Thread: Why I love (and hate) dating Russian men (article)

You got wrong my words about playing game. It is not about manipulation, dishonesty etc... It is about the volume of emotions.

Well... let me try to explain myself once more.

Is it because men are afraid to face their own feelings or admit they have feelings in the first place?

Something like that but I have different formulations. Unlike traditional viewpoint I came to the idea that male feelings are normally more delicate than female ones. Here is a parallel. There are two persons (XY and XX) living together. XY has a delicate ear while XX is almost deaf but enjoy some loud sound and pump up the volume of their sound center to maximum for 24h per day minus sleeping. XY tries to ask XX to low down the volume and make some pauses in overwhelming noise but XX does not hear not because XX is so bad but because XX is naturally almost deaf and unable to hear the low voice of XY. As a result the hearing of XY gets spoiled, XY turns goofy but still suffer and sometimes can even burst in violence if not learned to restrain oneself. Now replace the "sound" with "emotions" and you get what I mean. Sometimes we need to rest in quiet without enforced brutal emotions.

Well, that was way exaggerated but to make a picture...

Originally Posted by it-ogo

You got wrong my words about playing game. It is not about manipulation, dishonesty etc... It is about the volume of emotions.

Well... let me try to explain myself once more.



Something like that but I have different formulations. Unlike traditional viewpoint I came to the idea that male feelings are normally more delicate than female ones. Here is a parallel. There are two persons (XY and XX) living together. XY has a delicate ear while XX is almost deaf but enjoy some loud sound and pump up the volume of their sound center to maximum for 24h per day minus sleeping. XY tries to ask XX to low down the volume and make some pauses in overwhelming noise but XX does not hear not because XX is so bad but because XX is naturally almost deaf and unable to hear the low voice of XY. As a result the hearing of XY gets spoiled, XY turns goofy but still suffer and sometimes can even burst in violence if not learned to restrain oneself. Now replace the "sound" with "emotions" and you get what I mean. Sometimes we need to rest in quiet without enforced brutal emotions.

Well, that was way exaggerated but to make a picture...

I can see the point you are making, but I don't agree that all women are more emotional than men. I've met men who were much more reactionary and emotional than myself. Usually the dominant male emotion tends to be anger and the reaction can be sudden and completely unexpected, especially if you accidentally hurt their fragile egos. It doesn't matter to the man if you hurt them unintentionally or not, he is going to want revenge and he is going to intentionally hurt the hell out of you. Not all men, of course, but too many in my experience.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I can see the point you are making, but I don't agree that all women are more emotional than men. I've met men who were much more reactionary and emotional than myself. Usually the dominant male emotion tends to be anger and the reaction can be sudden and completely unexpected, especially if you accidentally hurt their fragile egos. It doesn't matter to the man if you hurt them unintentionally or not, he is going to want revenge and he is going to intentionally hurt the hell out of you. Not all men, of course, but too many in my experience.

Yep, but male strong emotions are short (and dangerous in extreme) and when they passed you are again friends (if survived both) while female ones are lasting (and exhausing in extreme). We are still different, no?

As for manipulations... Men often are happy to be manipulated. To some degree, in some situations. For example if he avoids to make a decision which concerns you both and avoids to discuss it, most probably it means that he will accept your decision and will be grateful to you if you make it in a form that does not hurt his ego. In the form of manipulation. And if you in your decision still account for his interests in favor of yours he may be even more grateful to you for a long term. Often men understand everything but don't want to discuss. Just like dogs.

Just like dogs.

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Specifically in Russia, women historically favor pilots, doctors, cooks and crooks))

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Yep, but male strong emotions are short (and dangerous in extreme) and when they passed you are again friends (if survived both) while female ones are lasting (and exhausing in extreme). We are still different, no?

Oh I can't say I agree with that generalization at all. I've encountered men who hold very, very long grudges! That anger isn't always a short burst. It can last for years and take the form of nonstop revenge. You may think you are "friends" again, but in reality he's just waiting for the next opportunity to stick in the knife. Don't tell me that's not true because I have experienced it. On the contrary, women who fight with each other will often make up, talk for hours and lick each others' wounds so to speak, and then become close friends afterwards! I am still best buddies with a girl who I got into a fight with years ago. On the other hand, I have dealt with some very hateful males in the workplace and elsewhere, who never, never let go of their anger or hurt feelings and did their best to make my life miserable for YEARS.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Oh I can't say I agree with that generalization at all.

