Thread: Atomic Bombing on the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Originally Posted by a true arab

IIF YOU DO NOT CARE THAT IS BECAUSE OF RACISM AND SELFISHNESS IN YOUR DEEP.

Just because I think that anyone who is gullible enough to follow Islam is the same as wearing tinfoil on your head, does not mean that I am racist.

Originally Posted by a true arab

BY THE WAY BRUTALITY CAN NOT BE FOUGHT BY BRUTALITY.
REGARDS,
TNT ...SORRRRRRRY DDT

You need to loosen your hat band because that is just plain silly. How else would you fight brutality, offer yourself up as a sacrifice?

Originally Posted by DDT

But really there Klinky, whats the difference between one Atomic bomb and a massive carpet bombing? The same amount of people get killed. Afterall, isn't that the objective of war, to kill people. You should keep in mind that this idea to limit the amount of dead people to only combatants is a NEW idea in war. No such concept was worried about in WWII or WWI. You see back then the idea that one side of an arguement or war could actually be righteous was still prevalent. Not so, now in this age of grey. These days everybody is correct because they "have their own truth". Well that's a load of huey. Hitler and Japan were wrong and that's it.
They lived by the sword (attacked peaceful people), so they died by the sword (we dropped an A bomb and carpet bombed them. End of story.

What is the difference between an atomic bomb and a massive carpet bombing? ALOT. Radioactivity does not only kill the current generation it effect ALL the next generations. Birth defects that will occur again and again, down the generations. Uninhabital land for centuries. But you were probably only talking about instentanious loss of lives/destruction.

If you had studied WWII history, you would remember that Germany, after the fall of France, actually bombarded English military bases and did not touch the civilian population. The RAF was in deep doo-doo, they were losing more planes than they could build... Germany was winning the air war over Britan. Then a stray German bomber accidently drops bombs on London. England revenges themselves by bombing Berlin. After that Hitler got so vexed he decided to bomb the civilian population of England, which gave a much needed respite to the RAF and they could regain the air supremacy. The point I am making is that WWII (or WWI) did not go out of the way to kill civilians of opposing forces initally (notibale exception the Jews, which is a different story), it just degenarated into what it became.

In any case, bombing the civilian population, no matter with what reasons, is not justifiable and is TERRORISM.

I am very aware of the "moral standards" were different then, but that is not justifiable now. That is why NOW we should call it as an act of terrorism, and if you want you can add ", but they didn't know any better". As long as you are consistent. Al Qaida blowing themselves up in London is a terrorist act, we all agree on it, even though the terrorists are at war with England.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Then a stray German bomber accidently drops bombs on London. England revenges themselves by bombing Berlin. After that Hitler got so vexed he decided to bomb the civilian population of England,

Really? I had not heard this.

But my point is the righteous party can not be a terrorists. In all out world war there are no innocent civillians. Civillians supply their soldiers. The enemy was fighting for their very existence to the last man. Just as our countries were fighting for ours. This was evident in Japan especially. We had to destroy them utterly to save our own.

It seems that your point really is that ALL war is immoral. I disagree.

If all war was immoral then then we should not have an army. If we should not have an army then we should not have a police force. and so on.

We must be able to decide who is right and who is wrong. If we can not do that then civilization will rervert to barbarism over time.

I am sitting next to someone, as I type this that lived through WWII. I am not able to tell you on this forum, what she thinks of the idea of the bombing of Japan as being terrorism.

Originally Posted by DDT

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Then a stray German bomber accidently drops bombs on London. England revenges themselves by bombing Berlin. After that Hitler got so vexed he decided to bomb the civilian population of England,

Really? I had not heard this.

WWII has been my hobby BTW, Hitler even said that he was sad that Britian declared war on Germany and tried many times to make peace with them, because he saw them as brothers (as opposite to the Jews, Russians, etc.). I suggest "the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer. A great book!

Originally Posted by DDT

But my point is the righteous party can not be a terrorists. In all out world war there are no innocent civillians. Civillians supply their soldiers. The enemy was fighting for their very existence to the last man. Just as our countries were fighting for ours. This was evident in Japan especially. We had to destroy them utterly to save our own.

