Thread: Occupy Wall Street around the world.... Your thoughts and feelings about it!

Originally Posted by fortheether

No, actually you would be saying that the sun is blue. From your posts here is seems that you have a very left winged view. That's fine, but I don't understand it at all. I am a proud American conservative. You can still believe the left wing media's misinformation about conservatives all that you want but the reality is different. As for your questions, did you read the links? If a bank is forced by the government to give mortgages to people that can't afford mortgages, how is it the banks fault? The USA now has a lot of people that feel they don't have to earn a living but can live off of the government. There is no Obama or any other politician "stash" of money - It is mine and my follow Americans that work, hard earned money. Liberal/socialists believe they can spend my money for the benefit of their careers and I am tired of it. I hope most of my fellow Americans agree and wipe these slime bags out of office and replace them with fiscal conservatives. Yes like Ronald Reagan. This in my opinion is what America needs.

Scott

First of all, this view is so terribly warped as to permanently be a fringe view, in fact bordering on the kind of radicalism and extremism we often find at the bottom of terror-bomber's "explanation" letters, those egotistical, arrogant, self-loving, hypocritical, megalomaniacal hogwash lines that betray an obvious distortion of information somewhere between reception and cognition. "The USA now has a lot of people that feel they don't have to earn a living but can live off of the government." This is not merely a poor interpretation of information - it's simply not true! I put it to you to find me a single person who believes that they never need to come across a dime of income in their lives and can live off of the government. If you do find them, it'll be among the Baby Boomers in their hoverround scooters at the back of the repub rallies.

In addition, I'm very disturbed by your ability to associate yourself PERSONALLY with things that you should have the faculty to discuss with a safe separation between political and personal. Liberal americans are not socialists, you've gravely misunderstood that and I'd expect that any of those folks here who were experiencing real SOCIALISM while I was chilling in AZ and you were chilling in NJ, should set you straight about that.

These liberals don't want "your" money. They want to rip up the pavement of the fast-track your whole party has paved right around the difficulties, often insurmountable, the rest of us encounter when we try to "get there" like the repubs did - "all on their own elbow grease" and all that nonsense. And that's gotta be heartbreaking to people who only made it because they were offered that inside track from the repub party. And.. you keep mentioning "left-wing" media.. Maybe you're not aware that the media is owned by the right. Right down from AP to us below-heaven folks. What is left-wing media? Apple commercials? Google ads??

I'm just like you, Scott, a hard working american who earns his own money. But, my concern for where the money goes and what effect it has on the world goes beyond my own pocketbook, right on into the effect it has on the rest of our country. If the guy next to me was starving, I'd give him part of my paycheck to keep him alive. I wouldn't spit in his change cup and call the local constabulary to haul him off to someplace less disturbing to my eye. Sure, I could spend that money on a Kindle and designer sunglasses. But I don't feel so strongly that what's mine is mine, that I should let the guy next to me suffer, so I can live in luxury. That's not "pride." That's "hate" masked as pride.

FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY is a catch-phrase that people are using to hide the unnanounced fact that, when there's not enough to go around, the priveleged will get what they need, and the underpriveleged will be left to free-fall like sandbags off of a heavy hot air balloon. It doesn't mean "small government." It means "government that panders to the priveleged." Don't believe me? Ask me to explain. It sounds deceptively financial when it's really a call to civil war, that "fiscal" line.

