Thread: Что происходит в Украине? События, новости.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ну, типа чтобы избежать большой драки.[/I]

Какое государство мы называем независимым? На самом деле, есть только один фактор - способность вести сдерживающую политику в отношении соседей. В 90% случаев это экономика (в общем смысле, в том числе способность прокормить и обеспечить лояльность собственной армии, обеспечить занятость населения и т. п. НЕЗАВИСИМО ни от кого).
Поэтому, когда кто-то называет территорию, размером с пятачок, полностью зависимую от внешних связей и поддержки соседней России "независимой" мне становится смешно.
Ну, можно ещё Монако назвать независимым государством, Люксембург там, Андорру, можно ещё назвать независимыми Абхазию и Южную Осетию, но ведь это же бред!

Объяви сейчас Крым о своей независимости (при сохранении Россией нейтралитета), что будет? Через неделю там будут тысячи "туристов" из Турции.
Давайте называть вещи своими именами. Речь идёт о вхождении Крыма в состав РФ. Второй вопрос, надо ли это России?
Надо взвесить все плюсы и минусы. Во-первых, в случае противостояния с Украиной, Крым придётся снабжать по морю и по воздуху, причём неограниченно долгое время, а это очень дорого, в том числе и для жителей Крыма. Ну а во-вторых, экономических выгод от вхождения Крыма в Россию не так уж и много, а вот от всевозможных гадостей наших европейских и американских "друзей" отбоя не будет. "Независимость" Крыма выгодна Турции и США, как ни странно. Ещё бы - получить в распоряжение такой плацдарм! Понятно, что Россия этого не допустит никогда, вот и решайте, что лучше - оставить Крым пророссийской автономией в составе Украины или сдать его туркам?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Какое государство мы называем независимым? На самом деле, есть только один фактор - способность вести сдерживающую политику в отношении соседей. В 90% случаев это экономика (в общем смысле, в том числе способность прокормить и обеспечить лояльность собственной армии, обеспечить занятость населения и т. п. НЕЗАВИСИМО ни от кого).
Поэтому, когда кто-то называет территорию, размером с пятачок, полностью зависимую от внешних связей и поддержки соседней России "независимой" мне становится смешно.

Ну, смешно - не смешно, а тот же Кипр на такие подвиги тоже сильно не способен. Однако ж - республика. Ибо, английские базы.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Ну, можно ещё Монако назвать независимым государством, Люксембург там, Андорру, можно ещё назвать независимыми Абхазию и Южную Осетию, но ведь это же бред!

Дело не в том, чтобы назвать свинью птицей чтобы она полетела, а в том, чтобы не утратить статус какой-никакой захудалой автономии. Но, даже сейчас, парламент Крыма принимает какие-то там решения, а реальные начальники всё равно назначаются из Киева. Оно крымчанам надо?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Объяви сейчас Крым о своей независимости (при сохранении Россией нейтралитета), что будет? Через неделю там будут тысячи "туристов" из Турции.

Для начала, туристам из Турции придётся договориться с туристами как минимум из Украины и России, у которых туристы не менее любознательны. На этом равновесии вполне можно стоять неопределённо долгое время.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Давайте называть вещи своими именами. Речь идёт о вхождении Крыма в состав РФ. Второй вопрос, надо ли это России?.

А нужно ли было строить лыжные трассы в Сочи, если в России есть намного более снежные места, естественным образом приспособленные для развития зимних видов спорта?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Во-первых, в случае противостояния с Украиной, Крым придётся снабжать по морю и по воздуху, причём неограниченно долгое время, а это очень дорого, в том числе и для жителей Крыма.

На самом деле (тм), Крым очень легко защищать. Ибо Перекопский перешеек, а море полностью контролируется Черноморским флотом уже сейчас. Кроме того, поставь себя на сторону Украины, есть ли у неё средствА вести войну на истощение захват и удержание Крыма? Скорее всего, всё ограничится блокадой и ругательствами.
И потом, а как снабжается Кипр?

И потом, Черноморский флот же никуда не денется. Значит, чем платить втридорога Украине, дешевле заплатить непосредственно Крыму с типа "гарантиями безопасности". И политического геморроя меньше.