And who decides who is righteous? The victor. All combatants in WWII thought themselves as "righteous". Sorry for the klishe, but people don't kill people, guns do. If you take out the war industry of Japan, you win the war. In your thinking, one should be killing, say, iraqi citizens, so that the insurgency would end. Burn down villages that hide terrorists, right?

Another curious fact: When Germany fell, they REDOUBLED their efforts to build the bomb, because they were afraid the war would end before they were finished.

Originally Posted by DDT

It seems that your point really is that ALL war is immoral. I disagree.

I also disagree. This is not point at all. I am making a simple statement: the specific event of the atom bombs dropped on Japan is a terrorist act. I am not denouncing war in general at all!

Let me put it in another way, so you might be more agreable. It was a NECESSARY terrorist act.

Originally Posted by DDT

I am sitting next to someone, as I type this that lived through WWII. I am not able to tell you on this forum, what she thinks of the idea of the bombing of Japan as being terrorism.

I am sorry, but specifically targeting civilians to promote your military/political/religious agenda is terrorism. Life is hard! Instead of fighting the notion, agree that sometimes terrorism is necessary. It is simply a tactic.

DDT, so killing civilians is OK? I see...BTW, DDT, lots of peoples in Russia belives, what one of the pilots, who drops the A-bomb, gone insane. Is it true?

And he said let there be links!

http://www.dannen.com/decision/int-law.html#D
"Protection of Civilian Populations Against Bombing From the Air in Case of War, League of Nations, September 30, 1938"

That was an interesting link Klink ol' boy. I noticed that Roosevelt must have decided to change his mind about arial bombing after he finally joined the allied war effort though.

Originally Posted by ST

DDT, so killing civilians is OK? I see...BTW, DDT, lots of peoples in Russia belives, what one of the pilots, who drops the A-bomb, gone insane. Is it true?

I have not heard this but I have heard that certain airmen on the aircraft that dropped the bombs were troubled about it later.

The bombing of Dresden actually killed more people but I suppose that fact that one bombadier with an A bomb killing so many, was troubling.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

WWII has been my hobby BTW, Hitler even said that he was sad that Britian declared war on Germany and tried many times to make peace with them, because he saw them as brothers (as opposite to the Jews, Russians, etc.). I suggest "the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William L. Shirer. A great book!

Yes I was aware that Hitler did not want to wage war on England.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

And who decides who is righteous?

Ah, I knew that you would reply with this. I believe that humans are born with the ability to discern but over time and abuse some people lose the ability. I also think that people in general, today, are losing this ability, en masse. But this is another subject.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Another curious fact: When Germany fell, they REDOUBLED their efforts to build the bomb, because they were afraid the war would end before they were finished.

Wasn't this in response to their fear of Stalin?

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Let me put it in another way, so you might be more agreable. It was a NECESSARY terrorist act.


I am sorry, but specifically targeting civilians to promote your military/political/religious agenda is terrorism. Life is hard! Instead of fighting the notion, agree that sometimes terrorism is necessary. It is simply a tactic.

If you put it that way, I see your point. War or even violence is a terror in of itself. I suppose you could say that we tried to scare (terrorize)the Japanese into surrendering. So I guess I really dont know what we are debating about.

[quote=DDT]

Originally Posted by a true arab

IIF YOU DO NOT CARE THAT IS BECAUSE OF RACISM AND SELFISHNESS IN YOUR DEEP.

Just because I think that anyone who is gullible enough to follow Islam is the same as wearing tinfoil on your head, does not mean that I am racist.

Originally Posted by "a true arab":3op0t27o

Are you trying to be funny!!!! Your racism is so obvious. I can not keep up with you having this so polite and respectable spirit. May be this isa the way you have been broght up..
BY THE WAY BRUTALITY CAN NOT BE FOUGHT BY BRUTALITY.
REGARDS,
TNT ...SORRRRRRRY DDT

You need to loosen your hat band because that is just plain silly. How else would you fight brutality, offer yourself up as a sacrifice?[/quote:3op0t27o]

No, i do not need to do this may be you should do it. About fighting brutality: JUST ASK JAPANESE HOW DID THEY FOUGHT AMERICAN BOMBING BRUTALITY? I AM SURE YOU WILL FIND AN ANSWER!!!!