There's no harm with entertaining the idea that banks should be made aware of, and responsible for, the shapes they carve into the economy of america, by being huge money-moving entities, that cull the population based on factors they've worked out internally to mean "you can afford this" and "you can't." Give a marble to one brother, none to the other. Do this everyday. At the end of the week these brothers will be fighting over marbles. Blame the boys? Blame the marbles? No, blame the marble-bestower. Simple. Iniquity needs to represent not only the AMBITIONS of a capitalistic country but also the realistic NEEDS of one. If you have Tamiflu when the swine plague crosses over us, but your hired help doesn't, don't be surprised when they drop dead and now you have to pick up your OWN featherduster and do the job that was below you before. Honestly.. share the Tamiflu and you can keep your maids. Satisfy your republican pride by keeping the lion's share of it - YOU CAN STILL KEEP WAY MORE THAN YOU NEED!! - , but not ALL. See how that works? Compromise a little bit, and you can still spend all your energy focused on your own goals.. But keep your subjects alive. The heart of the low-wage american worker is democratic, but they can be fooled into thinking they're republican, for a few years. Religion works wonders for this. Until the real republican leaders who wear ivy league sweaters reveal that they're not looking out for these workers' interests, or even health, at all, but rather as flesh and labor resources.

Reagan almost destroyed the planet in the name of american luxury, american security, american greed, american power. I'd rather NOT have another ronald rayguns in office, and I am one little part of the majority you're hoping will agree with you.

I hope my fellow americans DISagree with you and wipe slime bags like Romney, Limbaugh Reagan and ilk entirely out of the running, so we're not in danger of another planet-destroying, Dubya-esque megalomaniac seeing to it that the best of everything goes to the top 1% and that the 99% are offered a rabbit on a string for dinner, forever to be yanked just out of reach as they run a track drawn out by republican chessmasters designed to keep them working to spin their wheel.

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12004

Dov Seidman on his book "How: Why How We Do Anything Means Everything”
Also on Occupy...

on Monday, November 21, 2011

I think that, as usual, the truth is somewhere in between. I mean, on the one hand there are lots of people on a financial relief who just plain enjoy the situation and are busy making some extra untaxed cash on top of what the government (=the other people that is) is providing them with. On the other hand, though, there are lots of people who would LOVE to go on doing skilled jobs and are qualified to do it, but are plain stuck with some specific situations: like they don't have the local experience and have poor lying skills to pretend they do. Even though I'm also on the conservative side, and I think the socialism and communism are definitely not the way to go, I must admit the capitalism also has lots of embedded social issues. So, there should be some balance and, I guess, the only way to get close to it would be to allow the competition between the left and the right to make the system fluctuate around some optimal values.

Also, kidkboom, if you allow me to make a comment, there seems to be a noticeable gap in some of the leftist logical deductions you mentioned above. You see, it is definitely humane to share what you have, and it's also socially-proven as right throughout the centuries. However, there are various ways to get there. Do you think a BUREAUCRAT would be a better person to distribute the 'extra wealth' fairly? Do you think you are not capable to make that decision yourself of how much you want to spend and to whom you want to give it? Are you aware that some very rich people find it humane to establish their own relief funds and campaign for it among their circles and in the media? I bet you are, but it seems like a tiny drop in the ocean of what needs to be done, particularly because MOST OF THE MONEY HAD ALREADY BEEN TAKEN BY THAT VERY BUREAUCRAT and spent to whatever that guy seems right. Have you ever seen how much power and influence those officers have? And they use that power to their own satisfaction. They are generally rude, speak their narrow mind with superiority and they know those who are on a relief usually don't have much choice and have to take it all. No wonder the not-so-fortunate people's perception of the government is usually formed based on their own experience with those rude officers. And you can't blame them, but in the end you have a situation with people who don't work anywhere (or work illegally constantly worrying because legally they can't make an extra dollar as they would loose all their benefits) and at the same time they hate the government and (SURPRISE!) everybody who makes more money. So, you don't spit in their change cup, but instead of giving them some change you would open your wallet to a stranger and say: "ok, ask how much the poor people in this street need, take that from my wallet and give it to them." So, after doing that you wonder why instead of the grateful "thank you" all you hear is the shouts of hatred and envy from the alcohol-n-drug impaired people in your neighborhood. Can that situation qualify as what you intended it to be?

Uploaded by OccupyTVNY on Nov 21, 2011

Вот хорошо разжевано.

(Some good analysis in Russian.)

Originally Posted by Lampada

Uploaded by OccupyTVNY on Nov 21, 2011

I like the music in the video. Do they have any videos of what their goals are and how to achieve them?

