Thread: The crisis in Syria

I have fond memories of Syria...

In the 1980's I walked through the streets of Damascus and sipped Turkish coffee with a man selling embroidered table cloths at a bazaar. I listened to the sounds of prayers coming from the minaret towers and ate tabbouleh under a canvas covering in a garden scented with jasmine flowers and citrus. I walked into ancient mosques in my bare feet, stood upon hand-woven tapestries and marveled at the intricate, colorful tile mosaics.

Later we drove across a vast desert in a van, forded the Tigris and the Euphrates rivers on our journey to Palmyra, the ruins of a once-great trading mecca along the ancient "silk road". There I walked along a colonnaded promenade, among sand-blasted pillars still standing as if in a final salute to their builder, the great warrior Queen, Zenobia, descendent of Cleopatra, who in the third century had the gall to challenge Rome. Palmyra was also known as Tadmor or "Palm City," because it was an oasis where caravans piled with the wealth of the ancient world once stopped to quench the thirst of their weary camels and horses. Zenobia, said to be as good with a sword as any man, rode with her generals into battle and fought against the armies of the great Emperor Aurelian. Her armies brazenly conquered many Roman territories, including Alexandria, before the armies of Rome burned Palmyra to the ground and Aurelian slapped Zenobia into golden chains and dragged her, naked, through the streets of Rome in triumph. Even so, the former splendor of one of the most wealthy trading empires in the world could still be seen, gleaming faintly as the setting sun cast long shadows on columned ruins and stained them pink.

I spotted a pair of Soviet MiGs hurtling through the skies above a ridge overlooking Palmyra, and was reminded that Syria was now a strategic location in the modern world, just as Palmyra once was in Roman times.

We journeyed through Aleppo to Northern Syria where we arrived at our destination, the ancient city of Urkesh, known as Tel Mozan. The Turkish border, only a kilometer away, was clearly visible, dotted with giant guard towers that occasionally were struck by lightening when a sandstorm rolled through, explosions brightening the storm-darkened sky. We were there to work on a significant archaeological find dating back more than 5,000 years and as we labored in the intense 48C heat, we sifted through sand for potsherds, ancient bones and mysterious cult objects from the temple we were excavating. There, we found two skeletons burned by a fire which had destroyed the temple untold thousands of years before our arrival, crushing the people inside under a fallen wall.

The Arab workmen, who helped us to remove large rubber buckets filled with sand, were curious about us, strange light-skinned visitors from the west, and asked many questions as we drank water or the terrible beer of the region which was called Al Shark and smelled like urine. They warned me with comments of "shway shway!" - "caution" - whenever I accidentally dug too close to hole of a camel spider. These strange arachnid-like creatures were as large as dinner plates and aggressive, sometimes sneaking into our barracks in the middle of the night where we smashed them with our boots.

Our small expedition of a dozen or so archaeological professors and students shared only one toilet, built in the Arab style, a porcelain grid in the dirt with only a hose to wash away our waste. The foreign food was problematic for most of us and so there was always a line of uncomfortably shifting people waiting for a turn inside the outhouse. One time, I sneaked onto the top of the Tel in the dark of the night to urinate, and discovered to my horror that I was squatting in the middle of a line of marching ants a meter wide! It was all I could do not to scream and alert the entire camp, as I jumped about and shook the biting ants from my pant-legs.

Despite the heat, we women workers did not uncover our wrists or ankles, nor expose our throats because we were told it might offend the Muslim workmen who labored alongside us. My hair was bound up in a keffiyeh or hijab which helped prevent the sun from burning my scalp.

We played volleyball with the Syrian and Kurdish workmen, who were distracted at first by the western women playing with them and seemed afraid to hit the ball, but, upon realizing that the women were winning too many games, they decided to play with us just as they played with the other men, punching and slapping the ball back and forth across the net. There, I saw a handsome Kurdish man holding his delicate, blond-haired daughter astride his neck, his surprising blue eyes filled with pride and love.

And now I wonder, what will become of all of that?

I have no words for the heartbreak I feel.