[quote=DDT]

Originally Posted by a true arab

IIF YOU DO NOT CARE THAT IS BECAUSE OF RACISM AND SELFISHNESS IN YOUR DEEP.

Just because I think that anyone who is gullible enough to follow Islam is the same as wearing tinfoil on your head, does not mean that I am racist.

Originally Posted by "a true arab":32pqmf9i

Are you trying to be funny!!!! Your racism is so obvious. I can not keep up with you having this so polite and respectable spirit. May be this isa the way you have been broght up..
BY THE WAY BRUTALITY CAN NOT BE FOUGHT BY BRUTALITY.
REGARDS,
TNT ...SORRRRRRRY DDT

You need to loosen your hat band because that is just plain silly. How else would you fight brutality, offer yourself up as a sacrifice?[/quote:32pqmf9i]

No, i do not need to do this may be you should do it. About fighting brutality: JUST ASK JAPANESE HOW DID THEY FOUGHT AMERICAN BOMBING BRUTALITY? I AM SURE YOU WILL FIND AN ANSWER!!!!

Excellent posts Kalinka!
It is nice to hear from people who know what they are talking about.
As far as I know, the A bombs were the first time(after London and Berlin and Dresden) that civilians were seen as a military target in modern times. We are not talking here collateral damage, but a well planned military and political operation.
Pearl Harbor was also a well planned operation, and the targets were military installations only!
A lot has been said about the validity or the morality of the A bombings during the past 60 years. I will not add to this debate, but raise another point.
If you have no mercy for you opponents, which is a fact of war, you should then be thankful to your allies. I have never in my life seen any serious reference to the Allies thanking the Russians for sacrificing 27 million of their own people, which is more than all the other countries' combined losses, during WW2. And from I have learned, this was not the quick deaths of the A bombings. St-Petresburg alone lost more than 800,000 civilians through starvation, illness and cold. The sadest part about this is in my view the complete ignorance or indifference of the west towards this significant fistorical fact. We all hear about, the extermination of the jewish diaspora, but why do we ignore the Russian massacres and heavy losses?
The reason I mention this is that everything is relative must be put in perspective.
Have a good day.
Bob

Well, it`s true for Soviet Union, too...where was very few info about "Western Front", so lots of peoples thinking, what Victory in WW II at 95% are made by USSR. It`s because of Cold War, I guess…it will be strange, to make Nuclear warheads agains your ex-ally, and make a good movies and books about it. But now, thanks to Hollywood movies and the Internet, we have much more points of view.

Originally Posted by ST

DDT, so killing civilians is OK? I see...BTW, DDT, lots of peoples in Russia belives, what one of the pilots, who drops the A-bomb, gone insane. Is it true?

I'm afraid it's a total myth. Here's a full crew list of "Enola Gay", with links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enola_Gay

all these guys seem to spend a long happy lives, raising children, giving interviews and not bothered much by conscience.

[quote=a true arab]

Originally Posted by Cyphyr

Originally Posted by "a true arab":2kruymeo

YES I HATE ZIONIST JEWS SOO MUCH. THEY ARE THE ONLY NATION THAT THINKS THEY ARE THE CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD AND THAT OTHERS ARE GOYIM " IN HEBREW IT HAS A NICE MEANING " AND THIS INCLUDE ALL NON JEWS. THEY ARE THE KILLERS OF PROPHETS. THEY ARE THE SPONSORS OF ALL KIND OF SOCIAL DESTROYING CHANNELS. THEY ARE THE KILLERS OF CHILDREN IN PALESTINE" YOU CAN SEE THIS ON NEWS SITES". THEY ARE A NATION OF GANGS THAT CAPTURED SOMEONE ELSE'S HOMELANDS. THEY ARE CONTROLING USA THROUGH IPAC FOR THEIR OWN GOODNESS. IN CHRISTIANITY: THEY ARE THE KILLERS OF CHRIST. " I DO NOT AGREE WITH THAT, I BELIEVE THAT JESUS HAS BEEN LIFTED TO HEAVEN AND HE WILL COME BACK AGAIN, BUT I BELIEVE THAT JEWS ARE WERE TELLING ROMANS TO CROSSIFY HIM.
JEWS ARE THE ONLY NATION THAT EOUROPEANS MADE GHEETOS FOR THEM AND YOU MAY KNOW WHY.
JEWS ARE THE NATION THAT IS FAMOUS OF BRIBERY, LIE, CONSPIRACY, AND THEY DO NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEM TO DO THE MEANEST THING IN ORDER TO GET TO THEIR GOALS WHICH ARE IN GENERAL NOT NOBLE.
ANY HUMAN BEING SHOULD HATE SUCH A NATION. MAY BE YOU ARE A JEW. IF THIS IS THE CASE YOU CAN NOT BLAME ME BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE REAL JEW'S LIFE.

