Imagine you borrowed $1 mil from the yakuza and in order to pay the debt you borrowed money from, say, an Italian mafiozi. Then you 'somehow' spend a weekend in Las Vegas and now you don't have any money. The only thing that is left is your house. Now both the mafiozi and yakuza come to your house and start arguing who's going to take it. Your continued well being is the last thing those two are worried about.Originally Posted by Hanna
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Ну, и что Кипр - английская провинция?
Туристов будет больше. Может, какое бабло с аренды Севастополя перепадёт. Раньше это было 98 лимонов баксов в год.
Дык, есть разница межды приездом "туристов" и возможностью приезда "туристов". Чтобы приехали турецкие "туристы", они должны согласовать свои визы с Украиной, Россией, ЕС, НАТО, США, и со жрецами-птицегадателями. А уже в самую последную очередь, с крымчанами.
И чего? Хватило денег купить украинские облигации, хватит купить и крымские. Или заберут у Украины, отдадут Крыму. Проблема-то.. Резиденцию себе Путин уже построил, олимпиада отгремела, неужели опять покупать на кровные нефтерубли какие-то мерзкие ти-биллы богопротивных штатов?
Думаю, что Крыму выгодна республика, а России выгодно, что в Крыму её любят и не будут, если что, сыпать в горюче-смазочные вещества боевых кораблей стальные опилки. А то, как была напряжёнка с Грузией, так Ющенко сразу стал в позу.
Я с возможностью блокады согласен. А что сейчас жрёт Кипр? И потом, ты считаешь, что все крымские порты сейчас простаивают?
В целом, да. Прямо или косвенно, с этой финансовой прачечной конечным бенефициаром выступала английская казна. Там одних типа "российских" денег крутилось до недавнего времени с половину этого острова. А где у нас все богатенькие россияне?Ну, и что Кипр - английская провинция?
Сейчас не знаю, что там. Экономика в заднице, метрополия не помогает. Можно сказать, что вот только сейчас они ощутили на себе полную независимость.
Ага, вот Россия перечислила арендную плату и её тут же раздали крымчанам (утирает слезу), вложили в туристическую инфраструктуру (рыдаетЪ), туристы увидели всё это и метнулись отдыхать в Крым, вместо Анталии. Я, правда, не сильно понимаю, почему в составе Украины не произошло бы то же самое?
У нас с Турцией безвизовое общение. Мы всем рады. Может, я слишком уж эзоповым языком выражаюсь. Туристы здесь - не только подлые диверсанты и шпиёны, скажем так - агенты влияния. Будут устанавливать крепкие экономические связи через море, возможно даже инвестировать, но денежные потоки все пойдут тоже через море.
Пощади! Вот с тарифами ЖКХ разберёмся и тогда про Крым поговорим...И чего? Хватило денег купить украинские облигации, хватит купить и крымские. Или заберут у Украины, отдадут Крыму. Проблема-то.. Резиденцию себе Путин уже построил, олимпиада отгремела, неужели опять покупать на кровные нефтерубли какие-то мерзкие ти-биллы богопротивных штатов?
Порт - дело торговое, хорошее. Только нужен он для перевалки грузов в Украину. Для перевалки в Россию есть Новороссийск и Туапсе - там есть инфраструктура и ж/д пути. При блокаде с севера, крымские порты теряют свою ценность. Я очень сильно сомневаюсь, что независимый Крым сможет прожить лишь за счёт туризма, да на арендную плату за базу в Севастополе. Других источников бюджетных поступлений у него не будет. Что будут жрать его граждане? То, что подбросят добрые люди в виде бюджетных субсидий, да гуманитарной помощи. И нахрена козе баян?
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It is clear, that they wanted the POWER, ASAP. What I don't get, why Yanukovich acted as he did.I really don't get what motivated these people.
"Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."
So the EU is the mafiosi and Russia is the yakuza and Ukraine is the "stupid" "victim".
Clever allegory. Took me a few seconds to get.
I don't know anything about how incompetent and/or corrupt Yanukovich and his party were. Or if he was affected by circumstances beyond his control and faced with an impossible task.
But I don't understand how a person goes from democratically elected and internationally respected leader, to dictator who people want to prosecute as a war criminal. There is something rotten.......
What in particular did you have in mind? I thought this was so upsetting that I didn't watch it on the news...
I'm not defending him, but he had a full scale riot and revolution on his hands. The job of governments is to keep the public order, and they were totally out of control.
If he ordered "shoot-to-kill" then he should answer for that.
