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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    The Innocence of Pussy Riot — RT

    I know Russians that want to move (from Russia) and tell me about the problems/conditions but why do Russians ignore or sugarcoat them? Sure, the USA is fast becoming a joke in hypocrisy. The two main political parties are virtually the same and liberties in that country are being eradicated.

    But, Russia is no better and it's a major disappointment for me. I don't like the tone and motives of the 'Opposition' but that status quo in Russia is eerily similar to what is going on in other Western countries. The politicians in all these countries are opportunists and traitors yet people in their own (native) countries are so brainwashed and conditioned, they can't honestly evaluate their own. Some are just stubborn. Others are just misinformed or clueless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    liberties in that country are being eradicated
    I'm not sure the existence or non-existence of liberties, or to say it better, the degree of liberties allowed is the major concern for the majority of people. I think most people just want to live their lives. And, in my opinion, at least they want that their government will not make their life worse. Everything else is up to the culture/customs/political fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    The two main political parties are virtually the same [...]
    And both are equally powerful. Meaning, the 'watchdogs' know they are sure to get some support from either side. Which I think is presently among the best options available to fight corruption. One of the respected members of this forum Ramil once said truly that the major difference between Russian and the US internal politics is that: should a fraction of what's known about a typical Russian politician be known in the US, that politician would step down immediately. In Russia, that politician could safely ignore all the 'barking'.

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    Почтенный гражданин capecoddah's Avatar
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    So 'Press TV' and 'RT' aren't being beamed into every TV in the world.

    I think the comments on both sites reveal the reason why.

    "Because the Zionist Jew Rothchild banking cabal won't allow it.
    Oh, and death to AmeriKKKa!"

    With a target audience like that, how am I going to take them seriously?

    It would be nice to read some news (just the facts ma'am) from and about their respective countries without the bias that The Colonialist American Oppressors blah, blah, blah.

    From the Press TV comments:
    "...It looks as Zionits are trying actively infest Russia AGAIN....." Russia talking to Iran
    "go Frankenstorm, go! Take out as much of this sick country as you can!" A hurricane
    " We have witnessed so many cases of drug cheating by zionist "athletes" over the years " Lance Armstrong.

    Somehow it strikes me as odd that Iran protests Press TV not being shown because it's not a sound business decision while trying to isolate itself from outside influences.
    Eric C. likes this.
    I'm easily amused late at night...

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capecoddah View Post
    So 'Press TV' and 'RT' aren't being beamed into every TV in the world.

    I think the comments on both sites reveal the reason why.

    "Because the Zionist Jew Rothchild banking cabal won't allow it.
    Oh, and death to AmeriKKKa!"

    With a target audience like that, how am I going to take them seriously?

    It would be nice to read some news (just the facts ma'am) from and about their respective countries without the bias that The Colonialist American Oppressors blah, blah, blah.

    From the Press TV comments:
    "...It looks as Zionits are trying actively infest Russia AGAIN....." Russia talking to Iran
    "go Frankenstorm, go! Take out as much of this sick country as you can!" A hurricane
    " We have witnessed so many cases of drug cheating by zionist "athletes" over the years " Lance Armstrong.

    Somehow it strikes me as odd that Iran protests Press TV not being shown because it's not a sound business decision while trying to isolate itself from outside influences.
    "I think the comments on both sites reveal the reason why." Why?

    I suppose the target audience of ABC/NBC/CBS (news), CNN, MNBC and Fox News is a better one? Of course, these news sources have no bias. In fact, the entire smorgasbord of MSM news doesn't have a bias, Of course not.

    I see any mention of the word, 'Zionist' puts up blinders for you, automatically. It sounds like your mind is made up and you're conditioned to think one way only. It's no surprise that the poster who concurs, i.e. Eric, thinks the same.

    I don't care what country it is. Banning and censorship is usually a violation of freedoms.

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    ... I see any mention of the word, 'Zionist' puts up blinders for you, automatically. It sounds like your mind is made up and you're conditioned to think one way only. It's no surprise that the poster who concurs, i.e. Eric, thinks the same. ...
    Осторожнее на поворотах: переход на личности - это "но но".
    Наверное, мы в основном все такие: как выросли - не умеем с лёгкостью мнение менять.

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    Осторожнее на поворотах: переход на личности - это "но но".
    Наверное, мы в основном все такие: как выросли - не умеем с лёгкостью мнение менять.
    Careful with what? Why? Maybe I interpreted/translated incorrectly?

    I was just telling the poster above that there is always a bias but I suggest reading everything with an open mind to then evaluate afterward. Even if we don't like it, that 'banning' or disregarding automatically is not the way to go.

