Thread: Looking for language exchange

Originally Posted by kgcole

Sounds like I may have to remember that just as I do the oddities of certain prepositions....like "у" or "в" not really corresponding literally to the English understanding. Could be as you say, none of the other cases make sense to use....lol

There are four other functions of the instrumental case along with its main function of denoting the instrument. Still none of them describes that of “поделиться мыслями”. Yet it is certainly used correctly in this example. Поделиться хлебом, радостью, идеями, соображениями, мнениями, знаниями. That’s for sure.

Instrumental case - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you explain or rephrase your expression "to do the oddities", please? To except the oddities?

Helen "as I do" means "as I have to remember" (the oddities of...)
The verb Do is a dummy-word for the phrase "have to remember".
I bet you knew that.

kgcole
I think it's a good idea to memorize verbs along with the case they usually ask for.
Within a meaningful context, preferrably.

Я хочу поделиться с тобой своей радостью.
I want to share my joy with you.

делиться / поделиться / разделить / разделять с кем-либо needs instrumental and the preposition.
This is how you're refferring to the person you would like to share something with.

делиться / поделиться чем-либо needs instrumental too.
This is how you're refferring to the object to be shared.

делить / поделить / разделить / разделять что-либо needs accusative.
This is how you're refferring to the object to be shared.

That said, you can also compose something like "Я хочу разделить с тобой мою радость".
(which means almost the same as the sentence above with so miniscule difference that it isn't even worth mentioning)

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I think делить / поделить / разделить / разделять чем-либо needs instrumental because we can say something like:
Я разделила торт ножом. I divided the cake with a knife. The knife serves as a tool. That's why instrumental.

Another crazy idea that just struck my mind is the following:

Take a look at these two sentences:

Я сражаюсь мечом.
Я делюсь радостью.

I think the tool- or means- idea behind the sword is quite obvious, but we can also treat joy as a tool for "sharing",
like I take my joy and "share" it to you

(But seriously, it's literally like I take my joy, divide it into two pieces and give one of them to you, that's why these words have the same stem, I amuse you by means of my joy)

Originally Posted by Helenej

American? Hmm… Perhaps I should ask my mom if she sinned with a Yankee.

Nah, I think it's just coming to you naturally...lol

Originally Posted by Helenej

Can you explain or rephrase your expression "to do the oddities", please? To except the oddities?

What I was referring to was the fact that for a native speaker of English, the use of "у" can be disconcerting. For instance in English we say "I have...", and in Russian you say "at me is...". It's odd for us to learn, but we have to just memorize it and understand how it is used when speaking Russian. It may be the same with the instrumental case here...it seems odd, but it's just the way it is, and has to be accepted that way.

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

That said, you can also compose something like "Я хочу разделить с тобой мою радость".
(which means almost the same as the sentence above with so miniscule difference that it isn't even worth mentioning)

That’s what I find disconcerting about the phrase, Eugene. To me, it’s natural to say "Я хочу разделить с тобой мою радость". Here in this next phrase it’s the verb+preposition and instrumental…“…делиться со мной…”; what I don’t understand is why it’s not “…делиться со мной своих мысли”? Instead, it’s “…делиться со мной своими мыслями.” I’m trying to reason it out….

Basically the main idea behind the words with "делить" is division.

Here are some of the concept meanings of the words:


Делить - I take something and divide it into parts.

Разделять - I do the делить and then treat the pieces as standalone things.
(Same as "I can understand your oppinion = Я разделяю твоё мнение = I divide your opinion and take a part of it because I feel comfortable with it")

Отделять - I cut off (divide) a part of something, grab it and forget about the rest.

---

Делиться - I do the делить to myself. That's the way an amoeba behaves.
Another one is that I do the делить to something I have and then give one or more of the parts to someone.

Разделяться - Something does the делить to itself and forgets that there was a time when it was a whole.
This happens when a group divides into smaller groups. Compare with разделять.

Отделяться - I do the делить and associate myself with one of the parts. That happens when I отделяюсь from a group of people. Compare with отделять.

why it’s not “…делиться со мной своих мысли”? Instead, it’s “…делиться со мной своими мыслями.”

All I can say is that it's because of the "ся" at the end of the word. Verbs with "ся" work a bit differently.

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

Another crazy idea that just struck my mind is the following:

I think the tool- or means- idea behind the sword is quite obvious, but we can also treat joy as a tool for "sharing",
like I take my joy and "share" it to you

Wait, I think I may understand what you're saying....it's like "…делиться со мной своими мыслями." literally means "...by my thoughts I share with you?" It a strange way that sort of makes sense to me...lol. At least that's closer to understanding than I was before! haha

Wait, I think I may understand what you're saying....it's like "…делиться со мной своими мыслями." literally means "...by my thoughts I share with you?" It a strange way that sort of makes sense to me...lol. At least that's closer to understanding than I was before! haha

Yeah that was the impression I intended to create

Well, luckily we managed to find some kind of logic in this particular case but there are a lot issues that can seem illogical to you like:

Забыться (тяжёлым) сном
Идти лесом / горами
Пробираться кустами
Оказаться умным парнем
Родиться крепким ребёнком,
and so on.

I think even native Russians can't explain the reason why the instrumental case is used for these and like. So I just suggest that you simply memorize a verb along with the case it needs, not wracking your brains around the reason why, just like I already mentioned in my post #82. I think it's going to spare you a lot of effort and brain cells

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

I think even native Russians can't explain the reason why the instrumental case is used for these and like. So I just suggest that you simply memorize a verb along with the case it needs, not wracking your brains around the reason why, just like I already mentioned in my post #82. I think it's going to spare you a lot of effort and brain cells

Do you know of a resource that would list verbs like that, along with their respective case requirements?

Originally Posted by kgcole

Do you know of a resource that would list verbs like that, along with their respective case requirements?

I think I found something interesting.
http://www.interword.se/Syntax/Lekti...al_Rektion.pdf

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

Helen "as I do" means "as I have to remember" (the oddities of...)
The verb Do is a dummy-word for the phrase "have to remember".
I bet you knew that.

Женя, I still don't understand. What is the Russian for "I do the oddities of certain prepositions"?

Originally Posted by Helenej

I think I found something interesting.
http://www.interword.se/Syntax/Lekti...al_Rektion.pdf

Thanks Helene...I'll look it over when I get a chance

Лена, в оригинальном предложении было I may have to remember that just as I do the oddities of certain prepositions

Это та же самая конструкция, тот же самый принцип подставления DO вместо главного глагола.
Типа I love her as much as you do.
В итоге всё это можно перевести так:
Кажется, мне придётся держать это в памяти, так же как и (мне приходится держать в памяти) странности некоторых предлогов (у, в)

kgcole
Try this: http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D1%81%...93/#post238659

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

Лена, в оригинальном предложении было I may have to remember that just as I do the oddities of certain prepositions

Это та же самая конструкция, тот же самый принцип подставления DO вместо главного глагола.
Типа I love her as much as you do.
В итоге всё это можно перевести так:
Кажется, мне придётся держать это в памяти, так же как и (мне приходится держать в памяти) странности некоторых предлогов (у, в)

А-а-а. Теперь понятно. Спасибо.
Насколько в русском легче, когда предложения в составе сложного разделяются запятыми.

Originally Posted by Eugene-p

kgcole
Try this: http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D1%81%...93/#post238659

Зачем изобретать велосипед? Посмотри 93-ий пост, я там накопала уже готовое.