But look at the pictures of these people. They wanted a "war" and they got it
The thing that TOTALLY DISGUSTS me about this, is that this riots was cheered on by the EU and the USA. It was a mini Syria!
They deserve a dose of their own medicine. What if China stirred people up in the EU, so they took to Brussels and started smashing things up and setting things on fire? Then the Chinese leaders turn up to give the rioters cookies and hold speeches to motivate them. Anyone tried this in Washington DC and they'd be facing methods and weapons the Ukraine couldn't dream o!
If and when this happens in either the EU or the USA, they would probably react the same way, and they would totally condemn it.
It is such incredible double standards to openly support a revolution against a democratically elected leader in Europe, because they don't like who who he wants to take loans from, or negotiate trade union with.
The EU and USA have big contingency plans and annual exercises for how to disperse crowds, for example blank out mobiles, noises and smells that people can't tolerate, and a whole arsenal of non-lethal weapons. Particularly after "Occupy" and the London Riots.
Drone and satellites that can do facial recognition from space. Ukrainfe probably doesn't have this type of sophisticated equipment. But if you go out in the street and throw molotov cocktails, kidnap people and put buildings on fire, then surely you have to realise that you are taking a risk, possibly your own life.
I wonder if the EU and USA are going to turn a blind eye if these nazis execute Yanukovich on the spot, or hang him from a lamppost, as they are talking about. Trial in the Hague would be a FARSE. So he might have 88 innocent lives that could have been spared on his hands. How many do Obama have? Tony Blair for Iraq and Washington? Yanukovich is nothing compared with those.
And I know exactly how some in the USA and the EU regard Ukraine. I happened to work with an American woman just recently, who spent 7 years in Ukraine, working for a US international firm, according to her "teaching the Ukrainians how to run a business and do accountancy". Such arrogance! In this time she didn't manage to learn Russian or Ukrainian herself, and it's really insulting to suggest that there aren't people in Ukraine who know how to do accountancy, a. Everything was "wrong" about her flat, shopping in Kiev etc. Nevertheless she probably had a much better flat than most people in Kiev and the salary to get the best of the available shopping. I listened to so much of her "war stories" from living there, her dissing of Russia and Belarus and unfortunately with her being senior to me, I couldn't tell her my real view.
As for the EU, it's always been about getting EU brands in and taking over the markets and getting access to a cheap outsourcing labour force.
Please tell me that this baptist minister, Oleksandr Turtjynov, who is acting prime minister, was not trained in the USA? I didn't even know there were baptists in Ukraine - definitely the fruits of recent missionary efforts. I really like baptists and a strong Christian might be just what this situation needs. On the other hand, a lot of baptists on this continents are totally in bed with the USA.
And what's the situation with Ukrainian names? Do people have two versions of their names, a Ukrainian and a Russian? Western media confuses itself and believes it's talking about two different people - Mykola / Nikolai etc. The different ways to Romanize the name causes even more confusion.
Finally - my view: Just call it quits and split the country. This has been going on for over 20 years now. Can the people take any more of this now? Plus smaller nations are less interesting to manipulate - Ukraine's size is part of its curse. Do a referendum in Eastern Ukraine and find out if people want to be part of the Russian federation or a smaller independent nation.
Lots of European nations have split for various reasons. It's better than having a country where people are pulling in different directions and have different loyalties. That way, Western Ukraine, the nazis and the lack of money becomes the EUs problem. They'll be another Eastern European member like Romania.
Just another problem to add to the list. And let the East Ukrainians have an independent nation or merge with Russia. The EU made this bed, so now we can lay in it, I guess... And Western Ukraine would probably get on really well with Poland, the Baltics and Hungary.
It's not that Yanukovich was universally loved. He was the best of two evils. The alternative were the same nationalists that have just overthrown him. As far as I can understand they simply could not agree upon a single candidate and have lost the elections as a result.
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Hm... I know in the Baltic states they brought in people of Baltic origin who grew up in the USA, Germany and Scandinavia to run the country....
And I read a rather funny article in a Swedish paper a few years ago, by a tourist to Tallinn who was pretty shocked to discover that our innocent darlings across the Baltic sea have parades in the honour of Nazi ideals. On EU territory! And I saw some pretty serious Nazi graffiti in Riga.
I thought this was a small and very confused minority who turned to this type of history and ideals as a counter-reaction to everything that the USSR stood for. I grew up in the shadow of fingerpointing about whose parents or grandparents were or weren't a Nazi, who might have collaborated or supported them and I just don't like endless mulling over the events in the war.
However, as your picture points out, it's quite a different thing if a modern person takes a conscious decision to praise nazi ideals.