    But, everyone jumps to quick conclusions and is ready to hit the censor button as demonstrated.

    P.S. Comments after a 'news' article usually include all kinds of views and statements under the sun.

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    Хотите покажу вам еще одну тяжелую артиллерию пропаганды? Ищите пользователя “leonidmart” на YouTube.
    Это монтаж, но монтаж очень качественный для того, кто не сведущ в видео и звукомонтаже.

    Видеохистинг, социальные сети, Твиттер, торренты и отдельные сайты. Подумав, я решил написать в администрацию президента и ФСБ, чтобы парнем занялись.

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    Подающий надежды оратор
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    Quote Originally Posted by BappaBa View Post
    Ilsa the Tigress of Siberia (1977)
    прототипом видимо была Ильза Кох, только было это в германии и историю нагло переврали.

    А Red Dawn наверное был снят по книгам Ларри Бонда тот ещё, видимо, пропогандист был. Они даже компьютерную игру сейчас умудрились сделать World in Conflict.

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    The free market concept assumes that you cannot steal, but if you're clever enough to make it to the Forbes list acting legally, so let it be. But of course there will be ones complaining about "the darn rich". So, I wonder what other people would consider "rich". Those of you guys who do not like "the rich", could you please name the upper limit of wealth one can have without having to be scrutinized or exposed in media?

  10. #10
    Hanna
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    So you are defending the Russian oligarchs now? Are you denying that people like Usmanov fit into the category of disgustingly rich, and are you saying that their riches are well deserved?

    More so than the workers who spent a lifetime in the factories or mines that the oligarchs snapped up for a pittance.
    The workers are now struggling to pay for decent food and heating, while people like the oligarchs who never worked a day in a mine or a factory is jetsetting around the world spending the fruits of thousands of decent peoples labour.

    That's a situation you want to defend, is it? Let's hear how you do that.

    Here is how these people choose to spend their money abroad, while millions of pensioners in Russia are struggling to get through the day:

    The most obscene bar-fight ever? Russian beats rival in club spending duel with £64k bill | Latest News | News | Daily Star. Simply The Best 7 Days A Week





    They had a competition on who could have the highest bar bill at a members club in central London. Each managed to spend close to $120'000 in just one evening.

    How very tasteful and cool.... (NOT!)

    (these people are beaten only by the Saudis in their vulgarity and arrogance. Seriously)







    If you take the uber rich in Europe (who I am NOT defending), in most cases their wealth was built up over many generations, at least.
    If you take the dot com millionaires, they usually came up with a very clever idea, and work incredibly hard to implement it.
    The uber rich in many of the Northern European nations pay fabulous sums in tax, and are living in societies where there is next to no serious poverty.

    (I personally don't think think any of the above deserve their obscene fortunes regardlesss, t at least there is some rationale)

    Not so with these oligarchs! They grew up under identical conditions as anyone else of their generation, in Russia. They are well familiar with ideological reservations about what they are doing. They know very well that they are shameless opportunitsts and speculants.

    They did not have any unique idea; mining, oil, gas and heavy industry is nothing new at all.
    They did not necessarily work particularly hard, since the enormous profit margins were there from day one.

    They don't even re-invest in their own country, but put the money in offshore, tax haven accounts.

    So go ahead Eric; defend these people. Let's hear how you justify their actions, their wealth or integrity.
    14Russian likes this.

