Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

I live in Russia, as many other people with Ukrainian ancestry, in the city of Orel. I think that about 20 to 30% of the population of my city are of Ukrainian origin, and if you take such regions as Kursk, Belgorod (where my father is from) there are even more ethnic Ukrainians. On the other hand such cities as Kharkov or Zaporozhie have mostly Russian population.

Похоже всё-таки в Славянске правят бал никакие не ГРУ-шники, а самые настоящие казаки-разбойники. Тамошний командир "ополчения" Игорь Стрелков идейный монархист и Путина, оказывается, терпеть не может. Вот некоторые из его высказываний:

Я "присутствовал" при распаде Союза уже во вполне дееспособном (20 лет) возрасте. Уже тогда был сознательным монархистом, но при всем антисоветском настрое, меня одолевали противоречивые чувства. С одной стороны, было удовлетворение тем, что на глазах рушится антихристианское, антирусское, античеловечное в своей основе государство. С другой - понимание того, что оно именно РУШИТСЯ... и под его обломками вряд ли сможет произойти возрождение исторической России. Еще было острое предчувствие, что люди, которые встали во главе "революции", есть плоть от плоти самой гнусной разновидности советской партийной номенклатуры и действуют в сугубо личных корыстных интересах. К сожалению, это предчувствие полностью оправдались.
Вполне сознательно, не смотря на настойчивые приглашения, я не пошел "защищать Белый Дом" в 91-м (хотя меня кое-кто из тогдашних соратников прямо обвинил в трусости и даже "измене").
По моему глубокому убеждению, большевистская власть по сей день остается в России. Да, она мутировала почти до неузнаваемости. Да, формальная идеология этой власти сменила знак на прямо противоположный. Но она остается неизменной в основе: в своей антирусской, антипатриотической, антирелигиозной направленности. В ее рядах - прямые потомки тех самых людей, которые "делали" революцию 17-го. Они просто перекрасились, но сути не изменили. Отбросив идеологию, мешавшую им обогащаться и наслаждаться материальными благами, они остались у власти. А процесс прямого уничтожения русского народа (и других коренных народов бывшей Российской Империи) продолжаетсяю Другими средствами, но настолько "успешно", что оторопь берет.
В 1991 году был переворот. Контрреволюции до сих пор не состоялось.
...нам надо поддерживать Путина? Конечно, нет! Вернее, его можно было бы поддержать - при кардинальной смене им курса, отказа от компрадорского и насквозь проворовавшегося окружения... Но вероятность, что он пойдет на это - ничтожно мала. Вся его политика - это "качели"... он пытается "раздать всем сестрам по серьгам" - и Западу угодить и на "патриотов" опереться... Типичная политика латиноамериканского "диктаторчика", дорвавшегося до власти и никому не желающего ее уступать - потому что рассматривает ее исключительно как "пъедестал для себя любимого".
Но "болото" взорвано изнутри... стоячая вода перемешалась... наряду с гнильем и грязью, наверх выходят и задавленные слои, которые одинаково несовместимы ни с Путиным, ни с его "либеральными оппонентами" (которые суть - всего лишь "разные фланги" одного антироссийского фронта). Мы еще имеем шанс увидеть и ярких новых лидеров и силы, которые пойдут за ними. Голосовать на этих выборах можно за кого угодно - они ничего не решают. Впереди - новая схватка. Стране она обойдется очень недешево... но ... лучше сгореть, чем сгнить.

Похоже, они там решили из Донбасса плацдарм для переворота в РФ готовить. Только этого нам не хватало для полного счастья...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous.

Борис Николаевич, ты?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Sorry, but I just cannot take those separatist clowns seriously. "Donetsk people's republic"? WTF? It's like I and a few of my friends got drunk and declared a people republic of our own. Totally weird and ridiculous.

I agree with ВарраВа. The irony is that it's exactly how modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was born. And entire "civilized world" was totally ok with it.

The area will descend into chaos. I consider this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

The area will descend into chaos. I consider this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

The only winner in this outcome would be USA. Russia's best interest is to bring stability to the region as far as possible. I doubt that Russia can do that alone though without cooperation with sane Ukrainian politics (is there left any?) and European Union.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Russia's best interest is to bring stability to the region as far as possible.

