Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

What does this supposed oppression and censorship in Russia matter to you 14Russian? You don't live there. Let the people who live there worry about it, and do something about it if it really bothers them. It's nobody else's business. First of all, the extent to which it happens can be debated. Secondly, it doesn't seem to massively bother the Russian population - if it really did, we'd here a lot of noise about it from Russia. I hear the odd Russian expat or token opposition figure mention it, nothing more. Thirdly, who are we to judge?

Try to express a politically incorrect opinion in Western Europe: 1) it won't be published unless you are famous 2) if you managed to get your point of view published, every other article will assasinate your character 3) if it's radical enough you'll land yourself on a security services watchlist - and the indications are that they can read whoever's correspondence or listen to phonecalls as they please.

• Russia has one party that rightly or wrongly keeps winning elections.
• We have several parties that are almost identical and any serious opposition or manifestations are cracked down on.

What's the big difference?

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. If you said that you lived in Russia had started a newspaper that was critical of the government and was harassed for it, I'd take you a bit more seriously.
But you don't live there and all you do is repeat propaganda. As you know, it annoys me that you come to a forum about Russia to carry out your anti-Russia agitation. Not that you can't hold whatever opinion you like, but it seems downright rude to do it here of all places. Not to mention spam/troll-like

Anyone English speaking that wants to hear these types of opinions can pick up the nearest newspaper or turn on CNN. I think most people use this forum for the inside story or background. Definitely not to hear the usual anti-Russia rhetoric switched up a notch by you.

Originally Posted by Hanna

What does this supposed oppression and censorship in Russia matter to you 14Russian? You don't live there. Let the people who live there worry about it, and do something about it if it really bothers them. It's nobody else's business. First of all, the extent to which it happens can be debated. Secondly, it doesn't seem to massively bother the Russian population - if it really did, we'd here a lot of noise about it from Russia. I hear the odd Russian expat or token opposition figure mention it, nothing more. Thirdly, who are we to judge?

Try to express a politically incorrect opinion in Western Europe: 1) it won't be published unless you are famous 2) if you managed to get your point of view published, every other article will assasinate your character 3) if it's radical enough you'll land yourself on a security services watchlist - and the indications are that they can read whoever's correspondence or listen to phonecalls as they please.

• Russia has one party that rightly or wrongly keeps winning elections.
• We have several parties that are almost identical and any serious opposition or manifestations are cracked down on.

What's the big difference?

The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind. If you said that you lived in Russia had started a newspaper that was critical of the government and was harassed for it, I'd take you a bit more seriously.
But you don't live there and all you do is repeat propaganda. As you know, it annoys me that you come to a forum about Russia to carry out your anti-Russia agitation. Not that you can't hold whatever opinion you like, but it seems downright rude to do it here of all places. Not to mention spam/troll-like

Anyone English speaking that wants to hear these types of opinions can pick up the nearest newspaper or turn on CNN. I think most people use this forum for the inside story or background. Definitely not to hear the usual anti-Russia rhetoric switched up a notch by you.

(Deleted.L.) I already know about Western Europe, thanks, but the topic is Russia. If you want to think the assertions I've made are 'propaganda' I really don't care. (Deleted.L.)

Опять двадцать пять! Народы, не накаляйте форумную атмосферу. Это нормально, чтобы высказывались различные суждения, но - без переходов на личности, без неуважительных выпадов и без оскорбления чьих бы то ни было патриотических чувств.
Призываю соблюдать порядок и спокойствие!

Originally Posted by Lampada

Призываю соблюдать порядок и спокойствие!

Ok, sorry if I went too far!

Почему такая реакция на "народы"? Всегда были "братские народы" и ничего.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Почему такая реакция на "народы"? Всегда были "братские народы" и ничего.

Шутка юмора не не понята Ладно, мои извинения.

Originally Posted by Lampada

А чё, есть про-Обама.
http://goldenageofgaia.com/into-the-golden-age-of-gaia/pro-obama/

Well, I admit, now you've mentioned them

Baltic States have practically nothing. Yet they claim to be living in fear of Russia!
If they are so scared of that, why don't they all get large armies and bring in military service?

Belarus on the other hand seems to have a really large military. Who/what are they afraid of..?