As I said already, I admit that individual differences are bigger than gender-based ones. Still there are tendencies.

Here is my view: Sadly, game playing works ALL TOO WELL with men. Men are very easy to manipulate. (no doubt women are too, but that's a different story).

The problem is that manipulation and Cosmo style dating tricks are a self-defeating tactic in the long run!
If you pretend you are something you are not, and win a man's affections on those grounds, you will then be stuck in that type of behaviour forever (particularly if you get married). Alternatively, things will fall apart once you can no longer keep the pretense up, or the man sees the real you behind the facade. So it's NOT a good idea to use manipulative tactics unless you can keep the game up indefinitely. Who wants to be an actress for the rest of her life, 24/7 ? However, it's very easy to get drawn into such behaviour because it's so deceptively easy and it works so well. Thanks to the "self-help" industry, there are even books and seminars outlining these sly tactics. But my advice is: Stay away from it or use it very restrictively!

Another observation on these lines, is that (in no particular order) pornography, feminism, Hollywood, sexual liberation, computer games and general moral decline has just about killed real romance. I think both genders are suffering from serious confusion and nobody quite knows what's expected of them, or even what they want... I think these things I just listed has brought out the worst sides in many men, to the detriment of women.

There is a funny Russian comedy from the 1980s which was recommended by one of the ladies here at MR, about this kind of behaviour: "Самая обаятельная и привлекательная".

Silly but funny...

American film: "How to lose a guy in 10 days". Complex plot in which a woman does the opposite to everything you are "supposed" to do with men, in order to prove a point for the magazine she works for. Being a Hollywood film, he loves her anyway...

I consider myself a feminist, but then again, my idea of feminism is not the same as the feminism I've heard some people describe. Do I think women should have as much opportunity to pursue their dreams as men? Yes! Do I think a woman should have to act like a man to achieve those dreams? No.

I never enjoyed wearing suits with extra wide shoulders to look more "masculine" in the workplace. I never burned my bras, either, though I admit the darn things make me uncomfortable and I don't wear them at home. My husband has not complained

I think if a guy is really into a woman it doesn't matter how she acts, so a woman may as well be authentic and the right man will be attracted to her for what she is!

Originally Posted by Deborski

I consider myself a feminist, but then again, my idea of feminism is not the same as the feminism I've heard some people describe. Do I think women should have as much opportunity to pursue their dreams as men? Yes! Do I think a woman should have to act like a man to achieve those dreams? No.

I never enjoyed wearing suits with extra wide shoulders to look more "masculine" in the workplace. I never burned my bras, either, though I admit the darn things make me uncomfortable and I don't wear them at home. My husband has not complained

I think if a guy is really into a woman it doesn't matter how she acts, so a woman may as well be authentic and the right man will be attracted to her for what she is!

I'm with you. When women become like men, mentally, and consider that to be feminism, then where's the liberation?
I really struggle with the macho competition at work. It's hard work to live up to the MALE norm in order to be successful. It's psychologically exhausting. I don't think it's emotionally healthy. It's also quite obvious that it's a relationship wrecker and, I believe, to an extent, a turnoff for men. We can't re-program the male brain just because we want a career. Also, taking on male characteristics all day at work, how do you suddenly just drop that mindset when you come home? It's practically schizophrenia...

LIkewise men who twist around themselves to prove how politically correct they are. I doubt any of the Russians here do that, but certainly in many other countries there are men who claim to be "feminist" etc. But I don't need another girlfriend in a man's body! I need a man who has different strengths than me. I believe men and women should complement and respect each other, not compete with each other. Women are not the weaker vessels, our strengths are just different and deserve equal recognition.

To me, feminism is being able to be a woman and have my feminine strengths valued equally highly as male strengths. Feminism is not about running around in stilettos hurting your feet and being easy prey. It's not about sleeping around and selling yourself cheaply. It's not about trying to beat men at their own game and being bound to lose out in the end, anyway.

I just think women should be paid equally as men, but should not have to turn into men.

On the other hand, I also support women in jobs which have been considered "men only" in the past. If some women dream of being firefighters, and they can handle the job, then I don't have a problem with that either. I've known a few female firefighters who were excellent at their jobs and every bit as courageous as the men. Not all firefighters need to have brute strength, but most of these girls are naturally very strong.