С этим трудно спорить. Хотя бы потому что нельзя это подтвердить или опровергнуть. Так что же делается для этого? Демонстративный отказ от диалога на официальном уровне? Заявления о возможном непризнании результатов выборов? Военные учения на границе? Угроза ввести войска? Отказ призывать ВСЕ стороны конфликта сложить оружие? Не сомневаюсь что для всего этого у вас есть объяснения и что эти объяснения звучат разумно. Просто спросите себя, это все приводит к установлению стабильности, или еще больше «раскачивает лодку»? Что для России «вреднее»: унитарная Украина, или маленькое Сомали под боком?

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

The area will descend into chaos. I consider this outcome quite real because that was the main goal of the powers which had started it all. A new politically unstable, dangerous region right under the borders of geopolitical enemies. The conflicts will go on, spreading hatred and poverty, making a good soil for various extremist organizations. Once again, the US will become the safest place in the world. By the price of safety in any other places.
Yet, I still hope we could solve that problem.

Scary if true. I think they need to have that referendum and it needs to be fair, legit and consider all options.

At the moment there is so much propaganda and misinformation that I doubt even the East Ukrainians themselves are sure what they want..

Originally Posted by Basil77

I agree with ВарраВа. The irony is that it's exactly how modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus was born. And entire "civilized world" was totally ok with it.

Well, I think China paid very close attention in 1991, and learned exactly what not to do if they want to keep their country together and avoid foreign influence that could split things up.

And sure, once the USA got a foot in, regional nationalism was their best weapon against Moscow, since it was already there and a bit supressed. Plus also tricking people that scrapping socialism was a sure way to get a condo, a designer wardrobe and a BMW in five years...

And as you know, whatever the USA likes, we in Western Europe eventually end up "liking", whether we like it on not (pun intended). If not, they have their bases here... So that was never even an option really.

I am not hostile against Russia, rather I like it, but I would never claim that Ukraine or Belarus ought to be part of Russia unless the people who lived there specifically asked for it...

If Ukrainians and Belarussians are turned off by things like oligarchs and corruption in modern Russia, or possibly their ancestors were treated badly in the Soviet Union or Imperial Russia, just because they were Ukrainians, then perhaps it makes sense that they turn their back to Russia.

it-Ogo is completely clear now, that he has a strong Ukrainian identity and the recent events seem to have triggered or re-inforced it. And there are a couple of people from Belarus popping in occassionally. They don't seem to hamper after Russian citizenship either.

Russia became the victim of the curse of having had an empire and lost it. So many countries had this experience and had to do some soul searching afterwards for decades or centuries even. Who are we now....?
There's Yugoslavia. Scandinavia essentially speaks one language and has a joint history. There are plenty of examples in Western Europe. Belgium. And that's just Europe.


And it's hard to feel THAT sorry for Russia - it's still the largest country... you've got enough

Originally Posted by Homsa

С этим трудно спорить. Хотя бы потому что нельзя это подтвердить или опровергнуть. Так что же делается для этого? Демонстративный отказ от диалога на официальном уровне? Заявления о возможном непризнании результатов выборов? Военные учения на границе? Угроза ввести войска? Отказ призывать ВСЕ стороны конфликта сложить оружие? Не сомневаюсь что для всего этого у вас есть объяснения и что эти объяснения звучат разумно. Просто спросите себя, это все приводит к установлению стабильности, или еще больше «раскачивает лодку»? Что для России «вреднее»: унитарная Украина, или маленькое Сомали под боком?

Маленькое унитарное Сомали под боком федеративной республики Новороссия.
Как вам такой прогноз?

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

Маленькое унитарное Сомали под боком федеративной республики Новороссия.
Как вам такой прогноз?

Ну зачем же мелочиться? Наносить историческую справедливость, так мегатоннами.

I voted for the choice that allows both the east and the west to win something. Why? Because this is a struggle between the US, the EU, and Russia to gain advantages in Ukraine. The Ukrainian people that are suffering for this arent even playing the game. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that they are real people with real families, dealing with a dangerous situation that only they understand.
It's very easy for me to sit at my desk and type posts about Ukraine when the most disturbing thing happening in my world is a small thunderstorm outside. Now that's something I can discuss because I'm here and I can see it and feel it. So, should I call what's happening in Donetsk a "freak show"? Or maybe I should just blame Russia for everything bad that happens in the world? That would be so easy for someone who isn't there and can only read about it in the news media. But they could be lying so how much do I really know?

People are saying that Russia has troops on the Ukrainian border to destabilize Ukraine. Really? If there was a revolution in Mexico, the US would have more troops, military vehicles, and warplanes on the Mexican border than it had in Iraq. And the US would leave them there till the revolution was over.
No country wants violence to spill over the borders into their country. That's something I know.