These are rather simple questions, IMHO. Baltic States are NATO members with collective defense system, and it's now mainly the US responsibility to protect them in the event of any aggression, in accordance with the charter of the organization. So they can save up a little bit of cash for other more pragmatic purposes that can give a return in the future. It's as simple as that. As for Belarus, they are basically afraid of the USA and NATO. It’s crucial for most dictators to instill the belief that enemies abound and ready to attack at any moment. That feeling of external aggression allows them to make the population more loyal and obedient to the dictator and ready to bear the brunt of current economic and political hardships with less complaint, because there is a good reason for it.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

(Вытерто. Л.) Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government? That is quite a narrow viewpoint.

No. There probably are people who support sovereignty and oppose the interim government. Did you have an example?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else. I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights. Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs. There is no justification.

I don't like it or dislike it. I'm only concerned about what happens next. And nobody can deny that it would dramatically increase hostilities in a situation that's already explosive.
Everything I've posted in this thread has been facts that can be found in the mainstream Western media. The only emotional statement I've made was this: "As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!"
If you are looking at this with neutral eyes then you must answer these questions:
1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering?
3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there. It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction. Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian. I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.

That's why I verify anything I find in the media. I haven't posted anything that can't be verified by the facts. I will also be happy to post links that support any statement I've made. All my sources are bookmarked and very well organized.
And yeah, real-life Ukrainian comments on the crisis are very important. But don't forget that those Russian-speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years UNDER Russian-friendly Ukrainian Presidents. To know how they are living under the interim government, you will have to talk to the Russian-speaking activists.
But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
LOL! You obviously talk to no Russians.

I wasn't talking about buying a new Lamborghini. But if I was, I'd be all over those CEO's to get an Egoista! It totally does own the market!
You obviously play safe. I don't. I won't really know Russia till I've lived there (and I'm not talking about the expat zone). Btw, I cooked my first Borscht and it was the most awesome food I've ever eaten. I'll be making blini tomorrow. Russian food FTW!
I got the Recipes from Russian sites and translated them.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this? I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here). It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible. Quite the tactic (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored. Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized. There's always the possibility of a hostile response.

What did rights in Russia have to do with this? And it's only one-sided debates that are "tactics". I was just pointing out that all nations are imperfect and that harsh Nationalistic criticism of the nations involved is pointless.
Please define "pro-Putin views". Anyway, like I mentioned in another thread (I don't remember which one), I have studied both world history and military history and I know a little about politics too. But I do NOT wanna be a politician or a political critic. The only non-civilian interests I have are in the military.
Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin. Not sure why you throw out that example. Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.
You obviously have a lot to learn about the country. Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

I threw out the Russia Today example because it was in dad's bookmarks. Since I don't have a serious interest in politics, I get a lot of help with my posts from him. And this isn't school so it's not cheating.
And if the Kremlin is monitoring Russia Today then fine... If they don't mess up the sports section or the cartoons.
What is a "pro-Putin type Russian"? *seriously confused*
But you're right. I do have a LOT to learn about Russia and I'll be learning most of it when I get there. I mean you can read about swimming 24/7/365 but you don't really know what it is till you jump in the water. I didn't really know what 3 meter diving was till I touched the bottom of the pool. And yeah, it was kinda scary but I wouldn't be diving off 3 meter boards if I hadn't tried.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Anyway, I only need enough freedom to write (fiction, nothing political), study, explore (especially the outdoors), and basically have a happy and productive life (I'm very active and ambitious). So I really don't care what country that's in unless it's North Korea.

It might not be the right place to put this up, but since you already touched upon this subject...

Russia Approves Law Imposing Stricter Rules On Bloggers

So, your freedom to write is being seriously restricted in a certain country, and the scariest part of that is that it only seems to be the beginning...

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

1. Why doesn't Russia have the right to interfere?
2. What solid proof do you have that Russia is interfering?
3. What solid proof do you have that there are Russian provocateurs in Ukraine?
4. Why is there no justification for Russian intervention?

If answers ##1 & 4 aren't obvious to you, then would you mind answering if ANY OTHER country has a right to interfere there, and if such an interference would be justified, and if not, then why?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

But how any of the Ukrainians feel about the conflict, only Ukrainians really know. And it wasn't the focus of my debate.

And it should have been. For that conflict is happening on the Ukrainian territory, and it's the Ukrainians who have the final word in that argument.

