Thread: Do Russians marry young?

There are many people in Moscow who were born in Russia to African father and Russian mother. So are they not Russian?

Originally Posted by Dmov

Originally Posted by Pioner

Well show me any REAL Russian. 400 hundred years under tatar's igo (occupation) and you think there is a real Russian existing in the nature? I know a lot of Ukranians who speak no Ukranian. Not mentioning that there is very slim difference between 2 cultures.

I do not understand your point. Being nomads tatars didn't live in Russia at all. Moreover russians had full cultural and political autonomy under the "igo". All that was required to do was to pay дань to the tatars. Since that one should rather expect to find slavic genes in the contemporary tatars.

Well there were a lot of asian genes found in Russians genom. There is a lot of tartar influence found in Russian culture, starting with "frying" which came from tartars. Outside of 400 of paying taxes to tatars, Russia was OCCUPIED by tatars, and it was not an overnight event, believe. Still there were a lot of tatars representative in Russian княжествах, icluding tartar troops who were depended on Russian Prince. Do you believe they had no contacts with Russians at all?

And I have some questions: do you really believe that genes are so important?

No, I do not think so, I believe that there are 2 parts, genom and culture. Considering that Ukranian culture is very similar to Russian, and during Soviet Union it was mixed even more, I took a conclusion that you were speaking about genom differences, as there should a very slight cultural ones.

do you really believe that tatars were/are people of second sort?

no, I do not believe so. BTW, I am a tartar.

and why do you think that having tatar genes 600-700 years ago makes a man to be not Russian or a man of second sort?

where did I mention that Russians are second or any other sort? I do believe that all people are born equal.

I suppose you are racist, aren't you?

Actuall no. Из меня расист как из слона балерина. BTW I live in California. That is very liberal state.

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Originally Posted by Pioner

400 hundred years under tatar's igo (occupation) and you think there is a real Russian existing in the nature?

Not 400, but at best 240 years (1240-1480).

I know a lot of Ukranians who speak no Ukranian. Not mentioning that there is very slim difference between 2 cultures.

That's true. Somebody who's able to point out at least 5 major differencies between Russian and Ukrainian, deserves a Nobel prize.

Originally Posted by Dmov

I do not understand your point. Being nomads tatars didn't live in Russia at all. Moreover russians had full cultural and political autonomy under the "igo". All that was required to do was to pay дань to the tatars. Since that one should rather expect to find slavic genes in the contemporary tatars.

Afaik, mixing of Russians and Tatars began in 16 century, when Russians conquered Tatar khandoms and settled the area. But beign much more numerous, Russians made greater impact on their neighbours. Kazan Tatars aren't mongoloids any more, but Russians still hold many anthropological features of ancient Eastern Slavs.

[quote:v8lei89r]And I have some questions: do you really believe that genes are so important?

Though culture is what really makes you Russian, imho genes are important. I won't recognise a guy from Afrcia as (Afro)Russian. Never.[/quote:v8lei89r]

I totally agree with you.

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Kazan Tatars aren't mongoloids any more, but Russians still hold many anthropological features of ancient Eastern Slavs.

well, do I look very mongoloid?

slightly

FYI Russians:

In english we don't say Tartars but Mongols, as in the Mongol Yoke (тартарское иго)...

-nitpicker

OHHH... SO thats what a tartar is?? Hahahah I never knew! Well cool.

And you look slavic.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

FYI Russians:

In english we don't say Tartars but Mongols, as in the Mongol Yoke (тартарское иго)...

-nitpicker

thanks, I did not know. Actually in Russian we use 3 equal terms: Монголо-татары, Татары, Монголы. But the last 2 are names for current nations of tartars and mongols, which are 2 very different ethnic groups now. Modern mongols came from central China, mixed with mongol-tartars who were there. And the group which migrated and occupied Russia stayed there, mixed with slavics quite a bit, so you get face like mine.

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

OHHH... SO thats what a tartar is?? Hahahah I never knew! Well cool.

And you look slavic.

I guess so, but many Russians here in Sacramento think that I am an american who is quite fluent in Russian, even complement me for my Russian.

tartars look like slavic often, and Russians got some asian features often, like high cheekbones. I still got some asian (mogoloid) features in me, a little omened eyes (в русской литературе встречается выражение: татарские глаза), semi-thick black hair (similar what chinise got), and got asian DNA in my митохондриях (do not know English spelling for the word).

I can even distinguish between Tatars and Bashkirs
I was born in Tatarstan near Bashkortostan, and the friends of my childhood belong to at least four nations.

Well, my mother is Bashkir.
But it is difficult to explain to americans what is that ethnic group.

Welcome to the forum - "Центральноазиатский исторический сервер"

topic "Антропологические типы тюрков"

and maybe you will be able to distinguish Tatars and Bashkirs too.

Originally Posted by FL

Welcome to the forum - "Центральноазиатский исторический сервер"

topic "Антропологические типы тюрков"

and maybe you will be able to distinguish Tatars and Bashkirs too.

wow, thanks, it is not my field, but maybe my mother will be interested in that, thanks for the link.

Коллекция ссылок ("Центральноазиатский исторический сервер")

Там есть ссылки на башкирские сайты по истории.

Originally Posted by Pioner

Well there were a lot of asian genes found in Russians genom. There is a lot of tartar influence found in Russian culture, starting with "frying" which came from tartars. Outside of 400 of paying taxes to tatars, Russia was OCCUPIED by tatars, and it was not an overnight event, believe. Still there were a lot of tatars representative in Russian княжествах, icluding tartar troops who were depended on Russian Prince. Do you believe they had no contacts with Russians at all?