2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.
3. When Yanukovych was in power, the US and EU warned Kiev not to harm any of the protesters.
4. Hours after the US CIA Director visited Kiev, the new government sent the Ukraine military to attack the protesters in SE Ukraine.
5. After the US Vice President visited Kiev, those military actions against the protesters continued.
6. I haven't seen any news articles about Russian leaders visiting Kiev.
7. The Shell Oil Company and the Chevron Oil Company have strong interests in Ukraine... but only in eastern Ukraine. Monsanto has strong interests in west Ukraine.
8. A ton of money and resources left Russia in the 1990's. I have no reason to believe that the same thing won't happen in Ukraine.

It's a fantasy to believe that Ukraine will solve it's own issues. Russia has strong and legitimate economic and security concerns. And the US would gain a lot with it's new economic interests and the advancement of NATO.
With 2 of the most powerful nations on Earth fighting for advantages, I have very little reason to believe that Ukraine will have much to say about it's future.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I voted for the choice that allows both the east and the west to win something. Why? Because this is a struggle between the US, the EU, and Russia to gain advantages in Ukraine. The Ukrainian people that are suffering for this arent even playing the game. And I think what a lot of people don't understand is that they are real people with real families, dealing with a dangerous situation that only they understand.
It's very easy for me to sit at my desk and type posts about Ukraine when the most disturbing thing happening in my world is a small thunderstorm outside. Now that's something I can discuss because I'm here and I can see it and feel it. So, should I call what's happening in Donetsk a "freak show"? Or maybe I should just blame Russia for everything bad that happens in the world? That would be so easy for someone who isn't there and can only read about it in the news media. But they could be lying so how much do I really know?

People are saying that Russia has troops on the Ukrainian border to destabilize Ukraine. Really? If there was a revolution in Mexico, the US would have more troops, military vehicles, and warplanes on the Mexican border than it had in Iraq. And the US would leave them there till the revolution was over.
No country wants violence to spill over the borders into their country. That's something I know.

2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.
3. When Yanukovych was in power, the US and EU warned Kiev not to harm any of the protesters.
4. Hours after the US CIA Director visited Kiev, the new government sent the Ukraine military to attack the protesters in SE Ukraine.
5. After the US Vice President visited Kiev, those military actions against the protesters continued.
6. I haven't seen any news articles about Russian leaders visiting Kiev.
7. The Shell Oil Company and the Chevron Oil Company have strong interests in Ukraine... but only in eastern Ukraine. Monsanto has strong interests in west Ukraine.
8. A ton of money and resources left Russia in the 1990's. I have no reason to believe that the same thing won't happen in Ukraine.

It's a fantasy to believe that Ukraine will solve it's own issues. Russia has strong and legitimate economic and security concerns. And the US would gain a lot with it's new economic interests and the advancement of NATO.
With 2 of the most powerful nations on Earth fighting for advantages, I have very little reason to believe that Ukraine will have much to say about it's future.

You have good points but you omit one crucial aspect. Ukrainians have not objected much to the American/Western interference (for whatever reason). I have discussed the issue with Ukrainians and urged them to be skeptical, cynical and suspicious (to put it mildly) with respect to the interventionist policy of the West. The 'pro-Russia' side is already but their bias is based on being pro-Soviet or pro-neo-Soviet. There's no other reason.

However, other Ukrainians see Russia interfering as entirely negative and the historical relevance justifies the large percentage of the population which are extremely concerned about Russia's interference of the situation. Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled. Many Ukrainians don't want this problem. They feel they can deal with the other problem, the West's meddling.
It's up to Ukrainian citizens to realize that neither side gives them a great advantage but they must have the right and freedom to figure it out. It's obvious and apparent that Russia (read Putin and friends) don't want to give Ukrainians that opportunity. The Kremlin had full control over Ukraine. They had two Presidential candidates that were Kremlin-friendly and more or less did what they wanted. They're not happy not to have that influence. Putin et al. doesn't care if this conflict blows over into violence. It's all strategy and trying to control. The other thing few people mention is how extensive the Kremlin-based media is. They seem to be everywhere. It's difficult to get real answers. But, when one realizes that no one wants these hostile 'pro-Russia' personnel there who have committed violent and aggressive acts, you can notice who is really at fault here. Ukrainians can deal with their own problems and citizens. So, Russia should let them. I am against the interim government and think many Ukrainians need to realize what is going on but Russia/Putin should stay out of it.

