Thread: Что происходит в Украине? События, новости.

Originally Posted by Suobig

The thing is - civil war in Ukraine is advantageous for Russia. That doesn't mean Russia wants civil war or makes something to begin it. But in that case all eastern regions could be separated from Ukraine.

Could you elaborate a bit. In what way a civil war in Ukraine will be advantageous for Russia?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Как я понял, если Северо-Крымский канал перекрыть, то воды будет очень сильно не хватать.

Это скорее сельскохозяйственная, нежели гуманитарная проблема. Могут возникнуть проблемы с электроэнергией и связью (один из провайдеров связи - "Укртелеком" - уже объявил, что потерял техническую возможность обеспечивать Киев связью и интернетом.

В любом случае, подобные действия будут только ожесточать население Крыма.

Originally Posted by Suobig

Это скорее сельскохозяйственная, нежели гуманитарная проблема. Могут возникнуть проблемы с электроэнергией и связью (один из провайдеров связи - "Укртелеком" - уже объявил, что потерял техническую возможность обеспечивать Киев связью и интернетом.

Вот отключил бы Янукович сотовую связь в центре Киева в январе - и ничего бы этого не было.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Вот отключил бы Янукович сотовую связь в центре Киева в январе - и ничего бы этого не было.

Ой. Не Киев, а Крым. Опечатался.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Could you elaborate a bit. In what way a civil war in Ukraine will be advantageous for Russia?

Russia can act as a peacemaker: take under military control eastern regions, accept refugees from western regions. Then eastern regions initate referendum and separate from Ukraine. Russia gets loyal country or even part of territory.

Originally Posted by Suobig

Russia can act as a peacemaker: take under military control eastern regions, accept refugees from western regions. Then eastern regions initate referendum and separate from Ukraine. Russia gets loyal country or even part of territory.

You heard of Pridnestrovie, Kosovo, etc? Nobody won these wars. Thousands of refugees will go through the Ukraninan-Russian border and the locals won't like it. Moreover, rouble will go down, all Russian market will collapse. Our European 'friends' will 'discover' all sorts of military crimes committed by our 'peace-makers'. Trade sanctions will be imposed. We'll have military insurgents committing guerilla attacks not only in Ukraine, but in Russia itself. All Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed in the first several weeks. Russia will get ruins and extra several million hungry mouths to feed. I really cannot understand how can you be so blind to not seeing that a civil war in Ukraine will be a disaster. This war should be avoided at all costs.

Originally Posted by Ramil

You heard of Pridnestrovie, Kosovo, etc? Nobody won these wars. Thousands of refugees will go through the Ukraninan-Russian border and the locals won't like it. Moreover, rouble will go down, all Russian market will collapse. Our European 'friends' will 'discover' all sorts of military crimes committed by our 'peace-makers'. Trade sanctions will be imposed. We'll have military insurgents committing guerilla attacks not only in Ukraine, but in Russia itself. All Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed in the first several weeks. Russia will get ruins and extra several million hungry mouths to feed. I really cannot understand how can you be so blind to not seeing that a civil war in Ukraine will be a disaster. This war should be avoided at all costs.

I agree with this. I don't like what is currenltly happening in Crimea at all. Also Putin once again acts like a d!ck by not explaining to public what he is doing.

Originally Posted by Ramil

You heard of Pridnestrovie, Kosovo, etc? Nobody won these wars. Thousands of refugees will go through the Ukraninan-Russian border and the locals won't like it. Moreover, rouble will go down, all Russian market will collapse. Our European 'friends' will 'discover' all sorts of military crimes committed by our 'peace-makers'. Trade sanctions will be imposed. We'll have military insurgents committing guerilla attacks not only in Ukraine, but in Russia itself. All Ukrainian infrastructure will be destroyed in the first several weeks. Russia will get ruins and extra several million hungry mouths to feed. I really cannot understand how can you be so blind to not seeing that a civil war in Ukraine will be a disaster. This war should be avoided at all costs.

I had been thinking same way few days ago. But after Crimea... Man, I'm impressed! I think Russia can fulfil it's goals in Eastern Ukraine and end civil war quickly.
It seems to me, that Russia wants to gain control over eastern territories, and, which is more important, eastern territories can allow this to happen - people there are fed up with political and economical chaos and they see it's source in Kiev. So they can start separation process and civil war would make it faster and easier.

And about "peace-makers crimes". Do you remember 8.8.8? Russia invaded other country and vaporized it's military forces. Any trade sanctions? Any military insurgents?

I don't say it won't be a disaster. Civil war - is the worst thing that can happen to any country. All I say - it would make russian positions in eastern part of Ukraine much stronger, and now I'm sure - Russia would use it's chances.

I agree with Ramil and Basil77.
We've already seen this happen before, a few time. We know how everybody involved will react. There are a few possible outcomes, but on the whole it's like a play where the script has already been written.
Plus, as they hint at: There is never any winner in a war! Only weapons manufacturers, political leaders, generals and bankers. Regular people of the countries involved are those who lose out.