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    The blindness of certain people here makes me incredibly sad, the blindness that doesn't let them read what's being said; not only did I not get an answer to my question, I'm now defending particular oligarchs! That wasn't what I meant at all! I do NOT defend any rich person in particular! I was speaking generally, and my primary concerns were how people treat those much richer than they are in general. I could see here that the treatment wasn't so great, and I got an impression that some people think just because one's rich means they steal someone's property and therefore have to be monitored. Would you agree that such generalization is a bad trend? Everyone should have ability to make as much money as they can using their skills, and no one should be blamed for being richer than someone else. So, my question was solely what that wealth limit that one should exceed to raise hostility from the others is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    ... I got an impression that some people think just because one's rich means they steal someone's property and therefore have to be monitored. Would you agree that such generalization is a bad trend? Everyone should have ability to make as much money as they can using their skills, and no one should be blamed for being richer than someone else. So, my question was solely what that wealth limit that one should exceed to raise hostility from the others is...
    Дело не в количестве денег, а в способе их получения. Но много денег невозможно получить своим трудом. Тут либо паразитизм на своей собственности (когда зарабатывает не человек, а его капитал), либо несправедливое перераспределение того, что заработали другие (менеджеры, не являясь собственниками, могут получать гигантские оклады, бонусы и т.д.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    Дело не в количестве денег, а в способе их получения. Но много денег невозможно получить своим трудом. Тут либо паразитизм на своей собственности (когда зарабатывает не человек, а его капитал), либо несправедливое перераспределение того, что заработали другие (менеджеры, не являясь собственниками, могут получать гигантские оклады, бонусы и т.д.).
    Иметь свой капитал работающим на тебя - это тоже честно, при условия что при его накоплении использовались легальные методы. А насчет бонусов менеджеров - я не думаю что они могут быть получены без согласия собственника.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Иметь свой капитал работающим на тебя - это тоже честно, при условия что при его накоплении использовались легальные методы.
    Ну, это вопрос философский. Нравственные и юридические аспекты первоначального накопления капитала - это разные вещи. Мы же являемся непосредственными свидетелями того, как происходила и происходит приватизация, то есть отчуждение государственной (общей) собственности в пользу частных лиц. Коммунисты считают всю приватизацию в России несправедливой и предлагают её отменить. Путин предлагает применить чисто юридический подход: если юридические формальности были соблюдены, то новый собственник чист (как в случае Абрамовича). Если не соблюдены, то его можно и нужно преследовать в уголовном порядке (как в случае Ходорковского). "Иначе мы слишком далеко зайдём" - это его фраза из ответа по поводу аморальности приватизации в 90-ые годы. Я например видел, как скупалась земля в той местности, где я отдыхаю летом. Земли бывшего коллективного хозяйства были скуплены московским спекулянтом у местных жителей очень дёшево при активной помощи местных властей, которые наверняка были подкуплены. Юридически там всё чисто, но нормы морали там явно нарушены. Местная власть запугивала людей, обманывала их, рекламировала покупателя (занималась PR). А когда сделка состоялась, маски были сброшены. Новый владелец забыл все свои обещания, начал притеснять людей, запрещать ходить по своим землям. Вот статья про него. Президент Медведев несколько лет назад говорил, что земли сельскохозяйственного назначения при их не использовании в течении нескольких лет должны изыматься у собственников, но реально это не делается.

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Most of those aren't even ethnic Russians either. Take a look. Yet, they enjoy the conveniences of Putin's indifference (for most).

    Putin and the other clans 'friendly' to him don't care about it. There is no desire for change but to distract other Russians. I find many Russians are very indifferent or impassive to politics and I suppose, it's understandable, if you think you can't change things. Still, isn't it better to have a recognition of what's going on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Most of those aren't even ethnic Russians either. Take a look. Yet, they enjoy the conveniences of Putin's indifference (for most).

    Putin and the other clans 'friendly' to him don't care about it. There is no desire for change but to distract other Russians. I find many Russians are very indifferent or impassive to politics and I suppose, it's understandable, if you think you can't change things. Still, isn't it better to have a recognition of what's going on?
    Большинство алигархов этнически не русские. Ну и что? Что Macterrussian должен делать по этому поводу?

    " ...Согласно списку журнала "Финанс", по итогам 2009 года "рейтинг" миллиардеров России приблизился к показателям 2007 года. Суммарное состояние десяти богатейших людей России увеличилось почти вдвое по сравнению с прошлым годом и достигло 140 млрд. долларов (75,9 млрд. долларов в 2008-м).

    В первой десятке "рейтинга" есть двое евреев. Вот полный ее список:
    1. Владимир Лисин – 18,8 млрд. долларов (год назад 3-е место)
    2. Михаил Прохоров – 17,8 млрд. (год назад 1-е место)
    3. Роман Абрамович – 17 млрд. (год назад 2-е место)
    4. Сулейман Керимов – 14,5 млрд. (год назад 5-е место)
    5. Михаил Фридман – 14,3 млрд. (год назад 6-е место)
    6. Олег Дерипаска – 13,8 млрд. (год назад 8-е место)
    7. Алишер Усманов – 12,4 млрд. (год назад 10-е место)
    8. Вагит Алекперов – 10,65 млрд. (год назад 4-е место)
    9. Алексей Мордашов – 10 млрд. (год назад 14-е место)
    10. Владимир Потанин - 9,95 млрд. (год назад 7-е место)

    На 11-м месте в "рейтинге" с 9,05 млрд. находится Герман Хан, один из учредителей и спонсоров фонда Genesis. На 66-м месте с 1,2 млрд. долларов находится президент Европейского еврейского конгресса Вячеслав Кантор. На 87-м – Тельман Исмаилов с 860 млн. долларов. ..."