'2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.'
It would be good but how can they remain neutral or discuss Federalism if Russian provocateurs and unmarked soldiers are attacking their citizens?

I wonder how Russia is going to have the massive 9 May celebration - that must be a huge thing for the RU military to organise, requiring a large part of the military to be involved (?) ----and keep the allegedly massive buildup of troops (50,000 according to media) at the Ukrainian border. Torn responsibilities? How many actual soldiers are in the Russian military?

Originally Posted by Hanna

I wonder how Russia is going to have the massive 9 May celebration - that must be a huge thing for the RU military to organise, requiring a large part of the military to be involved (?) ----and keep the allegedly massive buildup of troops (50,000 according to media) at the Ukrainian border. Torn responsibilities? How many actual soldiers are in the Russian military?

I think there's no need to worry. The preparations for the 9 May parade are usually started much earlier, so everything is already arranged and troops for it are already selected.
How many actual soldiers do we have? Who knows? Maybe zero? These days we can afford a superman too

On a serious note, I dunno. Yet I presume that there's no media to be honest on such a topic right now.
For those who are interested, this version of Superman actually comes from Ukraine (instead of Cansas). Soviet Ukraine

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You have good points but you omit one crucial aspect. Ukrainians have not objected much to the American/Western interference (for whatever reason). I have discussed the issue with Ukrainians and urged them to be skeptical, cynical and suspicious (to put it mildly) with respect to the interventionist policy of the West. The 'pro-Russia' side is already but their bias is based on being pro-Soviet or pro-neo-Soviet. There's no other reason.

However, other Ukrainians see Russia interfering as entirely negative and the historical relevance justifies the large percentage of the population which are extremely concerned about Russia's interference of the situation. Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled. Many Ukrainians don't want this problem. They feel they can deal with the other problem, the West's meddling.
It's up to Ukrainian citizens to realize that neither side gives them a great advantage but they must have the right and freedom to figure it out. It's obvious and apparent that Russia (read Putin and friends) don't want to give Ukrainians that opportunity. The Kremlin had full control over Ukraine. They had two Presidential candidates that were Kremlin-friendly and more or less did what they wanted. They're not happy not to have that influence. Putin et al. doesn't care if this conflict blows over into violence. It's all strategy and trying to control. The other thing few people mention is how extensive the Kremlin-based media is. They seem to be everywhere. It's difficult to get real answers. But, when one realizes that no one wants these hostile 'pro-Russia' personnel there who have committed violent and aggressive acts, you can notice who is really at fault here. Ukrainians can deal with their own problems and citizens. So, Russia should let them. I am against the interim government and think many Ukrainians need to realize what is going on but Russia/Putin should stay out of it.

'2. The US and the EU refuse to even discuss a Federalization of Ukraine. They also refuse to discuss Ukraine being a neutral country.'
It would be good but how can they remain neutral or discuss Federalism if Russian provocateurs and unmarked soldiers are attacking their citizens?

Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe.

You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.

2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues.

Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO.
3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
4. The second serious NATO aggression was in Ukraine. That's still undecided but it has a lot to do with certain factories and the east Russian border security.
5. The third serious NATO aggression is happening now in the Baltic states. The Ukraine crisis is being used to support that threat so it's very important for people to believe that protests are being caused by Russian citizens.
6. What this leads to is an excuse to attack the Russian economy with sanctions.

It's an amazing Western strategy but I doubt that it will work. President Putin made one of his most brilliant moves when he annexed Crimea.
Another brilliant move was when he signed the Eurasian agreement with Kazakhstan and Belarus yesterday.
He has also created stronger ties with China and doubled the export of gas to that region. And don't forget the new pipeline deal in Korea.

Having Crimea deletes a lot of the Western threat to SW Russia. And if the SE Ukrainian conflict is blocking serious talks on Federalization and neutrality, then you want me to believe that Russia is intentionally working against itself. I don't believe that.
Other brilliant moves are the creation of a Russian credit system and switching trade eastward. I've never been more impressed with Russia than I am right now.
But the uncertainty in Ukraine and the build-up of NATO troops in the Baltic states are a serious threat to Russia's ability to defend itself. It's turning NATO's alleged self-defense role into a military act of aggression.