As a TV reporter, I battled sexism every day and that was tough. I heard men say things like "we need to get the broads out of broadcasting" and so on. Sexist jokes, people assuming I couldn't do my job because I was female, etc. I still managed to win two Emmy Awards during my career because my writing and storytelling were compelling, and that was what mattered. I think having women in the workplace has made the workplace better in a lot of ways. Women have a different perspective than men, and they see "outside of the box" so to speak, so new innovations and new ways of thinking are made possible.

I do think that the earlier generations of feminists had to act more masculine because they were simply not accepted by the all-male workforce otherwise. But since they paved the way for us, these days women are starting to be more feminine and natural while continuing to work. That's a huge relief to me! It is still very difficult for women in non-traditional jobs though, such as police work and so on. One of my close female friends worked as a corrections officer in maximum security prisons and she was one tough girl! She was very small, but she was well trained and she knew how to use leverage in a fight. She was attacked once by a prisoner who weighed about three times more than she did and she ended up on his back, with his face smashed into the floor. So even though she weighed less, she knew how to use his greater weight against him.

It isn't the sort of job I would want to do, personally, but she took a lot of pride in it and I supported her.

What is the name of the Russian movie you posted above with the "cамая обаятельная и привлекательная" scene? It looked like it would be fun to watch.

Originally Posted by Deborski

What is the name of the Russian movie you posted above with the "cамая обаятельная и привлекательная" scene? It looked like it would be fun to watch.

That's the actual title of the film. It's a really nice film, I enjoyed it. One of many Russian films from that era with realistic and interesting female characters.
If you go to rutracker.org and and search for it.. Or buy the DVD

I work in IT, so I've had that same stuff you describe, from day 1. "Women can't code" etc. In reality there is absolutely no difference in performance technically. Men are usually bolder with their solutions, and more prone to blow their own horn.
It's a rare day that I meet a woman in IT that I can really relate to, but occassionally it happens, like right now for example, I have a good friend.

I've accepted that I can't (and don't particularly want to) break the glass ceiling. I don't want to check my work emails at midnight and again on Saturday morning. I don't want to be constantly on my blackberry and I would never want to go golfing with a bunch of pretentious and ego-inflated IT executives. I hate outsourcing and I think that software development is an art. So I'm just not cut out for the upper echelons, even if I could elbow my way in, as the token woman on the board.

I hear that! I got off the crazy career train a while ago when the news business started caring more about what was "sexy" than they did about facts. My last day in the biz, I pitched a story about a deaf woman who was petitioning to get apartments to update their fire alarms so that they would flash lights and not just make loud noises. The news director told me the story was "boring" and that "deaf people don't make up our demographic" and so he assigned me a more "important" story: The weather. They made me stand on the roof of the studio holding a giant thermometer so I could talk about how hot it was outside and how moving over into the shade would help keep you cool. I walked out the next day and told them all to go to hell

As for men tooting their own horn at work, I noticed that men tended to only put in extra effort when they were trying to get a promotion, but the rest of the time they were lazy butts, while I was consistently working my tail off every day. But guess who usually got promoted? Hint: It was the men. There was also one female manager I had who treated all of her male employees like little princes and was always scolding and demotivating her female employees. The men all flirted with her and she was like a queen bee, basking in their attention. Disgusting! If women do not figure out how to start helping each other at work, instead of stomping all over each other, they are never going to break that glass ceiling you speak of. Men have always had an "old boys club" where they pat each other on the back, help each other out, and give each other promotions, etc. It's high time women did the same thing instead of treating work like some kind of beauty pageant where they need to stab all the other girls in the back.

Well, back on topic: Since I'm single -- yeah, I definitely think I could fall for a Russian man. No doubt about it. But then again, somebody's nationality is more of an afterthought, isn't it? I was once extremely attracted to a colleague who was Serbian (they're a bit like Russians, I guess, lol) --a colleague. The circumstances were wrong, but I really, really liked everything about him and I could tell it was reciprocated. That rarely happens to me (I mean just getting very physically attracted to a man in that way). Ice queen, lol.