Scott

Do they have any videos of what their goals are and how to achieve them?

They would like to save your country for being pulled down into the gutter by greedy bankers.
Is that good enough?
And when you look at what these cockroaches have already done towards the US I am surprised that every normal American isn't behind OWST. Greed managed to literally destroy a superpower that was really quite decent and had everything going for it at the end of WW2.

The Roman empire took a thousand years to destroy. Corporate and banking greed did the job to the USA in only a few decades. How ironical that nukes had nothing to do with it.

And that's compared to the other recent superpower, the USSR, which hated itself so much that it just gave up and fell apart. Unprecedented!

And meanwhile China's star is continuing to rise.

Originally Posted by Hanna

They would like to save your country for being pulled down into the gutter by greedy bankers.
Is that good enough?
And when you look at what these cockroaches have already done towards the US I am surprised that every normal American isn't behind OWST. Greed managed to literally destroy a superpower that was really quite decent and had everything going for it at the end of WW2.

The Roman empire took a thousand years to destroy. Corporate and banking greed did the job to the USA in only a few decades. How ironical that nukes had nothing to do with it.

And that's compared to the other recent superpower, the USSR, which hated itself so much that it just gave up and fell apart. Unprecedented!

And meanwhile China's star is continuing to rise.

There's a lot more wrong with my country than greedy bankers and corporations. I think that both houses of congress and both political parties are doing a lot more damage than anyone else. I'm surprised that every normal American is not against OWST.

Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

... I'm surprised that every normal American is not against OWST.
Scott

Anonymous hacks cops coordinating Occupy evictions - PERF goes down - National Anonymous | Examiner.com

People who left comments over there sound like normal Americans, don't they?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Anonymous hacks cops coordinating Occupy evictions - PERF goes down - National Anonymous | Examiner.com

People who left comments over there sound like normal Americans, don't they?

I used the term "normal Americans" in response to Hanna's use:

And when you look at what these cockroaches have already done towards the US I am surprised that every normal American isn't behind OWST.

Which implies that I'm not a normal American because I don't support OWST.

Bill O'Reilly: The Failure of the 'Occupy Wall Street' Movement - Talking Points - The O'Reilly Factor - Fox News

I do "walk the walk" with my life though. Recently at my work I needed some cash - I went to a Bank of America ATM - it wanted a $3 fee to get cash. I drove away and went to Shop Rite and bought some gum and with no fee got cash. I try to use the bank with the least amount of fees.



Scott

This in my opinion is part of what is wrong with the USA:

Arizona Lawmakers Say They Will Build Border Fence | Fox News

The federal government should already be taking care of this. Illegal immigration is very expensive to us taxpayers.

Scott

Originally Posted by fortheether

This in my opinion is part of what is wrong with the USA:

Arizona Lawmakers Say They Will Build Border Fence | Fox News

The federal government should already be taking care of this. Illegal immigration is very expensive to us taxpayers.

Scott

"A fence slows down traffic. It doesn't stop it," he says. "You need to put your money in effective resources that you know will work."

Make it higher, and connect it to an AC line (said with no irony or sarcasm).

Originally Posted by Ramil

LOLWUT? Is this some kind of a joke?
In other words - we do not want to work, let them rich feed us.
I thought better of these clowns. This is ridiculous!

Ramil... if someone already responded to you... sorry... but when I read this I too was surprised and took a look at the link. There is now this note:

Admin Note: This is not an official list of demands. The user "bchang1987" who posted this speaks only for themself, not the movement. This website would never in a million years endorse a list of demands of the 1%.

Now... I did come across what IMHO is an interesting blog from a 1% who claims he is also a 99%

Scott might be able to support this one...

What the Occupy Movement Should Demand - Barry Schuler's Synapsis

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Ramil... if someone already responded to you... sorry... but when I read this I too was surprised and took a look at the link. There is now this note:

Now... I did come across what IMHO is an interesting blog from a 1% who claims he is also a 99%

Scott might be able to support this one...