Nobody from the outside world said back then, in 2011, "Assad, you're a dictator and we're gonna bomb you"; it was the Syrian people themselves who ultimately got fed up with that hypocritical authoritarian rule who declared war on the regime; a few weeks of those protests made it evident that the regime had become totally unwelcome there; if it wasn't such a bad dictatorship, that would've been enough for that "government" to go away; instead, they started waging a war against their own people ultimately killing over 100,000 civilians as of now; there's already no that Syria that somebody keeps warm memories of, because it has been destroyed by its dictatorial rule; now it's just time to stop the dictator felons from their further crimes, and do some sort of justice on them for what they already have done.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Nobody from the outside world said back then, in 2011, "Assad, you're a dictator and we're gonna bomb you"; it was the Syrian people themselves who ultimately got fed up with that hypocritical authoritarian rule who declared war on the regime; a few weeks of those protests made it evident that the regime had become totally unwelcome there; if it wasn't such a bad dictatorship, that would've been enough for that "government" to go away; instead, they started waging a war against their own people ultimately killing over 100,000 civilians as of now; there's already no that Syria that somebody keeps warm memories of, because it has been destroyed by its dictatorial rule; now it's just time to stop the dictator felons from their further crimes, and do some sort of justice on them for what they already have done.

The rebels are not exactly good guys either, Eric. For starters, the rebel movement has been co-opted by Al Qaeda and Al Nusra. Secondarily, the UN investigation so far reveals that it was the rebels - and not Assad - who used sarin gas. And lastly, the rebels engaged in acts of cannibalism - ripping the organs out of their enemies and eating their hearts and intestines.

I cannot begin to comprehend why the US is supporting these people. It's absolutely horrifying. I did not vote for Obama because I wanted to see another repeat of George W. Bush's actions in Iraq.

Cheat Sheet On Syria: Events Are Moving Quickly Now… Here’s What You Need to Know

This article did an excellent job of summing up all the reasons why a military intervention is an incredibly BAD idea. Each of the reasons given has links to supporting information provided in the article, which states:

Bombing Syria will only strengthen the hardliners … and harm America’s national security. The top U.S. military commander says that attacking Syria would be risky and expensive

A Syrian war could be one of the least popular wars in American history

In fact, most of the world is against attacking Syria

War against Syria could spike oil prices and plunge us back into another recession

Russia has repeatedly stated that it would consider an attack on Syria as an attack on its national security. China has also strongly cautioned the U.S. against attacking Syria. China and Russia hold alot of U.S. debt, and could make life difficult for us economically if we unnecessarily anger them

Experts have – so far – expressed doubts that chemical weapons were actually used

The American government – in a replay of the Iraq war – is trying to stop UN weapons inspectors from seeing if chemical weapons were used

If chemical weapons were used, it’s unclear who used them

The U.S. has repeatedly falsely accused others of using chemical weapons

The Syrian rebels have – apparently – previously used chemical weapons

The U.S. has been backing Al Qaeda and other known terrorists in Syria

A former Democratic Congressman said that a U.S. strike on Syria would make America “Al Qaeda’s Air Force“

The U.S., Britain and Israel have used chemical weapons within the last 10 years

“Humanitarian” wars usually don’t turn out very well

Attacking Syria without Congressional approval would be unconstitutional

The U.S. and Britain considered attacking Syrians and then blaming it on the Syrian government as an excuse for regime change … 50 years ago (the U.S. just admitted that they did this to Iran)

The U.S. has been planning regime change in Syria for 20 years straight

The U.S. has been arming the Syrian opposition since 2006

America is not involved in Syria because that country poses a threat to America’s security … but for entirely different reasons

Many see the timing of the Syria crisis as an attack by the U.S. government to distract from its domestic scandals. If you need a reminder about what’s going on inside our country, here’s a cheat sheet on spying.

And in other news, those beautiful ruins of Palmyra which I described earlier are already swarming with soldiers and tanks. Ancient antiquities have been destroyed, and an ancient Roman temple has been shelled. The ruins withstood thousands of years of history and could very well be WIPED OUT in an instant during this modern conflict.

Ten years ago the US battled against Al Qaeda in Afganistan. Now the US will fight alongside Al Qaeda in Syria. Looks like Obama wasn't quite satisfed with his Nobel prize after all.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I have fond memories of Syria...

Is it your own story, do I get it right? Have you been to Syria? Sorry, I've never known that.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Is it your own story, do I get it right? Have you been to Syria? Sorry, I've never known that.

Yes, my own experiences. I served on an archaeological expedition to Syria in 1987.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Ten years ago the US battled against Al Qaeda in Afganistan. Now the US will fight alongside Al Qaeda in Syria. Looks like Obama wasn't quite satisfed with his Nobel prize after all.

