY (aliens or govs ) control your minds and in a late night hour force you by EM-rays to read Tolstoy and Dostoevsky!
I knew.. knew it!!!

Originally Posted by svar45

I read them, certanly, Mark Twain in translation, is one of the first books that Russain boys reads in my time.

Hey, why are you talking about the boys all the time?! Girls read books too (well, I did ).
Dumas, M.Twain, Jack London, G. Wells, Arthur Conan Doyle and about a dozen of other authors were the usual reading diet of every soviet kid. If you never read "The Three Musketeers" or "White Fang" you were considered some kind of freak.

Originally Posted by Dobry

Don Quixote searching for Esmeralda...

Dulcinea

... del Toboso

At the end, I will try to give you one a little advice, again. Please, read Станислав Логинoв "Многорукий Бог Далайна", Стругатских "Пикник на обочине", "Жук в муравейнике". These things makes many Russian speaking ppl (not only Russians) feel depressed, cry and think about our lives. Not Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. There are no such thing as the "Russian soul" that all you searching, it's just tourist attraction like a матрешка и ушанка, but for educated ppl. Don't buy anything from ppl that says other! They are literature professionals and officials in state institutions (critics, slave-writers, philologists) they will starving and die if they can't sell to you (and us ) all their bullsh!t. Why? Because state officials builds the "Russian culture" as an upturned-pyramid, and it's always dropping down on their heads and ordinary ppl wants to bury the intelligentsia that's smells bad.

I said. I was frank with you, and no more fuzzy English words for me.

_______________________________
Because Mazzy is big green and fuzzy!