I do not want to argue the point that Russians have Tatar genes or vice-versa. It doesn't matter I suppose. And I do not reject Tatar influence to Russian culture at all, but it couldn't be overwhelming, otherwise Russians would be muslims nowadays

And what if some Russians have Tatars blood? I just do not understand your statement that the Russians that have Tatar genes are not TRUE Russian. It is a sheer nonsense, I would say. Say, just, that any German who has Jewish blood is not a TRUE German, or any American who has Indian or African blood is not a TRUE Amercan, or any Spaniard who has Arabic blood is not a TRUE Spaniard and, in some countries, you would be sued for nacism, racism and so on Don't you see any analogies here?

Originally Posted by Pioner

...got asian DNA in my митохондриях (do not know English spelling for the word).

mitochondria?

It seems you are not very familiar with Mongolian (назовём так для простоты весь татарский суперэтос) history. Mongols were not Moslems. Коренная монгольская религия, которую должны были придерживаться все чингизиды (потомки Чингизхана), была религия бон. Многие монголы были христианами-несторианами, многие - язычниками. Ислам распространился в Поволжье еще до прихода монголов. Потом, опираясь на местных жителей, хан Узбек произвел переворот.

http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/R2R/r2r0 ... 02chapter3
“
Покровитель Михаила - Тохта, направляясь на летнее кочевье, умер при невыясненных обстоятельствах, и власть захватил царевич Узбек (1312). Поддерживали Узбека многочисленные ордынские мусульмане, которые исстари селились в поволжских городах, и таким образом в Сарае пришла к власти новая партия - исламская.
Наследник традиций хана Берке - Узбек - проявил себя как крайне жестокий правитель. Приняв ислам, он под страхом смертной казни потребовал того же от всех своих подданных. Дотоле репрессии по религиозным мотивам в Орде никогда не применялись, поэтому не было ничего удивительного в том, что многие отказались принять "веру арабов". Ведь, по Ясе Чингисхана, хан не мог вмешиваться в вопросы веры, а свобода совести всегда понималась монголами как личная свобода человека. Узбек без колебаний отверг этот принцип - все, отказавшиеся обратиться в мусульманство, в том числе 70 царевичей Чингисидов, были казнены. Но большому количеству татар (христиан и язычников), отказавшихся принять ислам, удалось уехать на Русь и при Узбеке, и впоследствии.

…
При Иване Калите получил свое окончательное воплощение новый принцип строительства государства - принцип этнической терпимости. В отличие от Литвы, где предпочтение отдавалось католикам, в отличие от Орды, где после переворота Узбека стали преобладать мусульмане, в Москве подбор служилых людей осуществлялся исключительно по деловым качествам. Калита и его наследники принимали на службу и татар (христиан и язычников, бежавших из Орды после победы ислама и не желавших поступаться религиозными убеждениями), и православных литовцев, покидавших простых русских людей, все богатство которых заключалось в коне да сабле. Никаких владений у этих людей не было, и потому они искали службы, то есть государственных военных обязанностей, за выполнение коих от князя московского следовало вознаграждение в виде "корма" с небольшой деревеньки. Силой, связующей всех "новонаходников", в Москве стала православная вера. Ведь обязательным условием поступления на московскую службу было добровольное крещение. Креститься необходимо было и для заключения брака. Множество татар - ордынских выходцев - женились на русских красавицах, а татарки выходки замуж за русских.
“

Кстати, есть версия, что Иван Грозный прямой потомок Мамая (участника Куликовской битвы). Род Глинских (матери Ивана Грозного) пошел от Мамая.

"
НА ПОЛЕ КУЛИКОВОМ
Общее количество русских ратников, собравшихся под знаменами Дмитрия Московского, исчислялось 150 тысячами человек. Это войско состояло из княжеских конных и пеших дружин, а также ополчения, вооруженного копьями, рогатинами и топорами. Конница (около 20 тысяч дружинников) была сформирована из крещеных татар, перебежавших литовцев и обученных бою в татарском конном строю русских. В войсках Мамая была генуэзская пехота, а также аланы (осетины), касоги (черкесы) и половцы, мобилизованные на генуэзские деньги. Общая численность войск грозного темника составляла приблизительно 200 тысяч человек.
"

Originally Posted by FL

It seems you are not very familiar with Mongolian (назовём так для простоты весь татарский суперэтос) history. Mongols were not Moslems

I've read many works of L. Gumilev and apreciate them very much. But it is well known that by the end of XIII century most Mongols in the western part of their Imperia had become muslims, so if there was that severe "igo" of 400 years as we heard often, most probably the Russian would become muslims too. You see, Islam is very proselitic religion and it would be not very likely to be fully under newly-converted muslims for about 400 years and didn't become muslims too And we don't even have any Mosque in the Russian cities of that time. So I believe that L. Gumilev was right when he said that there was no such "igo" as we got used to believe, it was just some kind of political union between nomadic Mongols, settled Russians and many other nations...

Tartar<>Moslem at least in XIII-XVI century.

Though Tartars-Moslems lived in Russia too (in Vladimir region). They were касимовские татары.

Originally Posted by FL

Tartar<>Moslem at least in XIII-XVI century.

Originally Posted by FL

Ведь, по Ясе Чингисхана, хан не мог вмешиваться в вопросы веры, а свобода совести всегда понималась монголами как личная свобода человека. Узбек без колебаний отверг этот принцип - все, отказавшиеся обратиться в мусульманство, в том числе 70 царевичей Чингисидов, были казнены.

I.e. in beginning of XIV century Uzbek-khan executed all his vassals who didn't agree to become muslims. But what did prevent him to make the same in the Russia if there was that dreadful "igo" then? Except that he simply didn't have the appropriate power to do so, and Russians had some considerable independence even then, just after 70 years of the Mongol-invasion?