The only problems I know for Russian language not being a state language:
- Official documentation is written in Ukrainian. It should be noted that not all papers are required to be written in Ukrainian. Also it's quite possible that some organizations ignore such rules and take documents in Russian anyway.
- Scientific projects. Students are forced to write their projects in Ukrainian which might be slight problem.
- Russian movies dubbed in Ukrainian. Nuff said.
I admit that it might not be an important factor.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

The only problems I know for Russian language not being a state language:
- Official documentation is written in Ukrainian. It should be noted that not all papers are required to be written in Ukrainian. Also it's quite possible that some organizations ignore such rules and take documents in Russian anyway.
- Scientific projects. Students are forced to write their projects in Ukrainian which might be slight problem.
- Russian movies dubbed in Ukrainian. Nuff said.
I admit that it might not be an important factor.

Besides, as I might guess, the Russian speaking community that resides in Ukraine can speak perfect Ukrainian, in addition to their knowledge of Russian, and therefore either of the two languages being or not being the official state language is really no big deal for them.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Besides, as I might guess, the Russian speaking community that resides in Ukraine can speak perfect Ukrainian, in addition to their knowledge of Russian, and therefore either of the two languages being or not being the official state language is really no big deal for them.

You might be wrong. The majority of population speaks the mixed language called "сурджик". "Perfect Ukrainian" can be the everyday life language for only 10-15%. Also it's an open question what dialect can be considered "perfect", because there are at least two of them (actually four).
Moreover, the fact that you can speak a language doesn't mean you might want to use it in your daily life. We all speak English here, but it doesn't mean that everyone would be fine with it as the only (the only one, mind you) state language in our countries (well, to a reasonable extent, of course).

Ccылка на Жж вытерта. Л.

Сижу в интернетах, фильтрую данные и не понимаю, что происходит. Огромное количество свидетельств, что украинские силовые структуры на территории Донецкой и Луганской областей прямо способствуют пресловутым захватам административных зданий. Не просто бездействуют в силу неорганизованности или страха, а именно способствуют захвату и пресекают попытки сопротивления и освобождения (теми же футбольными ультрас или добровольческими формированиями). Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.

Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет. Надо перечитать "Все, способные держать оружие" и "Миллиард лет до конца света"

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.

Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет.

Пофантазирую.

Ну, раз мы отбрасываем "агентов Кремля в силовых структурах", то получается что Киев (+Вашингтон) намеренно, причём невынужденно форсированно, сдаёт Донбасс. Без договорённости с Москвой, что она не пойдёт дальше, он этого делать не стал бы. А зачем Москве отказываться от остального Юго-Востока? Ну, может, получив практический опыт, считают что недостаточно велики шансы на успех, или слишком велики издержки. Но зато они могут выторговать решение многих проблем по Крыму, НАТО и кто знает что ещё. Правда, придётся объяснять своему народу, почему бросили братский народ на растерзание фашистам. Ну а Донбасс скорее всего придется как-то пристраивать обратно к Украине.
Эта версия имеет смысл только если сознательная сдача началась относительно недавно, а сначала всё было всерьез.

Но версия "агентов Кремля/Януковича" или просто развала как-то проще, привычней, надёжней.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Сижу в интернетах, фильтрую данные и не понимаю, что происходит. Огромное количество свидетельств, что украинские силовые структуры на территории Донецкой и Луганской областей прямо способствуют пресловутым захватам административных зданий. Не просто бездействуют в силу неорганизованности или страха, а именно способствуют захвату и пресекают попытки сопротивления и освобождения (теми же футбольными ультрас или добровольческими формированиями). Речь идет не только об отдельных местных начальниках или милицейских отделах, а о подразделениях самого разного подчинения, включая подчиненные Киеву непосредственно, причем о слаженной работе разных служб в этом направлении.

Вменяемых объяснений этому явлению у меня пока нет. Надо перечитать "Все, способные держать оружие" и "Миллиард лет до конца света"

Есть мнение, что "дама с косой" со своей бандой (Турчинов, Яценюк & Со) специально раздувают пожар, чтобы сорвать выборы, так как все опросы показывают, что на них победит Порошенко, американцы на него уже сделали ставку. Юля любым способом пытается удеражаться у власти, эта милая дамочка всю страну зальёт кровью ради этого, если понадобится.