На Кипре насчитывается четыре эксклава, принадлежащие британским суверенным базам Акротири и Декелия.

Бедный Крым, его все захотят, включая Турцию ( http://an.crimea.ua/page/news/56137/ ) и
Китай ( http://xn--b1ae2adf4f.xn--p1ai/analy...y-v-kpymu.html ).

Originally Posted by Lampada

Бедный Крым, его все захотят, включая Турцию ( http://an.crimea.ua/page/news/56137/ ) и
Китай ( Киев в дыму, Китай в Крыму... - П ).

За что боролись на то и напоролись? Нет?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Бедный Крым, его все захотят, включая Турцию ( http://an.crimea.ua/page/news/56137/ )

Дык, Турция и Кипр до сих пор хочет:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Турция, в свою очередь, не признаёт существование Республики Кипр. 10 ноября 2013 года премьер-министр Турции Тайип Эрдоган во время визита в Польшу, помимо прочего, заявил: «Не существует страны, которая называется Кипр. Есть местная администрация на юге Кипра. Но есть также северный Кипр и «зеленая линия» между ними»^[7].

Вот такое вот распространяют (в целом, создание Украинской Федерации - хороший компромисс в сложившейся ситуации, но это компромисс):

Крым уже решил выйти из состава Украины.
ВЫпущенные из киевских тюрем психи уже грозятся напасть. Пока - на словах.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Крым уже решил выйти из состава Украины.

В источнике (заявлении ВС АРК) говорится лишь о защите статуса автономии, а не о выходе из состава. Пока что речь идет о постановке этого вопроса на всекрымский референдум.

А тем временем у Киевских революционеров уже свои Швондеры появились:

Originally Posted by Basil77

А тем временем у Киевских революционеров уже свои Швондеры появились:

Изображение с объявлением о реквизировании жилой площади у гражданского населения

Есть немало мнений, что это подделка, так как картинка в интернете ходит исключительно цифровая, скана реального объявления с дома нигде не было.
В любом случае, вряд ли можно ждать чего-то хорошего от организации, чей лидер открыто говорит, что будет использовать ресурсы СБУ для подавления восточных регионов и против РФ.

I don't even have words for what's happening in Ukraine. It's such a tragedy. Kiev - such a gorgeous and impressive city with friendly people, all smashed up and destroyed by idiots! Not saying they didn't have valid points, but there was an election in ONE years time for goodness sake.

What's up with It-Ogo, gromoZeka and others from Ukraine? Please everyone there, share your views on all this!
You are on the minds of everyone in Europe with a heart at the moment.
Who's going to clean up the cities and how many people are going to prison....
What do you want for the future and what do you think about what's happened?

I am worried that Ukrainians have been manipulated and made the situation worse not better. I realise that Yanukovich was corrupt, and I thought his house was ridiculously extravagant and tacky. But is he worse than the opposition? Was he so bad and useless that it was necessary to have a "revolution" when it's only 1 year left to legitimate democratic elections?

Look at Romania, it's in the EU and it's no better off than Ukraine, I'd say it's poorer, and it's very corrupt according to locals there. And now, all the young people and educated people are trying to move abroad.

In two words - the inept government's policy (its absence, in fact) led to a coup performed by the most extremist and nationalistic part of the population.

Originally Posted by Ramil

In two words - the inept government's policy (its absence, in fact) led to a coup performed by the most extremist and nationalistic part of the population.

I don't like these accusations sometimes coming from Russian media about various ex Soviet republics inhabitants being nazis and fascists etc. Doesn't seem fair or reasonable to bring up events from the War... So I thought it was exaggerated and rather irritating that they'd sink so low as to bring this up.

But then I saw pictures of some kind of Ukrainian organisation with people who had actually styled uniforms emblems on a swastika, making nazi salutes and certainly giving the impression of actually being Nazis.... Not to mention things they were saying.
Loitering around the "Maidan" and pestering people.
Pretty shocking. Real nazis involved in a coup d'etat.

Nobody in Germany ought to support anybody involved with that (yes mrs merkel) since it's strictly illegal there to have anything to do with Nazism. But several German ministers have gone to Ukraine and cheered these people on. And now they are going to treat Julia Timoshenko for some unspecified illness.