I might be mixing up Eastern European history - but I really thought the Ukranians were mostly communist partisans during the war, or drafted into the Red Army... Could have sworn it came up in school history. Or maybe I am mixing it up with elsewhere in the USSR, or Eastern Europe.
Haha Morfpheus. ok! Thanks for this interesting info. I didn't know that about Ukraine. I only heard about the partisans.*Morpheus mode off*
Western regions of Ukraine are quite special. Their population always distanced themselves from the eastern half. When it began and why is long story spanning over two hundred years. When the nazi came there, they were met with flowers. One of the reasons for that was the propaganda nazi used to spread in attacked regions posing themselves as liberators. Many of the "collaborationists" formed an army led by Stepan Bandera (not for long actually) and showed even more brutality than their patrons and paid dearly for their treachery later. Nowadays there is a social group of people, who consider themselves their descendants and believe that their grandpas were fighting not for the nazis but against communism (and Soviet "jewish government"). Today they proudly wear nazi symbols and build plans to get their revenge. They may not be actual nazis (yet they retain the nazi hate towards Hebrew), but to us, Russians, everybody who wears that is considered a threat, so our journalists don't hesitate to call them "nazis" as well.
A lot of the Ukrainian Jews left the country though, i.e. to Israel and North America, right? I thought maybe almost all? And are those Jews who remain concerned about being Jewish? I met people from the ex USSR who were all or partially Jewish and all of them were radically atheist. I was in Odessa which has a reputation for being "Jewish", but I didn't see any sign of Jewish life at all, apart from some American Hasidic Jews speaking English. But I guess whatever Jews are left in Ukraine lean more towards Russia then, than with these nationalists?
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Yes, well if it's old people I don't care. I guess all those who lived through the war need to talk about it sometimes, with others who had a similar experience. Not defending them and I don't like it, but it's not my business. And most people in Germany and Austria have pictures of their older relatives in Nazi uniforms etc. People didn't know, they just followed the prevailing ideology like sheep.... I think we can all relate to that....!
It's when they bring it out TODAY, with modern people and start whitewashing Nazism that it's disturbing. Today we know the facts. People in the 1930s- 1940s did not have the full picture.
I actually have some relatives from Estonia. There were several brothers. Two were just farmers, but one was better educated and worked for the Nazis during the war. Funnily enough, another brother who was much younger than the others, was a socialist or communist, pro-USSR. It's a long story, but the brother who worked for the Nazis had a big part of his life destroyed because of it, even though he managed to leave Estonia before the USSR picked him up. He was such a drunk that he didn't live to see Estonia as an independent nation. All but one of the brothers left the country in connection with the USSR annexation.
The more I read about Ukraine, the more I think, just split the country and be done with it!
Ukraine is new as a nation state anyway, it's not like it's a country that's been around for centuries.
Maybe just admit that the borders of the Ukrainian SSR did not actually reflect the real borders of Ukraina and a mistake was made in the general chaos of '92-'93.
See my previous comment. I mean, it can't continue like this! It's been over 20 years since the USSR, and Ukraine still hasn't found its feet as a country. Everyone and their dog is trying to exploit and manipulate Ukraine.
For example, in Belarus it's working better even though the "Belarussian" identity isn't really rooted in most people and a lot of them weren't even born there. Also in the Baltic states, and even Moldova, I think. With the current borders and population it might be unrealistic to make a go of it, in Ukraine.
Sorry I am ranting about this, I really care, seriously, I think it's very tragic and I want Ukrainians to have a better future with stability and prosperity, and without being manipulated or exploited.
We lost a great politician in you!
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haha, well you know me....
A lot of my "views" about the ex USSR area is actually based on info I picked up in this forum, by asking people and just reading info from people who take the time to explain local history and their own perspective.
Is it offensive to Ukrainian citizens to suggest that it's worth considering splitting up the country?
I am thinking that both sides would be quite relieved to get rid of the other. Or is it more complex?
Biggest challenge I guess, would be how and where to split. They'd have to ask for help for impartial assistance with that, and it might be another reason for a big conflict.
One other thing: All the while I was in Ukraine I didn't notice anyone speaking Ukrainian - I was in Odessa and Kiev. I was listening out for it but nobody spoke it. Yet practically all written info was in Ukrainian.which was problematic for me, and not what I had expected. It seems to me that the language issue can be a big problem if they are again going to revert to forcing Ukrainian on people who don't want it.
Edit: Apparently the new temporary prime minister has said that any threats against the sovereign territory of Ukraine is unacceptable. I guess that means that even having a public discussion about splitting the country is out.