Particularly not in these post USSR wars, some regions are still "unrecognised", "breakaway territories". They can't establish legal economies, they become dependent on aid from Russia or blackmarket activities and corruption. I
And Russia has NOT incorporated these places into the Russian Federation even if the population there would probably support it or at least accept it. Instead, Russia has to keep spending money there, to keep up their commitments.

I realise Crimea has strategic importance and is not "any" random territory, like the other breakaway republics.
But why get excited about the prospect of more land for Russia, it's already the biggest country!!

If Russia was directly responsible for ONE single death in Ukraine, then this would be used for an EXTREME propaganda campaign.

It would be absolutely relentless until everybody in Europe was scared to DEATH of Russia and approved of Nato missile launchers all over the place and more American bases. Pathetic that people are such sheeps, but it's true.
Just see how they managed to play the South Ossetia war - it's used by everybody who wants to be paranoid of Russia, or villify it, as an excuse.

And for what gain - do you really care about Crimea, does it MATTER?

I think the people in the Crimea should organise a referendum there asap - invite some human rights or EU observers there to monitor, for international credibilty and have a referendum. If the world knows the opinions of the Crimeans, then how can they object to a truly autonomous region, or an independent state..?

Another option (but I don't like it) is that Russia says "f-ck international opionion, we know what Crimeans want and we'll use our military to make sure they get it, and we keep the bases." However this would play straight into American weapons manufacturers, various nations and others who would love to see Cold War 2.0 and will manipulate any event to lead to that goal.

I agree - RU government should tell people what their plans are - since there are such close ties between the countries, and since everybod realises that Russia will have to choose a course of action. Maybe they are still thinking about it....?

I just read a "hilarious" thing in Swedish media, biggest paper.

Apparently 75 known Swedish neo-Nazis went to Kiev to fight with a movement called Svoboda. (I noticed that there is a new Swedish user to the forum with that nick. Co-incidence...? He ought to learn the Ukrainian language though, I would have thought, not Russian...)

Anyway, this put this paper in a bit of a twist. Because they are AGAINST neo nazis in Sweden, but FOR the nationalist movement in Ukraine. So how do they write the story without contradicting the official line....?

They didn't write very much, just reported that the neo nazis had gone to Kiev and helped the "peaceful protesters" by serving soup (that's a long way to travel just to serve some soup). The alleged neo nazi who was interviewed anonymously said that the Ukrainian nationalists saw Sweden as a particularly bad example of failed immigration and political correctness. Sadly, there is some point to that. They called it "revolution tourism", apparently the same people once visited Belarus for similar reasons

Either way - it's an entertaining dilemma for the paper - they love to keep tabs of what the Neo Nazis do, to criticize it, and suddenly that meant they had to acknowledge that this hated group has links with "freedom" movement which they favour, in Ukraine. So has the Nazis become good, or does this somewhat taint the heroic Svoboda movement? Propaganda can be challenging at times.

They solved the who problem by illustrating the article with a completely un-related picture of Russian nazis carrying a Russian flag, obviously nothing to do with Ukraine. A reader unfamiliar with the events just skimming over the page would still think "bloody Russians".

I googled and found some international coverage in "The Daily Beast" (no idea what kind of paper that might be, something online...)

Originally Posted by Fredrik Hagberg

“I stand before your forces of revolution to tell you about what your future might be if you fail your glorious endeavour”. However where I come from is no longer Sweden.” Hagberg warned Ukrainians that a successful revolution must chart a path that carefully avoided the evils of abortion and ethnic mongrelization, one that harshly punished welfare abuse and rejected the normalization of homosexuality. “Officials in Sweden like to calls us the most modern country in the world. I say to you, brothers, this is what awaits you if you choose to follow our example. You now have the opportunity to choose and create your own future. Do not accept the trap of choosing either the West or Russia.”

hmmmm, very torn - I actually agree with some of the points he makes, even though I abhor nazism. Very disturbing. Just a footnote, feel free to ignore. Plus I am not sure it's possible to stand alone and refuse to choose allegiance today.

I can understand why Putin ordered to take control of Crimea without official warnings, UN security consil meetings, etc. Most likely he did this to avoid a single shot, because if it were expected than armed militants from Western Ukraine could arrive there earlier than Russian troops and arrange some violent resistance. But I don't see any solid legal grounds that could back such actions besides permission from Yanukovich who still calls himself a legitimate president. In South Ossetia case our peacekeepers who stationed there by official UN mandate were killed and it's a legitimate reason for intervention but in the Crimea case I don't see such solid ground at all. Of course Crimea means million times more for an average Russian than whole Caucasus region but still... As I already wrote I want to hear an explanation form Putin who is supreme commader of our armed forces.

I still can't believe that the EU was essentially applauding and supporting a coup d'etat against a democratically elected president, just because he didn't want to sign a deal with the EU.

I think my idealism when I supported my country joining the EU may have been misplaced. I had no idea it would turn into this. I thought it was about peacekeeping and solidarity between the regions. Right now I would feel much better if I was NOT an EU citizen. But for example Nowegian or Swiss.