I got quite a lot of male attention when I stayed at a sanatorium in Belarus. (I'd say there might be a bit a of a difference between Belarussians and Russians though). Gosh there was quite a lot of flirting going on there! It wouldn't surprise me if some of the people went there to actually meet someone, have a flirt or whatever! Divorcees in their 30s and 40s. So if anyone wanted to meet a Russian man 30+ then they should definitely check in to a sanatorium. Nice, relaxing, totally unpretentious, healthy, interesting and a language immersion. If you are half decent looking you will be chatted up. But watch out for the married men!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well, back on topic: Since I'm single -- yeah, I definitely think I could fall for a Russian man. No doubt about it. But then again, somebody's nationality is more of an afterthought, isn't it? I was once extremely attracted to a colleague who was Serbian (they're a bit like Russians, I guess, lol) --a colleague. The circumstances were wrong, but I really, really liked everything about him and I could tell it was reciprocated. That rarely happens to me (I mean just getting very physically attracted to a man in that way). Ice queen, lol.

I got quite a lot of male attention when I stayed at a sanatorium in Belarus. (I'd say there might be a bit a of a difference between Belarussians and Russians though). Gosh there was quite a lot of flirting going on there! It wouldn't surprise me if some of the people went there to actually meet someone, have a flirt or whatever! Divorcees in their 30s and 40s. So if anyone wanted to meet a Russian man 30+ then they should definitely check in to a sanatorium. Nice, relaxing, totally unpretentious, healthy, interesting and a language immersion. If you are half decent looking you will be chatted up. But watch out for the married men!

Hanna, I was in love with a Russian man in my 20's! It was an impossible situation though. Soviet times. It was not condoned if you know what I mean. There were powers greater than both of us which made the whole thing "нельзя". Those damn feelings never went away, either. I connected with him on the internet a couple years back and was shocked to discover that all the old feelings were still there! Clearly he felt something too, because he started flirting with me, telling me how beautiful I was and reminding me of the time we almost kissed. It was crazy. I felt like I was in my 20's again. It wreaked havoc on my marriage too, and so we had to break off contact. I never would have imagined that I still had feelings for him, or I would not have connected with him again. I felt secure in my marriage, but the moment I heard his voice on the phone, it was like being transported instantly back in time and all those feelings came flooding back. It was overwhelming! Love is a really, REALLY powerful thing. Unfortunately, our cultures are so far apart (American and Russian) in some ways, that it probably never would have worked out in the first place. Of course, I wish we could have at least had a chance to find out. But there is nothing I can do to change the past, so I decided to write a book about it. I may as well do something productive while I get him out of my system, right? LOL

PS - by the way, I know what "sanatorium" means in Russia, but it means a very different thing in the US. In America, a sanatorium is a home for people who are mentally disturbed.

Originally Posted by Deborski

wreaked havoc on my marriage too, and so we had to break off contact.

omg, you continue to surprise me! Would never have guessed that you were married when you went there, lol....
He must have been quite surprised when he realised you were relocating to the USSR!?
I thought I was independent, but you are in a league of your own! It's very fascinating

As for feminism: I don't have a consistent view on that - I vary in my views on it. I can't really say anything categorical about it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

omg, you continue to surprise me! Would never have guessed that you were married when you went there, lol....
He must have been quite surprised when he realised you were relocating to the USSR!?
I thought I was independent, but you are in a league of your own! It's very fascinating

No, no, I wasn't married when I went to the USSR. Maybe I didn't say that clearly enough. I was single, in my 20's and had feelings for one of the Russian guys I worked with, but it was "нельзя" - unsanctioned.

By the time I reconnected with the Russian guy, 20 years later, I was married to Ben, my all-American husband, and reconnecting with the Russian guy wreaked havoc on our marriage because all the old feelings came back like a tsunami rolling through my heart. It made me question everything, doubt everything, and basically put me in a very dark place for a couple years. But I'm over it now. Moved on. Told that Russian guy "прощай" and am trying to work out things with my husband, who has been extremely understanding and forgiving of this whole mess.

Im only half russian, so maybe thats the solution. lol

I'm feeling cognitive dissonance when reading that article.
As for me, the article contains a bunch of mutually exclusive statements, and I hardly understand how a person can draw such conclusions as the author did.

She expects a man to be gentle and respectful to his woman and at the same time passionate in bed. She also expects a man not to be rude and jealous. Fairly reasonable desire! So what's the problem?
IMHO, the problem is that she just doesn't believe such a man can exist. And instead of believing in her ideal and trying to find it, she engages in relationships with all those strange "patriarchal alpha males".
As it-ogo already said, "What you like is what you get". Looks like she likes to disappoint herself.