That outburst sounds disturbingly like the kind of rubbish Hitler believed. True Arab, I understand the injustices that Palestinians are suffering under Israeli military rule but that sort of sentiment towards all Jews is totally unacceptable. No wonder there is no peace in the Middle East with these kind of attitudes. Looks like you're just the guy to make DDT's views seem almost reasonable.

Is there something about this place that attracts extremists??

OK LET THE JEWS GO BACK FROM WHERE THEY CAME WE WILL NOT GO AFTER THEM. WHAT IHAVE SAID ABOUT THEM IS THE REAL FACTS THAT WESTERN MEDIA TRYING TO HIDE USING ANTISEMITISM JOKE.[/quote:2kruymeo]

Originally Posted by a true arab

JEWS ARE CONTROLLING USA THROUGH WALL STREET , DIAMONDS, MEDIA AND HOLLYWOOD. THIS IS VERY CLEAR FOR ANY ONE. PLEASE, READ THE PROTOCOLS OF ZION LEADERS. IT IS A FAMOUS ZIONIST BOOK.

Well, you really are full of it, aren't you? We've all been brainwashed by Western media but you 'a true arab' know the truth Of course there is absolutely no media bias whatsoever in the Islamic world and everything you've been told is beyond question What a load of cr@p!

Like so many of the extremists and hotheads clogging up our world, you're always ready to reach for the conspiracy theory, always willing to believe the very worst story about your opponent and hardly ever prepared to look towards your own side to see what you might be doing wrong. I see from a previous thread you seem to believe Americans are carrying out the attacks on Iraqi civilians in order to make the Iraqi 'resistance' look bad. Do you realise how ridiculous you look believing such nonsense?? I guess not, in your world I'm the deluded one and you, blessed with superior powers of perception, can see what's really going on

And you want all the Jews to go back to where they came from? So you're proposing to expell over 6 million people from their homes? Firstly, this is a disgraceful and extreme position to hold, secondly, it's actually pretty dumb as well. Israel is militarily unassailable now and has nuclear weapons to guarantee its security. You had better get used to the existence of Israel whether you like it or not. The only real issue is the rights of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza and the need for them to have either their own viable state or full rights as citizens of the state of Israel. This is where the rational debate is, talking about the destruction of Israel is the kind of daft nonsense that has left the Middle East in the mess it's in today. You need to critically examine some of your own beliefs, 'True Arab', before you lash out at others.

Originally Posted by ST

Well, it`s true for Soviet Union, too...where was very few info about "Western Front", so lots of peoples thinking, what Victory in WW II at 95% are made by USSR. It`s because of Cold War, I guess..

I guess it is because of "своя рубашка ближе к телу" (self likes itself best). It is universal principle.
One studies one's own interests, pursues one's own ends.

China lost in WWII 10 millions but is it well known about the part of WWII? It is known very roughly.


Anyway, it is impossible to call in question that the USSR made main decisive contribution on the Victory over Nazi Germany.

"
Фактически на советско-германском фронте были разгромлены, уничтожены, пленены, принуждены к капитуляции почти три четверти (около 72 %) вооруженных сил Германии, более 60 % (166 из 275,5) соединений армий ее союзников.