I shouldn't be blabbering about this though, because I really don't know enough about the background, the events themselves, or what would be the best way forward. So I'll shut up and read what those with more insight have to say.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Nobody in Germany ought to support anybody involved with that (yes mrs merkel) since it's strictly illegal there to have anything to do with Nazism.

But who's going to show to the Germans those 'unpleasant' pictures? No, they will see staged photos of beautiful young people who proclaim 'universal values' and freedom for all people.
Just look at the beginning of this thread, at those photos and videos that I and Lampada posted. It's very educating - a small 'handmade' informational war was going on. The Europeans will see only what Lampada posted and they will probably say that my examples are a forgery of some kind or at least biased.

Originally Posted by Ramil

But who's going to show to the Germans those 'unpleasant' pictures? No, they will see staged photos of beautiful young people who proclaim 'universal values' and freedom for all people.
Just look at the beginning of this thread, at those photos and videos that I and Lampada posted. It's very educating - a small 'handmade' informational war was going on. The Europeans will see only what Lampada posted and they will probably say that my examples are a forgery of some kind or at least biased.

Oh that's a DIFFERENT Nazi inspired emblem in your pictures! So there are more than one such organisation!

Yes, you can imagine the coverage of this. Everyone that's dead is implicitly Russia's fault somehow... And suddenly this democratically elected government is an evil dictatorship that deserves the rage of the people and the condemnation of the West.

I think these people are insane. Do they realise what real Nazis back in the days would have thought of them? They are spitting on their own history.
The Nazis wanted to steal the land in the USSR and use the people as slave labour because they were "untermenschen". And now they imitate the Nazis?!

So I have no idea what will happen now. Ukraine needed money very urgently as I understood it, and Russia was offering.
So will they now get the cash they need from the EU, USA or IMF instead because they were performed as expected in this coup d'etat?
What's going to happen to Ukraine's economy? I understand there's been a lot of destruction in Kiev and other places.

I used to think it might be nice if Ukraine joined the EU, or got closely involved. But now, after seeing this type of situation I actually don't want it. I certainly don't want my tax money to fund a bunch of Nazis and people who behave like they are puppets on a string and seem to completely lack perspective politically.

I never express strong views here, because I usually think I lack the insights that Russians, Ukranians and others have on these topics and because it's not my business strictly speaking.

But in this case, I think this is IDIOTIC. They could have waited ONE year for the election, and THEN if the election was fradulent, they could have staged this revolution. The majority voted for this president, and all he wanted to do was to postponed EU discussions and receive some extremely badly needed cash from the only country that was offering it. It's supposed to be "Western style " democracy there now, isn't it! Well the name of the game is you cast your vote, you allow them to do their worst for 4-5 years and then you get the opportunity to get rid of them if they failed. You don't have a revolution and smash up the capital just because a decision is taken that some people don't agree with! Particularly not one year before the next election.

Who does this benefit, and is there ANYthing at all to indicate that whoever takes over will be less corrupt or incompetent? Best guess is that this next government will also open up the doors for EU and US multinationals to crush what's left of local Ukrainian business and industry and maybe turn Ukraine into an outsourcing hothouse for the EU. I think Ukrainians are better than that.

The first thing that hit me when I was in Ukraine was how much Western European big brand corporations were there. It was so in-your-face in old historical or Soviet era blocks. Saw plenty of Swedish, German, Dutch not to mention American brands That's thousands of Ukrainian jobs lost and extra money wasted that goes straight into the pockets of people in Frankfurt, London and other EU capitals. While competent Ukrainians go without a job or are underpaid and overqualified in some dumbed down job.

I really don't get what motivated these people. I really like Ukraine and wish it the very best, but I just don't understand what they think they are doing.


"Peaceful protesters"

Originally Posted by Hanna

I don't like these accusations sometimes coming from Russian media about various ex Soviet republics inhabitants being nazis and fascists etc. Doesn't seem fair or reasonable to bring up events from the War... So I thought it was exaggerated and rather irritating that they'd sink so low as to bring this up.