Let's have a look at the image of a "patriarchal" Russian man she draws. In a nutshell, he is:
* gentleman; behaves respectfully and has good manners
* passionate and sexual
* rude, jealous and ignorant

Can you see any contradictions? I see two ones.

First, could a real gentleman be rude and ignorant? I think the answer is obvious: he couldn't!
Second, how can it be that being a gentleman is called "patriarchal style" now? I don't know what's going on in USA, maybe they actually have some problems with that insane feminism etc. If I were told that from American point of view being a gentleman and having good manners is patriarchal, I would decide something is totally wrong with America.

As far as I can remember, feminism is about equality of rights, not about being unmannered jerks. Feminism is a result of development of our civilization: the same civilization that teaches us to be kind and respectful to each other. So gentleman's attitude does not conflict with feminism and is not "patriarchal".
In fact, any educated reasonable person in the modern world is a feminist "by default". We all grown up in the same cultural context: kindness, honesty, human rights, science, arts etc. So if a person smart enough, he/she is able to decide by him/herself that equality of rights is a Good Idea. Even if he/she has never listened the word "feminism".

But something went wrong. Feminism mutated from idea of human rights into a bloodthirsty monster, who requires us to sacrifice all our conceptions of friendship, love, respect and honor. When did we take the wrong turn to that weird way where idea of "take care of each other" became patriarchal and idea of "disregard each other" became acceptable?
That's disappointing!


But enough whining. Let's go back to "alpha males" stories.
"You do not meet a Russian man, you are chosen by one. You could be sitting in a banya, or at a café..."
Uh... Well... Ok. But I have some questions. What kind of men and women make acquaintance in a banya? The answer is obvious, isn't it? And how did the decent girl get in a banya with some strangers? Maybe should her not be waiting to be chosen by a pick-up man in a banya, but take a few steps to meet somebody by herself? Did she ever try?

The similar questions I'd like to ask on those "doing business-just-business" men too. We all understand what kind of men they are, don't we? The only thing I don't understand is her reason to meet with them. But if she does, there is nothing surprising in the fact those "alpha males" are rude and ignorant. Gangsters usually are.

The same with the story of "standing on a dirt path in a Russian country village". The same with the story of being harassed for years. And so on.
All those men didn't arise from nowhere, she allowed them to appear in her life. They "chosen" her with her consent.


That all is not about patriarchal society, alpha males or Russian mentality. That is about здравый смысл.
Don't get in a sauna with strangers, if you don't want to be raped.
Don't mess with gangsters.
Don't walk at night with a person you couldn't completely trust.
Don't tell your phone number to odd people.
Simple and resonable rules, whatever country you live in.


And one more thing. When I looked at the clock last time, there was 21st Century there. Facebook, twitter, skype, dating services, laptops, iphones, all that stuff, you know. I just wonder what the hell she has to hang around pick-up men, gangsters and villagers to be chosen by someone. We live such a wonderful time when one can make acquaintance with thousands of people around the world without leaving oneself's home. So why?

Maybe my words sound too offensive. I'd like to clarify I have nothing against her and I don't blame her for her troubles. That woman seems to be unhappy, so I'd like to wish her to be happy with a man she looking for. My point is that her conclusions about Russian men are totally wrong because of her strange attitude and limited experience.


First of all, there is no patriarchal society in big cities. But there are people who knows how to take care of his/her partner. And I don't think it is a patriarchal tradition. I'm sure such people there are in USA too, although the author of the article does not seem to believe that.
Maybe villagers can be named as patriarchal society, and I think this society presents in any country. If you drive off from big American cities for a hundred of miles, you'll find the same patriarchal society there. Won't you?

So we are not patriarchal. We are European people, maybe somewhat angered because of our recent history, but we are. And as in any other country, there are all sectors of society here. If you want to meet with gangsters, there are gangsters; if you want to meet with intellectuals, there are intellectuals.

I believe no one of my female friends encounter troubles similar to ones she described. Of course, not all of them happily married, but I hardly can imagine one of them could be tolerant to such replies as "What were you doing talking to that guy? Did I tell you you could talk to him?!" That is absolutely no-no.
For sure, there are lot of men who behaves such unpleasant way. And there are a lot of women who likes such behaviour. So if they can find each other and be happy, that is fine. But in my environment and in the environment of my friends, there are no such people.

One shouldn't think all Russian can be described with a couple of cliches.