Вроде бы военные все еще действуют крайне аккуратно: вертолеты сбиваются, а о жертвах с другой стороны не слышно. Тымчук, неофициальный голос СБУ, вещает, что зелененькие после стрельбы по вертолетам получили приказ бросать Славянск на мясо и перебираться в Горловку устраивать там то же самое.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Есть мнение, что "дама с косой" со своей бандой (Турчинов, Яценюк & Со) специально раздувают пожар, чтобы сорвать выборы, так как все опросы показывают, что на них победит Порошенко, американцы на него уже сделали ставку. Юля любым способом пытается удеражаться у власти, эта милая дамочка всю страну зальёт кровью ради этого, если понадобится.

Есть такое мнение. Дамочка малопредсказуемая. Но по моим прикидкам такой власти у нее одной быть не может. Что касается нашей "хунты", она слишком неорганизованная. Тот же Кролик, например, под Юлей ходит очень недолго. Он - самостоятельная величина, и Юля для него - обуза, так что подставляться ради нее он бы не стал.

Если предполагать у нее наличие сильного союзника, то это может быть некто, договорившийся с Путиным, что станет абсолютным властителем "Донбасской НР". Вроде бы такой силой и такими амбициями может располагать только Ахметов. Но он по всем прикидкам теряет больше, чем приобретает.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Вроде бы военные все еще действуют крайне аккуратно: вертолеты сбиваются, а о жертвах с другой стороны не слышно. Тымчук, неофициальный голос СБУ, вещает, что зелененькие после стрельбы по вертолетам получили приказ бросать Славянск на мясо и перебираться в Горловку устраивать там то же самое.

The defenders of Slavyansk have reported casualties - three militia, two civilians. Also they say that any messages about the city being captured are lies, the fight still goes on.
Yet, even if they are wrong, it's kinda early to relax.

Just like you, I wish it was fake. However, I doubt it.
If it's real, I must remind that all these people used to be (or even remain) the citizens of Ukraine (wasn't this guy a former "Berkut" leader?).

Originally Posted by Eric C.

It might not be the right place to put this up, but since you already touched upon this subject...
Russia Approves Law Imposing Stricter Rules On Bloggers
So, your freedom to write is being seriously restricted in a certain country, and the scariest part of that is that it only seems to be the beginning...

Thanks for the link. But I'm not surprised that they defined viral blogs as public media. But what's really interesting in that article is President Putin calling the internet a "CIA project". If anyone else said that I'd call them a nutjob. But Putin was a high-ranking officer in the KGB for 16 years so I'm listening.
But does the new law affect me as a writer? Even as a Russian citizen it wouldn't affect me because I have no interest in journalism or supporting political unrest. I only write fiction and sci-fi and btw, if I was a Russian citizen I would be a Putin supporter. Very few world leaders have ever impressed me but Vladimir Putin has. Nobody's perfect but I consider him one of the greatest leaders in human history. The hero in my first book is a lot like him.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

If answers ##1 & 4 aren't obvious to you, then would you mind answering if ANY OTHER country has a right to interfere there, and if such an interference would be justified, and if not, then why?

In a perfect world, no country would have the right to interfere. But this isn't a perfect world and I'm not an idealist. Poland and Lithuania could claim a right to interfere since they invested a lot of time and resources in Western Ukraine. But it still wouldn't be that important for security reasons. Tbh, no other country has a valid reason to interfere in Ukraine except Russia since they built so much of Ukraine. The Western staged coup of the democratically elected leaders of Ukraine and the new US installed government are a direct threat to Russian national security in a country that wasn't a threat to Europe or the US. Ukraine only wanted modernization. Now what they'll be getting is austerity.
As for the UN, I don't believe it serves anything but the West. I also consider it to be a corrupt organization that only listens to 1/2 of the world (the Western half).

Originally Posted by Eric C.

And it should have been. For that conflict is happening on the Ukrainian territory, and it's the Ukrainians who have the final word in that argument.

There are rules for any debate. The topic I chose was undeniable facts and the International arena. I would have to be in Ukraine to discuss the Ukrainian views of the crisis.
And I disagree with your last statement. Imo, It's the NGO's and other foreign agents operating in Ukraine that will have the final word. I don't believe that it was the Ukrainian people that started the conflict and I don't believe they'll be happy with the outcome.
The only demand I saw from the Ukrainians was for modernization. My question is, why has every country involved refused that demand? And that's as idealistic as I get...
But if I was an idealist then I would say, why not invest in Ukraine from the east and the west and modernize it... instead of using it this summer for NATO military exercises and forcing it into austerity? Yeah that's fiction but it sounds cool.