But what's really scary is what happens next. The NATO aggression will force Russia to re-start the Arms Race. Can you guess what happens next?
14 minute response time for a nuclear launch detection. Just one misinterpreted signal and welcome to WW3. And there's no hotline setup between Russia and Washington DC to help make a decision.
That's a worst case scenario but anything's possible. And all the pressure on Russia is making it even more likely.
As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!

Какой-никакой а источник информации
Список стран по численности действующих войск — Википедия

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Какой-никакой а источник информации
Список стран по численности действующих войск — Википедия

Baltic States have practically nothing. Yet they claim to be living in fear of Russia!
If they are so scared of that, why don't they all get large armies and bring in military service?

Belarus on the other hand seems to have a really large military. Who/what are they afraid of..?

For Scandinavia, actions speak louder than words. After conscription was more or less dropped, the military is tiny. Such a contraction with the Cold War when nothing was ever said about what the "threat" was and Russia was discussed in media in neutral terms.
Today in media there are constant negative stories about Russia and its military might etc. Yet every Nordic country wants to do business in Russia etc. And the military is tiny, and getting smaller. National neighbour schizophrenia.

The reason the UK's army is small is because it consists of professionals - but they are good!
The UK goes for quality, not quantity. No homesick 18-year-olds who'd rather be home with mummy, but professionals who chose that career.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe.

You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.

2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues.

Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO.
3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
4. The second serious NATO aggression was in Ukraine. That's still undecided but it has a lot to do with certain factories and the east Russian border security.
5. The third serious NATO aggression is happening now in the Baltic states. The Ukraine crisis is being used to support that threat so it's very important for people to believe that protests are being caused by Russian citizens.
6. What this leads to is an excuse to attack the Russian economy with sanctions.

It's an amazing Western strategy but I doubt that it will work. President Putin made one of his most brilliant moves when he annexed Crimea.
Another brilliant move was when he signed the Eurasian agreement with Kazakhstan and Belarus yesterday.
He has also created stronger ties with China and doubled the export of gas to that region. And don't forget the new pipeline deal in Korea.

Having Crimea deletes a lot of the Western threat to SW Russia. And if the SE Ukrainian conflict is blocking serious talks on Federalization and neutrality, then you want me to believe that Russia is intentionally working against itself. I don't believe that.
Other brilliant moves are the creation of a Russian credit system and switching trade eastward. I've never been more impressed with Russia than I am right now.
But the uncertainty in Ukraine and the build-up of NATO troops in the Baltic states are a serious threat to Russia's ability to defend itself. It's turning NATO's alleged self-defense role into a military act of aggression.

But what's really scary is what happens next. The NATO aggression will force Russia to re-start the Arms Race. Can you guess what happens next?
14 minute response time for a nuclear launch detection. Just one misinterpreted signal and welcome to WW3. And there's no hotline setup between Russia and Washington DC to help make a decision.
That's a worst case scenario but anything's possible. And all the pressure on Russia is making it even more likely.
As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!

I liked your comment as usual, but we mustn't forget that it-ogo, the "random sample" person in Eastern Ukraine is really p-d off with Russia at the moment, says the RU military is there locally and strongly against any intervention by Russia.

I totally missed the news on the Eurasian trading zone. Well good for them. Everybody needs to be in a union these days...

As for your comment on Arms Race. Yes, that is the big fear isn't it? I think the ludicrous and totally unnecessary expense of an arms race was partly responsible for the economical problems of the USSR. While they were trying to provide for the population, in terms of basics etc, they felt pressured to continue investing in insanely expensive weaponry to enable them to do things that would have killed off the entire planet. I think the USA is also still suffering from the madness of the arms race - in terms of foreign debt and the arms lobby and multinational corporations. Apparently arms is the US biggest domestic production for export. Typical..

It's so perverse there are not even words for it. While people are starving or suffering, global warming escalating and horrible diseases, some countries spend these ridiculous sums on dreaming up and building increasingly sophisticated ways of killing each other.

I just hope nobody is crazy enough to kick off that madness again. And this time the US would not be the winner. China and maybe Russia or India would be.

The US seems to have started a trend with the drones now. Lots of countries in Asia and Europe are getting them. I actually saw one here in the UK last year, when I was on holiday in Wales. Incredibly creepy, we didn't even spot it until it was really close, and then you could hear a creepy noise from it.
Welcome to 1984.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I liked your comment as usual, but we mustn't forget that it-ogo, the "random sample" person in Eastern Ukraine is really p-d off with Russia at the moment, says the RU military is there locally and strongly against any intervention by Russia.