If he invades Syria, then I think his Nobel prize should be rescinded. As for US relationship with Al Qaeda? It goes back a long way, as does the US relationship with the Taliban. It appears that America calls them "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" - depending on the situation.

osama.jpg

For example, this photo from the early 1990's depicts Osama Bin Laden as "warrior for peace" following the end of the Soviet/Afghan war. Taliban were "freedom fighters" when they were killing Russians. Then, after 9/11 they became "terrorists" because they killed Americans.

In my view, they were always terrorists. And most Americans do not seem to understand that the Soviets were *invited* by the Afghan government to put down an insurrection. They think that the Soviets "invaded" Afghanistan, which is patently not true.

Apparently, I am not the only one who thinks Obama's Nobel Peace prize should be rescinded if he invades Syria.

Obama should be stripped of his Nobel Peace prize if he starts Syria war — RT Op-Edge

George Carlin would certainly not approve of invading Syria!

"'...America and war….
It’s the old American double standard, you know, say one thing, do something different. And, of course, the country is founded on the double standard. That’s our history. We were founded on a very basic double standard. This country was founded by slave owners who wanted to be free. Am I right? A group of a slave owners who wanted to be free, so they killed a lot of white English people in order to continue owning their black African people, so they could wipe out the rest of the red Indian people and move west and steal the rest of the land from the brown Mexican people, giving them a place to take off and drop their nuclear weapons on the yellow Japanese people. You know what the motto of this country ought to be? You give up a color, we’ll wipe it out. You got it.
So, anyway, about eighty years after the Constitution is ratified, eighty years later, the slaves are freed. Not so you’d really notice it, of course. Just sort of on paper. And that was, of course, during the Civil War. Now, there’s another phrase I dearly love. That is a true oxymoron if I’ve ever heard one: civil war. Do you think any country could really have a civil war? “Say, pardon me” [gun shots]—“I’m awfully sorry. I’m awfully sorry.” Now, of course, the Civil War has been over for about 120 years, but not so you’d really notice it, because we still have these people called Civil War buffs, people who thought it was a really keen war, and they study the battles carefully, and they try to improve on the strategies and the tactics to increase the body count, in case we have to go through it again sometime. In fact, some of these people actually get dressed up in uniform once a year and go out and refight these battles. You know what I say? Use live ammunition, [bleep], would you please? You might just raise the intelligence level of the American gene pool.
But what do you expect? Hey, come on, this is a warlike country. We come from that northern European, basically the northern European genes, the blue eyes. Those blue eyes. Boy everybody in the world learned real quick, didn’t they? When those blue eyes sail out of the north, you better nail everything down [bleep]. Nail it down, strap it down, or they’ll grab it. If they can’t take it home, they’ll burn it. If they can’t burn it, they’ll [bleep]. That’s what happened to us. And it’s a warlike country. C’mon, I mean, forget foreign policy. Even the domestic rhetoric is warlike. Everything about our domestic policy invokes the thought of war. We don’t like something in this country, we declare war on it. The war on poverty, the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on AIDS, the war on cancer. We’ve got the only national anthem that mentions [bleep] rockets and bombs in the [bleep] thing. You know what I mean?"

I edited my post to include the longer version of Carlin's "We Like War" presentation. I especially enjoy the part towards the end where he talks about how it's all really about men comparing the size of their dicks! Carlin was a genius. No one ever said it as well as he did. Brilliant man. Died too young.

Americans voted in Obomber (TWICE) and then complain afterwards. Typical lefties.

And most Americans do not seem to understand that the Soviets were *invited* by the Afghan government to put down an insurrection. They think that the Soviets "invaded" Afghanistan, which is patently not true.

Actually it’s not true, and I hope you’re simply misguided by communist propaganda.

Режим Амина не пользовался популярностью, положение президента было шатким, а смена власти в Афганистане могла привести к его выпадению из советской сферы влияния. Более того, предполагалось, что Амин сотрудничает с ЦРУ и может сблизиться с западными странами, и, это было наиболее опасным, Хафизулла мог разрешить размещение военных баз НАТО на территории своей страны. Допустить появления войск вероятного противника у своих границ руководство СССР не могло, поэтому 12 декабря 1979 года Политбюро ЦК КПСС приняло секретное постановление «К положению в Афганистане». Суть его сводилась к тому, что необходимо устранить Хафизуллу Амина, на его место поставить Бабрака Кармаля, а для стабилизации положения послать в Афганистан войска.