*Morpheus mode on*
What if I told you, that most of ex Soviet republics were led to independence by nationalists and millions of Russians who were unlucky to stay there suffered from it?
*Morpheus mode off*
Western regions of Ukraine are quite special. Their population always distanced themselves from the eastern half. When it began and why is long story spanning over two hundred years. When the nazi came there, they were met with flowers. One of the reasons for that was the propaganda nazi used to spread in attacked regions posing themselves as liberators. Many of the "collaborationists" formed an army led by Stepan Bandera (not for long actually) and showed even more brutality than their patrons and paid dearly for their treachery later. Nowadays there is a social group of people, who consider themselves their descendants and believe that their grandpas were fighting not for the nazis but against communism (and Soviet "jewish government"). Today they proudly wear nazi symbols and build plans to get their revenge. They may not be actual nazis (yet they retain the nazi hate towards Hebrew), but to us, Russians, everybody who wears that is considered a threat, so our journalists don't hesitate to call them "nazis" as well.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I used to think it might be nice if Ukraine joined the EU, or got closely involved. But now, after seeing this type of situation I actually don't want it. I certainly don't want my tax money to fund a bunch of Nazis and people who behave like they are puppets on a string and seem to completely lack perspective politically.

A bunch of Nazis? Like these in Estonia?
Сбор ветеранов войск СС в Эстонии (Annual SS veteran meeting in Estonia)

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

*Morpheus mode on*
What if I told you, that most of ex Soviet republics were led to independence by nationalists and millions of Russians who were unlucky to stay there suffered from it?

Hm... I know in the Baltic states they brought in people of Baltic origin who grew up in the USA, Germany and Scandinavia to run the country....

And I read a rather funny article in a Swedish paper a few years ago, by a tourist to Tallinn who was pretty shocked to discover that our innocent darlings across the Baltic sea have parades in the honour of Nazi ideals. On EU territory! And I saw some pretty serious Nazi graffiti in Riga.

I thought this was a small and very confused minority who turned to this type of history and ideals as a counter-reaction to everything that the USSR stood for. I grew up in the shadow of fingerpointing about whose parents or grandparents were or weren't a Nazi, who might have collaborated or supported them and I just don't like endless mulling over the events in the war.

However, as your picture points out, it's quite a different thing if a modern person takes a conscious decision to praise nazi ideals.

I might be mixing up Eastern European history - but I really thought the Ukranians were mostly communist partisans during the war, or drafted into the Red Army... Could have sworn it came up in school history. Or maybe I am mixing it up with elsewhere in the USSR, or Eastern Europe.

*Morpheus mode off*
Western regions of Ukraine are quite special. Their population always distanced themselves from the eastern half. When it began and why is long story spanning over two hundred years. When the nazi came there, they were met with flowers. One of the reasons for that was the propaganda nazi used to spread in attacked regions posing themselves as liberators. Many of the "collaborationists" formed an army led by Stepan Bandera (not for long actually) and showed even more brutality than their patrons and paid dearly for their treachery later. Nowadays there is a social group of people, who consider themselves their descendants and believe that their grandpas were fighting not for the nazis but against communism (and Soviet "jewish government"). Today they proudly wear nazi symbols and build plans to get their revenge. They may not be actual nazis (yet they retain the nazi hate towards Hebrew), but to us, Russians, everybody who wears that is considered a threat, so our journalists don't hesitate to call them "nazis" as well.

Haha Morfpheus. ok! Thanks for this interesting info. I didn't know that about Ukraine. I only heard about the partisans.

A lot of the Ukrainian Jews left the country though, i.e. to Israel and North America, right? I thought maybe almost all? And are those Jews who remain concerned about being Jewish? I met people from the ex USSR who were all or partially Jewish and all of them were radically atheist. I was in Odessa which has a reputation for being "Jewish", but I didn't see any sign of Jewish life at all, apart from some American Hasidic Jews speaking English. But I guess whatever Jews are left in Ukraine lean more towards Russia then, than with these nationalists?

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

A bunch of Nazis? Like these in Estonia?
Сбор ветеранов войск СС в Эстонии (Annual SS veteran meeting in Estonia)

[/QUOTE]
Yes, well if it's old people I don't care. I guess all those who lived through the war need to talk about it sometimes, with others who had a similar experience. Not defending them and I don't like it, but it's not my business. And most people in Germany and Austria have pictures of their older relatives in Nazi uniforms etc. People didn't know, they just followed the prevailing ideology like sheep.... I think we can all relate to that....!