    Подробности: http://izrus.co.il/oligarhi/article/...#ixzz2hjPCEFyK
    «IzRus.co.il»
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    2013:
    http://www.forbes.ru/rating/200-boga...full=1&table=1



    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Most of those aren't even ethnic Russians either. Take a look. Yet, they enjoy the conveniences of Putin's indifference (for most).

    Putin and the other clans 'friendly' to him don't care about it. There is no desire for change but to distract other Russians. I find many Russians are very indifferent or impassive to politics and I suppose, it's understandable, if you think you can't change things. Still, isn't it better to have a recognition of what's going on?
    Well, you guys don't like "the rich"; it's different for me, I don't like those taking on too much power, that is dictators, authoritarian rules, etc. I'm ok with someone having $100B as long as they don't tell others what to do. Absolute power is evil, but absolute wealth is not.

  18. #18
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Well, you guys don't like "the rich"; it's different for me, I don't like those taking on too much power, that is dictators, authoritarian rules, etc. I'm ok with someone having $100B as long as they don't tell others what to do. Absolute power is evil, but absolute wealth is not.
    So you think that there is a difference between having money, and having power?

    Can you really not see that your guy with $100 billion has power. Or your $100 billion annual turnover corporation? Money IS power.

    Who do you think runs the USA for instance? Whoever has the money; corporations or individuals. With the actual people and democracy playing a very distant second fiddle.
    Who would like to pull off the same trick in Brussels as they did in Washington, and are well on their way...

    In the UK, the super rich and very powerful + people who are popular with the establishment have their own Chamber in the Parliament. They can stop new laws and basically choke any initiative they don't like. Virtually everybody who is a billionaire, is also knighted and can have a place there, if they like. All it takes to get in, is a very large donation to some government project.

    The super rich are usually above the law if they commit crimes; they don't usually pay taxes, or only pay as much as they want to.

    Right now I am doing an assignment at a very, very large erm.. international corporation in an extremely lucrative area of business. They are as powerful as the government in many areas. They lobby to get their way, they buy off politicians and businessmen at home and abroad. The state almost certainly to some extent carries out industrial espionage on their behalf and the security services is behind their business in places like Russia and South America. They are one of the main beneficiaries of the two recent wars/invasions that the UK has been involved in. Interesting "chance".

    In Sweden, we have a family that is incredibly rich and has its tentacles in just about every lucrative business. Their actual family creed (in Latin) is "To act, but not be noticed". It's almost laughable because they really give the game away.
    People know they are rich and influential, but nobody knows just how much.
    I have a couple of friends from that actual family. They are (individually) very nice people and those I know are not personally involved in the family business even if they benefit from it. I would not bash them as individuals, necessarily. But that family is an example of someone who gets in bed with anyone with the slightest level of power and influence, and manipulates them. This family was so shrewd that they even managed used 80 years of almost no-interruption social democracy to knock off the competition and get richer. In those days, they had to keep their money abroad, but lately with the "Moderates" ruling, and this family funding one right-wing "think tank" or national publication after another, they can now keep their money at home and be a bit more open.

    To imagine that rich people exist in isolation, is naive.
    How did they get rich, how do they managed to stay rich, or get richer? Obviously because they know how to play the system. Hard work and/or brains alone does not make you a multi billionaire - for that you have to be shrewd and ruthless as well, networking at all levels in society. To stay like that for generations you have to raise your kids right for the purpose.

    Look what Facebook, Google and large ISPs had to do to stay on top. Sell out their users private data to security services. It was a price they were willing to pay.
    The give and take between state and capital goes both ways. They are in bed together. Or rowing the same boat as a famous punk song goes.

    And if you love rich people, prepare to start loving the Chinese! They are just like the family I mention. Not outwardly aggressive or obviously out of control. But they are beginning to buy up major assets in all worthwhile industries in Europe. America is up to its ears in debt to China, and China is the new best friend of many African nations after giving them actual aid on terms the Africans like, in return for stakes in mineral claims.
    They are probably working Russia too, but I don't know exactly how.

    The USA is turning into a debt-ridden, war-obsessed country run by corporations and billionaires while regular people are getting worse off and public services are crumbling.
    China is running a much more effectively controlled ship, and they are not even in a hurry to get there.

    My point is Money=Power.
    Rich people are not the isolated philantropists that you seem to imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    So you think that there is a difference between having money, and having power?

    Can you really not see that your guy with $100 billion has power. Or your $100 billion annual turnover corporation? Money IS power.

    Who do you think runs the USA for instance? Whoever has the money; corporations or individuals. With the actual people and democracy playing a very distant second fiddle.
    Who would like to pull off the same trick in Brussels as they did in Washington, and are well on their way...