And looking at Romania as a comparison I am actually not at all sure that EU membership would do anything for Ukraine. Romania is still corrupt and poor, more so than Ukraine, as far as I could tell.

Joining the EU will open the maket for European goods without any restrictions. Domestic industry will succumb immediately and will be replaced by imports. Same with the agricultural goods. And nobody didn't even guarantee Ukrain the membership. This one-sided 'association' will do nothing to help the Ukraininan economy.

Андрей Макаревич:


11:46 / 28.02.14 302849просмотров

"Про мерзость

Я переживаю за события на Украине. Но гораздо сильнее я переживаю по поводу того, что творится в этой связи у нас. Не покидает ощущение того, что наша власть полагает: страна, народ — это те, кто им управляет. Однако если правитель не слышит своего народа и при этом насилует его, народ его сметает. Так что на Украине произошла самая типичная революция, и при всей моей нелюбви к революциям я не могу назвать ее несправедливой. И теперь можно сколько угодно хлопать крыльями, называть восставших граждан «коричневой чумой» — выглядит это омерзительно.

Такой разнузданной пропаганды и такого количества вранья я не припомню с лучших брежневских времен. Да и то не сравнить: возможностей тогда было меньше. Ребята, вы чего добиваетесь? Создания общественного мнения для ввода войск на территорию суверенного государства? Оттяпать Крым?

ЦК КПСС, вводя войска в Чехословакию, с народом не советовался. И что, кроме того что обосрались на весь мир? Вот сегодня две страны вместо одной. И что, где первая, где вторая? Получили мы их любовь? Или что-то еще?

А ведь уже удалось зазомбировать довольно большое количество идиотов и просто неучей с нестабильной психикой. Уже рвутся с оружием в руках спасать русскоязычное население — как бы оно к этому взывает. А они и поверили. Ребята в телевизоре, вы чего добиваетесь? Надолго рассорить два народа, живущих бок о бок? У вас получается. А чем это кончается, знаете? Войну с Украиной захотели? Так, как с Абхазией, не выйдет: ребята на Майдане уже закалились и знают, за что бьются, — за свою страну, за свою независимость. А мы за что? За Януковича?

Ребята, зачем вы спрятали его в России? Честный человек не будет укрывать преступника и вора. А вор — будет. Зачем вы себя позорите перед человечеством? Я знаю, что вам наплевать, но все-таки?

Конечно, на Украине наделали массу глупостей — с русским языком, со сносом памятников. Но такие глупости неизбежно сопровождают любую революцию — пружина разгибается в обратную сторону. А потом все встает на места — глупость не может длиться вечно.

Ребята, нам с ними жить. По-прежнему по соседству. И желательно в дружбе. А как им жить, они решат сами.
Или пострелять захотелось? Говорят, патриотизм укрепляет.

Ненадолго."

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

This "typical Right Sector guy" is no other than Alexander Muzychko, who fought on the side of terrorists during the Chechnya campaign and is known for some other "feats". Today this piece of arrogant violence lectures Ukrainian police forces how to behave.

I know virtually everyone here are neo-Soviet Putinists or at least status quo except for some left-wing liberals (and Communists) but Right Sector personnel have demonstrated themselves to be EU stooges in the media lately. So, this entire situation is hopeless. They're not right-wing nor nazis. So, you can all relax now.

Ukraine is F*cked and I can see why mods or no Ukrainians posted now. They are content with the changes. Neo-Soviet Russia trying to control Crimea and what's left of their influence and on the other side, the EU/USA/UN and Israel (of course) with their tentacles so this 'revolution' is a farce. Shoulda seen it.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Joining the EU will open the maket for European goods without any restrictions. Domestic industry will succumb immediately and will be replaced by imports. Same with the agricultural goods. And nobody didn't even guarantee Ukrain the membership. This one-sided 'association' will do nothing to help the Ukraininan economy.

^^^^^^ Да. Правильно.

Apparently there are now 6000 newly arrived Russian soldiers in Crimea.
Hm... It seems they are welcomed by the locals...

My prediction is that Crimea will try to proclaim independence, eventually.
I think they probably had enough of the insecurity and general chaos of Ukrainian politics.
I guess it doesn't matter massively to them, what the world thinks of it, because isn't the economy almost completely around military, agriculture and tourism from ex USSR? In that case, I guess they have nothing to lose and quite a lot to win.

Meanwhile the same shit happens in Venezuela.
Rumors says that China and Russia sent aircraft carriers "Admiral Kuznetsov" and "Shi Lang-07" for "joint exercises".
Let's wait for official info.

ZOG mode on

Meanwhile there are messages about homicides among high rank commanders in the USA.
Such as Navy Commander and Attorney General.

Is it truth?
Is Ukraine a distraction from coup-d'etat in the USA?

ZOG mode off

I think the people in the Crimea should organise a referendum there asap - invite some human rights or EU observers there to monitor, for international credibilty and have a referendum. If the world knows the opinions of the Crimeans, then how can they object to a truly autonomous region, or an independent state..?

They could say that referendum's results were forged, for example.