Quote Originally Posted by DDT
Quote Originally Posted by Cyphyr
most ordinary Palestinians would be happy if they could get the Israeli army out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem and see most if not all of the settlements there dismantled so they could have their own state and live in peace. This is a reasonable and just objective.
Oh really? Firstly the army has to be there as long as Arabs are attacking Israelis. Secondly, don't you think that there is a double standard here that you are overlooking? Arabs are perfectly welcome to live with Israelis. Why is it that the few Jews in Gaza are being kicked out and their chuches being destroyed? Imagine the uproar if it was mosques that were being destroyed? Are Arabs racist then? Probably not because this is about religion not race and especially not about land. Think about it! If all Israelis became muslims this conflict between Arabs and Israelis would not exist, it would simply vanish. Arabs will not tolerate Israel's existence simply because it is not muslim. Arafat said that he would not stop fighting until Israel was destroyed.

Yet there is a growing amount of people who are believing that Arabs are the good guys here or are neutral on this. I find this incredible! As it was once written, that, "in the End Good shall be counted for Evil and Evil shall be counted for Good.'

I fear that each generation dies with the knowlege that the comming generations will only be more stupid than the previous.
DDT, I don't know whether you really believe this stuff or are just trying to wind folks like me up. You've argued some pretty crazy things in the past, like the Barbary pirates were actually Islamist fighters (You produced a link insinuating this, then when I challenged you, you proceeded to post another link which contradicted the first and actually supported my view! ). But trying to link Einstein to Creationism/Intelligent Design Theory was just hilarious! I'm finding it incredibly hard to take you seriously after that, but I fear you probably do believe this anti-Arab, anti-Muslim tripe.

So your sympathies lie with the poor put-upon settlers? Well, I can perhaps feel some sympathy for economic settlers who went there because of government incentives and perhaps to improve their living conditions but I certainly don't feel any sympathy for the ideological settlers (the majority) who don't give a damn for the sufferings of the Arab population around them. They are there to drive out the Palestinians and claim the land that "God gave to them". They're not a particularly nice bunch of people. In Hebron for example where 7000 Jewish settlers dominate the centre of a city with a population of 130,000 Palestinians, they have daubed the walls of much of the ancient bazar with racist hate-filled graffiti. They also pour boiling water and throw rocks at the Arabs on the streets below. About 1000 Israeli soldiers are in place there to protect the settlers and they constantly check, harass and humiliate the local Arab population. On the 25th of February 1994, one of these settlers, Baruch Goldstein, walked into the Mosque in the centre of the town and went on a killing spree killing 29 people and injuring more than a hundred. In was in the aftermath of this atrocity that Hamas embarked on a campaign of suicide bombing within Israel. I'm not saying this was a justified response, but Goldstein's attack created the climate for this degree of savage brutality to develop. If you get the chance, I suggest you look at the excellent series "The Cult of the Suicide Bomber" which was screened on Channel 4 in the UK recently. It traces the evolution of this deadly cultural virus over the last 25 years. This was a crucial point in its development.

In short, the presence of these intolerant religious extremists in the midst of deprived Palestinian neighbourhoods has drastically exacerbated the Arab-Israeli conflict and made the whole world a much more dangerous place as a result. Palestinian homes are being bulldozed to make way for new settlements all the time and they are being pushed into smaller and smaller scraps of territory. The following map should make it quite clear what is going on in the West Bank. The brown areas are the increasingly shrinking Palestinian lands. If they continue their present policy they will turn these into nothing more than open prisons or ghettos. In many cases, that is what they have become.



The full size map in pdf format can be found at the link below.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/Sepa...er_Map_Eng.pdf

If Israel is so intent on retaining the territories it won in the 1967 war, then it should give Israeli citizenship to the Arabs who live there. But it won't do that, it wants the land but it doesn't want the people, because there would no longer be a Jewish majority within the state in that scenario. The only fair arrangement in the light of that consideration is the creation of a viable Palestinian state, but that is becoming impossible because of the settlement activity.

Of course, all of this doesn't make a blind bit of difference to you DDT, as you're wedded to this idea that the Arabs are all bad and the Israelis are all innocent victims incapable of doing anything wrong. I guess it doesn't really matter because you're just an ordinary guy like me who has no political power over all of this. Unfortunately, many in the current US administration hold views not that dissimilar to your own and they are not making this world any safer with their policies.