In fact on soviet-german front there were smashed, annihilated, captivated, forced to capitulation almost three fourth (about 72%) of German armed forces, more then 60% (166 of 275,5) bodies of troops of the German allies."

See also table to compare how many German divisions and German allies were on the west front (на фронтах зап. ТВД) and on the soviet-german front (на сов-герм. фронте).

http://soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/ch ... 13_02.html


"
Таблица 156

Количество дивизий и бригад, сформированных в фашистской Германии и потерянных во Второй мировой войне в 1941-1945 гг.

В т.ч.: на сов-герм. фронте
на фронтах зап. ТВД
"

Cyphyr :

I see from a previous thread you seem to believe Americans are carrying out the attacks on Iraqi civilians in order to make the Iraqi 'resistance' look bad. Do you realise how ridiculous you look believing such nonsense?

[color=red]The ridiculous thing about this is the degree to which you think you are so smart. I do believe in this because of a lot of reports about this from neyutral parties on the net. Also, because the Iraqi resisance has declared that it has no thing to do with this. and As a resistant is far away from killing his own brothers to gain a stupid political deal. I know my nation and we do not care about the whole world if it is a matter of homeland and brothers.
Syphyr:

And you want all the Jews to go back to where they came from? So you're proposing to expell over 6 million people from their homes? Firstly, this is a disgraceful and extreme position to hold, secondly, it's actually pretty dumb as well.

What is wrong with this it is our own right to have our stolen and occupied lands back. Be fair please, you forgot about themillions of 1948 Arabs who were forced to leave these land and they can not come back till these days. You are saying it si a disgraceful and extreme position to hold. Oh my GOD, is not this soo rude and ridiculous to have double standards. May be it is DUMB because the way you evaluate things is so.
If you want to defend some one choose the right one. Do not defend colonizers and Zionist terrorists. Forget the stupid DOUBLE STANDARDS POLICY you are acting accordingly.

Syphyr:

Israel is militarily unassailable now and has nuclear weapons to guarantee its security.
[quote:i5qc1hnr]
This is the most stupid thing you posted. Israel should not have neuclear bombs because USa is caring so much about its security. THeyare using VITO always to protect this coquette child state. In addition, Arab contries do not have any MASS DESTRCTION WEAPONs to give Israel the sense of LACK of Security. THe only thing here s that Zionists are always living in terror because they are bunch of outlaws realising that what ever they do there will be a judgement day.


sylphyr:
[quote:i5qc1hnr]
only real issue is the rights of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza and the need for them to have either their own viable state or full rights as citizens of the state of Israel. This is where the rational debate is, talking about the destruction of Israel is the kind of daft nonsense that has left the Middle East in the mess it's in today. You need to critically examine some of your own beliefs, 'True Arab', before you lash out at others.

You are not up to tell us about our rights. Our land is occupied and we will take it back as long as we are after that. Palestinians are the real land owners and what you call state of Israel is just a colonization community that will be vanished as soon as possible.
I think you are so poor in History. Remember that your ancestor CRUSADERS hase occupied Palestine for more than 90 years, and we took it back. "by the GREAT HERO SALAHUDDEEN".
syphyr:

the destruction of Israel is the kind of daft nonsense

[/quote:i5qc1hnr][/quote:i5qc1hnr]
THE real nonsense is what you have put in your mind about Democratic Israel.

NO for IMPERIALISM, NO for ZIONISM, NO for OCCUPATION

http://soldat.ru/doc/casualties/book/ch ... 13_11.html
"
Людские потери противника

Сведения немецких штабов о потерях были наиболее реальными примерно до января 1945 г. Однако на последнем этапе войны, когда войска фашистской Германии терпели крупные поражения, штабной механизм вермахта утратил четкость в работе, потери стали определяться приблизительно, чаще всего на основе информации за предыдущие месяцы.
...
источниках ФРГ и других западных стран людские потери фашистской Германии во второй мировой войне существенно занижены. Их точный подсчет на государственном уровне до сих пор не осуществлен.
"