Nobody wants the splitup of Ukraine (nobody from both sides). EU doesn't want it, Russia doesn't want it (I hope so, at least). Still if the conflict continues the best way to avoid a civil war would be to create a federation instead of a present unitarian model. Or even a confederation.
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I think the important thing is that they get some stability and can set out a course for the future, and stick with it for 10-15 years so things improve. But that's impossible if everybody is sidetracked with quarelling about language, pro-West or Pro-Russia and dramatic changes in government on a regular basis.
This has happened before, so what's the guarantee it won't happen again..
The two groups in the country have different loyalties. Either you have a dictatorship that forces them to work together whether they want to or not, or allow them to split up in such a way that both sides get what they want, separately.
And they can't have a trade union and visa union with Russia and EU at the same time.
And they cannot expect to get subsidised energy from Russia while running the errands of the EU and USA.
Half the country cannot join the EU and the other be close to Russia, even if it's a federation.
I am afraid this is an endless loop of events; pro West, pro-Russia, Pro West, Pro Russia infinitely.
"He who does not remember history is doomed to repeat it."
They've been through this cycle 3-4 times now, there are no winners other than corrupt crooks and multinationals. The losers are Ukrainians, all of them...
I hope Right Sector can convince enough Ukrainians to not vote for any of the Opposition and that they establish their own candidate - and win. Then, it will be really interesting readng the posts here. For a chuckle.
Confessing your true colours, huh? And it's brown, apparently.
Well, you should go live there in that case, you might feel right at home.
And if you wish it on the Ukrainians, it should be good enough for you anyway.
I think you'll find more people sympathising with your comments over at Stormfront. You obviously don't care a thing about what the people in Ukraine are going through.
Your lack of knowledge and insight on all related issues here is legendary (not to mention, actual lack of interest in Russia, Ukraine etc.). I won't waste my time with you.
So, you hope nazists will win and become rulers in Ukraine?
Btw, I support any cause for an independent and sovereign Ukraine, idealistic as that sounds. I am suspicious (being generous) of all the Opposition candidates and any that support the EU is catastrophic for Ukraine. It's short-term gain that will not develop well. Unfortunately, money talks and the economic situatiion of Ukraine dictates that there is an attempt to move towards the EU. Ukraine has a chance/opportunity to build their country for self-sufficiency but alas, they probably won't do so. Sadly.
For anyone who wants to attack me (like the other poster) for my unpopular perspective, go ahead. I will not respond. The issue and events that have transpired are complex. Discussions with Ukrainians and Russians of all political persuasians do help but there's a lot of 'propaganda' out there.
Good luck, Ukraine.
Don't ask me, ask Ukrainians. I think many don't think they're 'nazis' but radicals. But, let's just say for sake of argument, they are 'nazists' - they won't last long. The EU has legislation to outlaw whatever views they have. So, the EUSSR will be shown as the hypocrites that they are. Many Americans like John McCain and others stood in front of these protesters. But, few said anything. They are used as pawns right now. The protests didn't escalate and prostesters didn't become more radical until the incumbent Government started clamping down. Abuses of power including changing the Constitution (criminalizing any criticism) and commiting violence against the protesters united everyone in their condemnation of the regime.
It's really despicable how all these organizations and countries are provoking this tug-'o-war and fortunately, so far, Russia has kept their distance. However, it's obvious the EU has no good intentions. The full recording of Victoria Nuland proves that.
So, go ahead and call them 'nazists' but make sure you ask enough Ukrainains about it. I'm sure they will have a different view.
Одесские активисты «Правого сектора» заявили, что боятся учителей :: Polemika.com.uaОдесские активисты «Правого сектора» надевают маски не потому, что боятся противников или милиции. Такое заявление сделал на заседании политического совета в областной администрации лидер городского отделения «Правого сектора» Иван Вышатый. По его словам, они опасаются, что если их опознают, то «учителя в школах и училищах будут чморить», передает корреспондент Полемики.
Таким образом, он признал, что костяк одесского «Правого сектора», претендующего на лидерство в майдановской среде, состоит, в основном, из школьников.
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Отметим, что, по мнению заместителя начальника областного УВД Дмитрия Фучеджи, такого рода опасения совершенно несостоятельны. «В нынешних условиях опасаться преследования со стороны преподавателей просто смешно», - подчеркнул правоохранитель.
I would call black "black" even if most ukranians disagree with me. It's not a question of their agreement. It's a fact.
И где оно, обещанное? Запасаемся попкорном?
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