27 декабря началась подготовка к штурму Тадж-Бека. Советские агенты подсыпали яд в еду Амина, когда тот давал обед по случаю возвращения из Москвы секретаря ЦК НДПА Панджшири. Ничего не подозревавшие советские медики смогли спасти ему жизнь, после чего спецгруппы КГБ пошли на штурм дворца. Бой во дворце длился 43 минуты. По воспоминаниям участников, хирург Анатолий Алексеев довёл Амина до бара. Афганский лидер присел к стене, но тут раздался детский плач и откуда-то выбежал сын Амина, который, увидев отца, бросился к нему. Амин обнял его, а спустя какое-то время пять бойцов спецгруппы КГБ «Альфа» ворвались в комнату и дали очередь из автоматов. Хафизулла Амин и его сын были убиты. Ночью кабульское радио сообщило, что по решению революционного суда Амин приговорён к смертной казни и приговор приведён в исполнение. Один из советских врачей, оказывавших помощь Амину, также был убит советскими спецназовцами.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Амин,_Хафизулла

Russian14: Do you even know how to have a discussion without insulting people? Maybe you would get more likes if you were not constantly insulting everyone all the time. Let's see you rise above the petty name calling and childish "neener neener" behavior and join in an adult, civil discussion.

As for me, I do not lump everything together. I do not like to engage in either/or, black/white, bad/good thinking. The world is much more complex than that.

Obama has done good things, and he has done bad things. I voted for him because my husband was dying of a heart condition and we wanted universal healthcare. And thanks to Obama, my husband is 1) still alive and 2) we will be able to purchase affordable healthcare for me in 2014 so that I can finally see a doctor too.

That does not mean I support the war in Syria. Should Obama invade Syria, however, that will not undo the good accomplished with health care reform.

Let's stick to the issues, please, and let's rise above this nonsense name-calling and slandering of people. There are a lot of things I could say about you as well, but I will refrain because frankly, I do not care to play in the детский сад.

Originally Posted by diogen_

Actually it’s not true, and I hope you’re simply misguided by communist propaganda.

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Амин,_Хафизулла

Be that as it may, it is a different discussion for another time and I do not want to get into a dispute over it and derail this thread into a discussion about Soviet politics. My point is that the labels change over the years. Yesterday's "freedom fighters" become today's "terrorists" who become tomorrow's "freedom fighters" again. It's all a big semantics game.

Speaking of semantics games....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...empty/2726493/

Russian state-owned media reported that two Russian warships were sailing for the eastern Mediterranean Sea to protect Russian interests as tensions escalate in the region.

The ships, a missile cruiser and a large anti-submarine vessel, are traveling from the North Atlantic and will arrive in a number of days, Reuters reported.

Middle East analysts say weapons and terrorist networks at Iran's disposal mean the threats should be taken seriously.

"Iran is a huge threat," said Ariel Cohen, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation.

Both Iran and Syria have threatened to retaliate against Israel and other U.S. allies in the Middle East in the event of a U.S. attack on Syria over its alleged use of chemical weapons against civilians. Hundreds of Syrians in a region held by rebels were reported killed in an Aug. 21 attack.

So here is the really scary question: Are we looking at another proxy war between US and Russia? Or will Russia's response be even more direct? If the US invades Syria, will this escalate into a global conflict?

Alan Grayson On Syria Strike: 'Nobody Wants This Except The Military-Industrial Complex'

Congressman Alan Grayson (D-FL) speaks out in opposition to a US airstrike against Syria; says that such an action would only benefit war profiteers:

"One thing that is perfectly clear to me in my district, and I think is true in many other districts from speaking to other members, is that there is no desire, no desire on the part of people to be the world's policeman," Grayson said on SiriusXM's "The Agenda with Ari Rabin-Havt," which aired Thursday morning. "For us to pick up this gauntlet even on the basis of unequivocal evidence of chemical warfare by the Syrian army, deliberately against its own people -- even if there were unequivocal evidence of that -- that's just not what people in my district want."

That doesn't mean that opposition is universal, Grayson allowed. "I did notice, for what it's worth, that the manufacturer of the missiles that would be used has had an incredible run in their stock value in the last 60 days. Raytheon stock is up 20 percent in the past 60 days as the likelihood of the use of their missiles against Syria becomes more likely. So I understand that there is a certain element of our society that does benefit from this, but they're not the people who vote for me, or by the way the people who contribute to my campaign," he said. "Nobody wants this except the military-industrial complex."

Raytheon stock has in fact surged over the past two months, though it's been slightly shy of 20 percent.