Интересен процент потерь Германии на разных театрах военных действий:

http://www.deol.ru/manclub/war/1pr.htm
"
По данным Центрального бюро учета потерь личного состава вооруженных сил при Генеральном штабе Верховного главнокомандования вооруженных сил Германии, с 1 сентября 1939 года по 31 декабря 1944 года было потеряно:
сухопутными силами вместе с войсками СС - 1.750.281 человек убитыми и умершими от ран, 1.609.698 человек пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен; военно-морским флотом - 60.029 человек убитыми и умершими от ран, 100.256 человек пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен;
военно-воздушными силами - 155.014 человек убитыми или умершими от ран, 148.450 человек пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен; итого германскими вооруженными силами - 1.965.324 человека убитыми и умершими от ран, 1.858.404 человека пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен(1).


По наиболее значимым военным кампаниям и периодам Второй мировой войны вышеуказанные потери сухопутных сил и войск СС распределяются следующим образом (2):

захват Польши (1939 год) - 16.343 человека убитыми и 320 человек пропавшими без вести;

захват Норвегии (1940 год) - 4.975 убитыми и 691 пропавшими без вести;
разгром Франции и английских экспедиционных сил, захват Бельгии, Голландии, Люксембурга (1940 год) - 45.774 убитыми и 635 пропавшими без вести;

потери на Западном театре военных действий (после разгрома Франции и до 30 мая 1944 года) - 20.512 убитыми и 2.583 пропавшими без вести;

воздушная битва за Англию (июль-октябрь 1940 года) - 1.449 убитыми и 1.914 пропавшими без вести (приведены потери только ВВС);

захват Югославии и Греции (1941 год) - 1.206 убитыми и 548 пропавшими без вести;

захват острова Крит (май 1941 года) - 2071 убитыми и 1888 пропавшими без вести;

гибель линкора "Бисмарк" (27 мая 1941 года) - 2180 убитыми и 110 взятыми в плен (потери ВМФ);

военные действия в Африке (март 1941 года - май 1943 года) - 12.808 убитыми и 90.052 пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен;

борьба с партизанами на Балканах (1941-30 ноября 1944) - 23.061 убитыми и 11.512 пропавшими без вести;

военные действия против СССР (с 22 июня 1941 года до 30 ноября 1944 года) - 1.419.728 убитыми и умершими от ран и 997.056 пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен, итого безвозвратные потери Вермахта на Восточном фронте составили 2.416.784 человека;

военные действия в Италии (с мая 1943 года до 30 ноября 1944 года) - 47.873 убитыми и 19.154 пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен;

военные действия на Западе, от момента вторжения союзников (6 июня 1944 года) и до 30 ноября 1944 года - 54.754 убитыми и 338.933 пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен;

потери, понесенные на территории собственно Германии (с 1 сентября 1939 года до 30 ноября 1944 года) - 64.055 убитыми и 1.315 пропавшими без вести;

наступление в Арденнах (декабрь 1944 года) - 12.610 убитыми и 9154 пропавшими без вести или взятыми в плен.
"

Итого,
количество убитых и умерших от ран

1,419,728 (военные действия против СССР)
*100/
1,750,281 (всего с 1 сентября 1939 года по 31 декабря 1944 года было потеряно)

=81.1%

81.1% of the killed Germans (since 1 September 1939 till 31 December 1944) falls to the share of the USSR.
This does not mean that after 31 December 1944 this percent noticeably changed. It is simple after the date German statistics lost accuracy.

Originally Posted by ST

Well, it`s true for Soviet Union, too...where was very few info about "Western Front", so lots of peoples thinking, what Victory in WW II at 95% are made by USSR. It`s because of Cold War, I guess...

I am not agree that the USSR made the same - "... where was very few info about "Western Front".

Increase from more then 80% to 95% is not like increase from less then 20% to 100%. Is part of the USSR 80% or 90% or 95% .. who knows..

less then 20% because of
"борьба с партизанами на Балканах (1941-30 ноября 1944) - 23.061 убитыми и 11.512 пропавшими без вести"
is not "Western Front".

I think the nation that's responsible for Dresden, Nagasaki, Vietnam, Iraq and many others war crimes and massacres deserves its own Nuremberg...