It's when they bring it out TODAY, with modern people and start whitewashing Nazism that it's disturbing. Today we know the facts. People in the 1930s- 1940s did not have the full picture.

I actually have some relatives from Estonia. There were several brothers. Two were just farmers, but one was better educated and worked for the Nazis during the war. Funnily enough, another brother who was much younger than the others, was a socialist or communist, pro-USSR. It's a long story, but the brother who worked for the Nazis had a big part of his life destroyed because of it, even though he managed to leave Estonia before the USSR picked him up. He was such a drunk that he didn't live to see Estonia as an independent nation. All but one of the brothers left the country in connection with the USSR annexation.

The more I read about Ukraine, the more I think, just split the country and be done with it!
Ukraine is new as a nation state anyway, it's not like it's a country that's been around for centuries.
Maybe just admit that the borders of the Ukrainian SSR did not actually reflect the real borders of Ukraina and a mistake was made in the general chaos of '92-'93.

See my previous comment. I mean, it can't continue like this! It's been over 20 years since the USSR, and Ukraine still hasn't found its feet as a country. Everyone and their dog is trying to exploit and manipulate Ukraine.

For example, in Belarus it's working better even though the "Belarussian" identity isn't really rooted in most people and a lot of them weren't even born there. Also in the Baltic states, and even Moldova, I think. With the current borders and population it might be unrealistic to make a go of it, in Ukraine.

Sorry I am ranting about this, I really care, seriously, I think it's very tragic and I want Ukrainians to have a better future with stability and prosperity, and without being manipulated or exploited.

Во-первых, в случае противостояния с Украиной, Крым придётся снабжать по морю и по воздуху, причём неограниченно долгое время, а это очень дорого, в том числе и для жителей Крыма.

Ну это-то, как раз, сравнительно легко решится. Что нам стоит мост построить, провернем и будем жить.)) При наличии "политической воли" и лишнего "бильярда" баксов мост будет сдан через год ИМХО. Тем более "законное украинское правительство" уже утвердило соответствующее соглашение)).

30 января 2014 года Кабинет министров Украины утвердил соглашение с Россией о строительстве моста через пролив[11].

Мост через Керченский пролив — Википедия

Originally Posted by Ramil

Ну да, чья армия стоит на территории, того она и есть.

Ну, и что Кипр - английская провинция?

Originally Posted by Ramil

А статус субъекта РФ для крымчан что изменит?

Туристов будет больше. Может, какое бабло с аренды Севастополя перепадёт. Раньше это было 98 лимонов баксов в год.

Originally Posted by Ramil

говорю же - при сохранении Россией нейтралитета. Т. е. российских "туристов" не будет.

Дык, есть разница межды приездом "туристов" и возможностью приезда "туристов". Чтобы приехали турецкие "туристы", они должны согласовать свои визы с Украиной, Россией, ЕС, НАТО, США, и со жрецами-птицегадателями. А уже в самую последную очередь, с крымчанами.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Сейчас же России предлагается влить кучу денег в поддержание суверенитета Крыма с весьма туманными выгодами для себя.

И чего? Хватило денег купить украинские облигации, хватит купить и крымские. Или заберут у Украины, отдадут Крыму. Проблема-то.. Резиденцию себе Путин уже построил, олимпиада отгремела, неужели опять покупать на кровные нефтерубли какие-то мерзкие ти-биллы богопротивных штатов?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Сохранение же автономии в составе Украинской Федерации для России (да и для Крыма) гораздо более выгодно.

Думаю, что Крыму выгодна республика, а России выгодно, что в Крыму её любят и не будут, если что, сыпать в горюче-смазочные вещества боевых кораблей стальные опилки. А то, как была напряжёнка с Грузией, так Ющенко сразу стал в позу.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Я не про нападение украинских милитаристов на Крым, господь с тобой. Я про возможность его блокады со стороны Украины. Жрать-то в Крыму что-то надо.

Я с возможностью блокады согласен. А что сейчас жрёт Кипр? И потом, ты считаешь, что все крымские порты сейчас простаивают?