What the Occupy Movement Should Demand - Barry Schuler's Synapsis

Scott absolutely supports what was written. It's an excellent article in my opinion.

Thank you for posting it!

Scott

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Ramil... if someone already responded to you... sorry... but when I read this I too was surprised and took a look at the link. There is now this note:

Now... I did come across what IMHO is an interesting blog from a 1% who claims he is also a 99%

Scott might be able to support this one...

What the Occupy Movement Should Demand - Barry Schuler's Synapsis

Is that what they should be asking for?

The answer is simple and elegant: outlaw “Blame” in the political discourse. We should demand that our politicians only talk to us with proposals and solutions. They should keep the finger pointing and fighting behind closed doors. We don’t need to see the sausage making. If they can’t produce solutions. Vote them out. Forget about party politics, vote for anyone who gets things done.

Is that all? Just stop talking about what prevented you doing anything and talk about how to solve this problem? Is that the recipe of overall well-being for all?
No, this is not. I still cannot see what the protesters are trying to achieve there? What, Obama will come to them and say 'your debts are all forgiven'? This won't happen. They made their point already and that point has been taken as far as I could tell. What's next? America's virtually a bankrupt. All that is holding things together now is people's faith in its economy. Faith only, nothing more. These protests undermine that faith.

For Americans who still have their heads in the sand... (you know who you are... )
This is what your friends in the UK / BBC /say about you... and then you can imagine what the enemies say.



Basically you've been had!!! And the Wall Street Occupiers are just trying to make people wake up and take back control from whatever shady interests are really erunning the country from behind the scenes. Drawing it deeper and deeper into irrepairable debt, while China is laughing all the way to the bank.

Really, Americans have been had almost as badly as Russians were in the 1990s. Oh how the mighty fall...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Basically you've been had!!! And the Wall Street Occupiers are just trying to make people wake up and take back control from whatever shady interests are really erunning the country from behind the scenes. Drawing it deeper and deeper into irrepairable debt, while China is laughing all the way to the bank.

There are some countries where public debt is much higher than GDP and it doesn't change much for people living there (for example Japan)
And there are some countries having public debt much lower than GDP but people living poorly there (including Russia and China)

Also there are some countries having external debt much higher than GDP, meaning that business there is practically owned by other countries and Sweden for example is one of them (external debt of Sweden is 1.87 times higher than GDP of Sweden). Do you feel bad living in that country Hanna?

My point is - w/o understanding the meaning of these number it is all just mass media populism

Originally Posted by Doomer

Also there are some countries having external debt much higher than GDP, meaning that business there is practically owned by other countries and Sweden for example is one of them (external debt of Sweden is 1.87 times higher than GDP of Sweden). Do you feel bad living in that country Hanna?

II actually think you have the wrong figure there, because I have heard something else but I can't be fussed to look it up. Regardless, I don't feel TERRIBLY bad, there are lots worse countries to live in. But this country has been going downhill, mark my words! When I grew up we were constantly told that we lived in the best welfare state and one of the fairest and most caring countries in the world. (pride cometh before fall... lol) But it was largely true. Now, it is not really better than anywhere else in Northern Europe and some of the old welfare institutions are a hinderance rather than helping people. Tons of publically owned institutions and organisations were sold off and their services have become worse, but more expensive. Trains being the best example. There are even private schools and nursing homes that are allowed to make a profit and take the profit out of the country. Not even the UK allows that.

Back on topic:

As for the economic situation not being noticeable in the country affected, of course it is!

That's why people migrate. That's why there is unemployment. This type of thing happend in Ireland a few years ago, and also in Iceland. Young people are leaving both these countries in droves... the most resourceful people that is. They cannot get a job at home, or they do not get the level of salary that they want. London is absolutely swarmed with Irish people, and similarly Icelandic people go to Scandinavia. Something like this also happened in Latvia, and despite it being a very small country, I have run into lots of Latvians in London, in Stockholm.

Greek people have already started migrating to Italy, the UK or anywhere really within the EU where they feel there are better opportunities for them.