I totally missed the news on the Eurasian trading zone. Well good for them. Everybody needs to be in a union these days...

As for your comment on Arms Race. Yes, that is the big fear isn't it? I think the ludicrous and totally unnecessary expense of an arms race was partly responsible for the economical problems of the USSR. While they were trying to provide for the population, in terms of basics etc, they felt pressured to continue investing in insanely expensive weaponry to enable them to do things that would have killed off the entire planet. I think the USA is also still suffering from the madness of the arms race - in terms of foreign debt and the arms lobby and multinational corporations. Apparently arms is the US biggest domestic production for export. Typical..

It's so perverse there are not even words for it. While people are starving or suffering, global warming escalating and horrible diseases, some countries spend these ridiculous sums on dreaming up and building increasingly sophisticated ways of killing each other.

I just hope nobody is crazy enough to kick off that madness again. And this time the US would not be the winner. China and maybe Russia or India would be.

The US seems to have started a trend with the drones now. Lots of countries in Asia and Europe are getting them. I actually saw one here in the UK last year, when I was on holiday in Wales. Incredibly creepy, we didn't even spot it until it was really close, and then you could hear a creepy noise from it.
Welcome to 1984.

it-ogo has every right to have serious issues with Russia right now since it-ogo has to live with and deal with what's happening there. And yeah, it would be a lot better if Ukraine could deal with it's own problems, without any intervention. But I don't see that going down so I think it's very important to understand why these things are happening.
I've been trying very hard to stay objective. I haven't seen any solid proof that there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine. But if I do see solid proof then I will believe it. And it is a possibility that wouldn't surprise me.

Anyway, I spent about 4 hours last weekend listening to a video about NATO and the dangers of eastward expansion. It included what I learned about the conflict in Georgia and the limitations of NATO in the Baltic states.
It's just insane that the EU would push for NATO alignment in it's contract with Ukraine. And the part about having to choose sides. If the EU had left those things out of the agreement, the Ukrainian crisis probably never woulda gone this far.

And you're right. I read about the Arms Race and Perimeter is still in-place. I think the US has a similar system too. It's just scary. And if a nuclear exchange ever happens, I really don't think there will be any winners.
Btw, did you know that even North Korea is making drones now? Nothing serious yet but who knows what that can lead to.
North Korea denies drones were sent to South | Air Force Times | airforcetimes.com

Btw, I think we already passed 1984. I think we're living in the sequel.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe.

You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.

2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues.

Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO.
3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
4. The second serious NATO aggression was in Ukraine. That's still undecided but it has a lot to do with certain factories and the east Russian border security.
5. The third serious NATO aggression is happening now in the Baltic states. The Ukraine crisis is being used to support that threat so it's very important for people to believe that protests are being caused by Russian citizens.
6. What this leads to is an excuse to attack the Russian economy with sanctions.

It's an amazing Western strategy but I doubt that it will work. President Putin made one of his most brilliant moves when he annexed Crimea.
Another brilliant move was when he signed the Eurasian agreement with Kazakhstan and Belarus yesterday.
He has also created stronger ties with China and doubled the export of gas to that region. And don't forget the new pipeline deal in Korea.

Having Crimea deletes a lot of the Western threat to SW Russia. And if the SE Ukrainian conflict is blocking serious talks on Federalization and neutrality, then you want me to believe that Russia is intentionally working against itself. I don't believe that.
Other brilliant moves are the creation of a Russian credit system and switching trade eastward. I've never been more impressed with Russia than I am right now.
But the uncertainty in Ukraine and the build-up of NATO troops in the Baltic states are a serious threat to Russia's ability to defend itself. It's turning NATO's alleged self-defense role into a military act of aggression.

But what's really scary is what happens next. The NATO aggression will force Russia to re-start the Arms Race. Can you guess what happens next?
14 minute response time for a nuclear launch detection. Just one misinterpreted signal and welcome to WW3. And there's no hotline setup between Russia and Washington DC to help make a decision.
That's a worst case scenario but anything's possible. And all the pressure on Russia is making it even more likely.
As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!

(Вытерто. Л.) Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government? That is quite a narrow viewpoint.

Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else. I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights. Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs. There is no justification.

The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there. It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction. Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian. I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.

'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
LOL! You obviously talk to no Russians.

What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this? I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here). It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible. Quite the tactic (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored. Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized. There's always the possibility of a hostile response.

Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin. Not sure why you throw out that example. Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.

You obviously have a lot to learn about the country. Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?