    In the UK, the super rich and very powerful + people who are popular with the establishment have their own Chamber in the Parliament. They can stop new laws and basically choke any initiative they don't like. Virtually everybody who is a billionaire, is also knighted and can have a place there, if they like. All it takes to get in, is a very large donation to some government project.

    The super rich are usually above the law if they commit crimes; they don't usually pay taxes, or only pay as much as they want to.

    Right now I am doing an assignment at a very, very large erm.. international corporation in an extremely lucrative area of business. They are as powerful as the government in many areas. They lobby to get their way, they buy off politicians and businessmen at home and abroad. The state almost certainly to some extent carries out industrial espionage on their behalf and the security services is behind their business in places like Russia and South America. They are one of the main beneficiaries of the two recent wars/invasions that the UK has been involved in. Interesting "chance".

    In Sweden, we have a family that is incredibly rich and has its tentacles in just about every lucrative business. Their actual family creed (in Latin) is "To act, but not be noticed". It's almost laughable because they really give the game away.
    People know they are rich and influential, but nobody knows just how much.
    I have a couple of friends from that actual family. They are (individually) very nice people and those I know are not personally involved in the family business even if they benefit from it. I would not bash them as individuals, necessarily. But that family is an example of someone who gets in bed with anyone with the slightest level of power and influence, and manipulates them. This family was so shrewd that they even managed used 80 years of almost no-interruption social democracy to knock off the competition and get richer. In those days, they had to keep their money abroad, but lately with the "Moderates" ruling, and this family funding one right-wing "think tank" or national publication after another, they can now keep their money at home and be a bit more open.

    To imagine that rich people exist in isolation, is naive.
    How did they get rich, how do they managed to stay rich, or get richer? Obviously because they know how to play the system. Hard work and/or brains alone does not make you a multi billionaire - for that you have to be shrewd and ruthless as well, networking at all levels in society. To stay like that for generations you have to raise your kids right for the purpose.

    Look what Facebook, Google and large ISPs had to do to stay on top. Sell out their users private data to security services. It was a price they were willing to pay.
    The give and take between state and capital goes both ways. They are in bed together. Or rowing the same boat as a famous punk song goes.

    And if you love rich people, prepare to start loving the Chinese! They are just like the family I mention. Not outwardly aggressive or obviously out of control. But they are beginning to buy up major assets in all worthwhile industries in Europe. America is up to its ears in debt to China, and China is the new best friend of many African nations after giving them actual aid on terms the Africans like, in return for stakes in mineral claims.
    They are probably working Russia too, but I don't know exactly how.

    The USA is turning into a debt-ridden, war-obsessed country run by corporations and billionaires while regular people are getting worse off and public services are crumbling.
    China is running a much more effectively controlled ship, and they are not even in a hurry to get there.

    My point is Money=Power.
    Rich people are not the isolated philantropists that you seem to imagine.
    I can agree that money can give you some power to some extent, but that's not the power to mess with other ppl's lives. Neither is it the power to break the law and get away with it. When you're rich, you just don't have to break the law, that makes no sense. You've succeeded in life in such a way you can just watch your wealth make even more wealth in a legal market play. If you have say a couple million bucks, you have maybe about a dozen legal ways to make it work for even a bigger wealth of yours. If you have a couple billion bucks, this number is probably hundreds or thousands of ways. Etc. etc. etc. That's what all the major corporations are doing. Btw, speaking of corporations. Look at Microsoft or Apple. I bet ppl like you in the 1970s (and especially hippies) hated "the evil corporations" just about the same way. They said big corporations had taken over everything, there were no ways for small businesses, etc. Well, look at 2 of those small businesses now. Having started from scratch, they've turned into the world's largest software corporations with annual revenue around $100 billion. They were supposed to have no chance to ever make it to this current level back then in the 1970s, but they did, and nothing stopped them. Maybe money's not the problem if people aren't spoiled?

  20. #20
    Hanna
    Guest
    I don't see that you are making any coherent point, other than re-iterating your admiration for rich people and large corporations.

    To each his own...If the throwaways of capitalism is what inspires you then I'm sure you'll be able to find interesting challenges working for an oligarch, in the service industry or in a foreign owned sweatshop. To each his own.

    Odds of you building a legal small business into something profitable are heavily against you, even in well established capitalist economies - I think you have a very romanticized view of it. Most businesses fail. Those that don't have extremely hardworking, ruthless, bold and intelligent leaders. If you fancy those attributes apply to you and envisage that you'll end up a corporate mogul some day yourself, then glad you found a satisfying daydream. Getting Rich is the Opium for the Masses in this day and age. Seems like you are high on it.

    How anyone can find the Russian oligarchs to be inpiring role models is completely beyond me

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