Within the EU you can move anywhere you want, as long as you can handle the language situation and get a job. Most educated people speak at least one foreign language fluently; English or the language of a large neighbouring country. So that's how people migrate.

In the USA, I guess there is nowhere to migrate, since it is so big, there is no obvious neighbouring country to move to and people don't speak foreign languages in general. I suppose people will move to the more viable areas rather than staying in smaller cities.

But don't be so naive to think that there will continue to be lots of well paid jobs available, cheap housing and affordable clothes and gadgets. Gradually your living standard will reduce with the currently outlook.
Or it could take a nose dive if the dollar falls (not unlikely) or the Chinese decide to allow their currency to float.

Take an office clerk in the US and compare it with an office clerk in China.
Is there some built-in law of the universe that says that the Chinese person should live in a crummy small flat, riding a bike to work, while the American should live in a house and drive a car... just for starters, despite the fact that they are doing the same job and there is no difference in skill or efficiency.

China is able to invest in infrastructure, education, hospitals etc now. They are building all the insitututions that makes a country great and influential. They are creating relationships in the third world based on trading and bartering skills for resources (as opposed to waging wars, placing military bases there, infiltration of spies and manipulation of foreign governments).

Their country is run by a party that hand picks the elite from the top universities to form its' economic and foreign policies.
They are not distracted by elections or undue media scrutiny (for better or worse), and they are not hugely influenced by lobbyists apart from fairly obvious practice of bribing officials - something they are trying to stamp out.

They are running their country in a focussed way, with one goal - to get to the top, and take the people with them (at least eventually)

Meanwhile the USA is run from behind the facade of "democracy" by bankers and large corporations that have no long term vision other than the next bonus or dividient payout. These interests don't care about the citizens, about the reputation of the country or about acting ethically in anyway. Things that it indignantly accuses its opponents of doing, it is doing itself in the open or behind the scene. It has become a hypocritical country in the extreme, whereas China as a comparison has never made any claims to being democratic or having a "human rights" focus, whatever this might mean.

Don't get me wrong, I am not idolozing China, in fact I don't even like China. Nor am I speaking from any position of superior knowledge.

But I think it's more honest towards the world and its own citizens about what it's about and what it's trying to achieve.
It is run in a more focussed way that will ultimately benefit its citizens a lot more.

In the US, the huge wealth that still exists does not benefit the majority and shortly as the dollar starts dropping, it will find its way to safer currencies , in offshore destinations where it will do absolutely no good to the Americans that generated it.

You will be left with a huge military empire, no industry lead in any sector and a population who has lost its way.
Perhaps a bit similar to what happened in Russia in the 1990s.

Military might will be all that the US has left as leverage externally. And internally, the only way for the current elites to stay in power will be to restrict democracy even further, or find some excuse to stop it altogether. Since all big media in America is in the hands of these exact elites it shouldn't be hard to sell some propaganda to the people to get them to accept it.

This is how I think things will develop in the USA unless you wake up and do something now.
Like elect a completely new party to power, that is not corrupted by influence from lobbyists. Stop all wars immediately and focus on building up industry and improving education within the country.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Greed managed to literally destroy a superpower that was really quite decent and had everything going for it at the end of WW2.

[Trying to work in a little Russian practice... ]

Именно чья жадность, и жадность к чему?! (Namely whose greed, and greed for what?!)

Do you mean the greed of a middle-class family who greedily wanted to eat steak four times a month (every Sunday), instead of having steak only once a month, and who greedily bought their made-in-China clothes at Walmart, instead of slightly more expensive made-in-Ukraine clothes from Macy's, so that they'd have some extra money for steak, and who greedily purchased an SUV because it had more cargo space so that they could save gas by going to the grocery store less often, and also because they greedily wanted to protect their children, and they believed that an SUV is more likely to survive a highway collision than a tiny economy car?

No, I am talking about greed of the banks and corporations that are plundering your country while you (apparently) cannot afford to eat steak...