Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Awesome response from it-ogo. Now I understand exactly where he's coming from, and I respect this position. I can definitely see that it makes sense.

Yes Ukrainians are very nice people. I was so surprised. Of all European nations I have visited, that's among the best I have ever been treated by locals, and it was genuine, not for any gain. It was too long ago since I visited Russia, and very different times, so I can't compare with Russia.

I feel like a detached spectator here, since it genuinely doesn't matter to me what happens, and since I can understand both perspectives.

But it feels unethical somehow, to be very interested in something which has already cost a lot of people their lives, and yet not take a strong position either way.

Originally Posted by diogen_

Putin knows what to do quite well. He patiently expects for the looming failure of the currently lackadaisical “anti-terror operation” and successive toppling of the “interim government” by angry mobs in Kiev. Then,the newly fledged “right sector” junta will turn out to be responsible for real genocide in some region of Ukraine or other, and he will be able to liberate Novorussia from fascism without any risk of further sanctions and starting off WW3.

Well, if entering Ukraine is really his "secret" objective, then it's a game of poker.
He cannot know for sure what cards will be dealt, or how his opponent will play. He can have a strategy but only God, not Putin, knows how this will end.... ! He has a dilemma at his hands. This is partly a "Bay of Pigs" type moment in Russian political history.

I imagine they have a few scenarios planned out. At least one includes entering Ukraine, in different ways. Plus another plan for how to look after Russia's interests without entering Ukraine...

As for what Russia can lose. Nothing, I think.
The US can never fight Russia in Ukraine, and it seems totally unlikely that Ukraine can put up any resistanse against Russia on its own. Or would even bother much trying. Sanctions against Russia that would actually matter are not a serious option for Europe in 2014. So it's totally down to Putin and the other leaders in RU how they are going to handle this.

I can think of one big obstacle: If the population in Russia turns against Putin because of anything he does in Ukraine. But it does not seem likely. Basil77 said it's the opposite; people are wondering why Putin doesn't move.

On the other hand I don't think Russia (Putin) wants all or parts of Ukraine just to make the country bigger or some kind of safety buffer. This is not the 19th century... There are other ways to control a country than moving borders.

Possibly he wants it purely to stop it from becoming a NATO country or sphere of influence.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Зачем раздувать? Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

Верное замечание. Разместил видео для контраста, чтобы увидели, что есть и другая позиция, т.к. почти все без исключения западные СМИ пестрят абсолютно противоположными слоганами, обвинениями и пропагандистскими речевками, где, согласно никогда не теряющему своей популярности тренду, во всем и всегда виновата РФ (СССР, Российская Империя). И по поводу фашиствующих элементов - да, они есть в любой стране. Но тот расцвет и поддержку мирового сообщества, которые эти элементы получили на Украине, сейчас сложно найти где бы то ни было. На ум приходят только массовые выступления ККК в США и становление Германии 30-х гг. Согласитесь, аналогии не самые светлые.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Зачем раздувать? Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

Разница в том, что в мерзостном геополитическом анклаве, который сегодня называются "государство украина," эти элементы являются основой политики действующих властей и к тому же поддерживаются теми лицемерными тварями, которые находятся у власти в западных странах.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Зачем раздувать? Фашиствующие элементы только исключительно в Украине можно найти?

Фашиствующие элементы можно найти где угодно.
А вот реальных фашистов сегодня можно найти только на Украине.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...ref=world&_r=0

I live in Russia. Here's my opinion. Putin pursues his object - geopolitical. It's very important for him, and oh yeah, for all Russians! It's very important whose rockets will be placed there - Russian or NATO's... Of course he doesn't care about Ukraine's people destiny, and no matter what he says! But what about new Ukraine's authorities? These are very aggressive people too. They are ready for any bloodshed. Their ideas are really looking like fascism! They will never forgive East!..
And now, just imagine: There are simple people are between the devil and the deep sea! I mean Russians and Ukrains... It's just politics and nothing else! Every educated person must understand it!

I agree that the "Ukraine Crisis Uncensored" video focuses on only one side. But it's the one side that's ignored by most Western media. If outsiders never see something then it's easy to forget it exists.
And why should Americans or Europeans forget it exists if it's part of what their countries are financing and supporting.
Well, since the interim government has declared war against it's own people and is taking political prisoners (I believe that's called political oppression & authoritarianism), I was very happy to learn that pro-Russian Ukrainians rescued 67 of them from the Ukrainian jail.

Earlier, hundreds of pro-Russian activists shouting, "Odessa is a Russian city, one for all and all for one," attacked the police headquarters, forcing open its gate and breaking windows as they called for the release of their detained comrades. In a tense scene filled with arguments but with no shots fired, the separatists took down the Ukrainian flag and convinced the officers to release the detainees, according to a CNN team on the ground.

The crowd cheered as the detainees left the police compound, and many were embraced by friends and relatives.

Ukraine releases protesters; PM visits Odessa - CNN.com

All English speaking people and Europeans reading this; please tell your friends to watch RT to get the other perspective on this. Streaming live, ad free hi-res online.
Ukraine is a country in Europe, we cannot allow ourselves to be fooled on this. You need both perspectives.

[And @Russians - perhaps take a peek to see what the BBC or Euronews has to say on this. Not all of it is lies... Euronews streams live and has an audiostream in Russian. BBC World should be available on cable (?)]

If your friends say RT is "Russian propaganda" just ask them if they are so narrow minded that they only want to hear one side of the story, or if their views are so loosely held that they can't handle a bit of propaganda....

The propaganda onslaught that you are getting in Western media is so brutal that the only thing that will shake it, is to get the other side of the story, forcefully, and that's what RT does. We can worry about whether it's propaganda or not later. You won't become a Putin zombie just because you watch 30 minutes of RT. I promise.

How many times are we going to allow ourselves to be fooled about important conflicts by CNN, BBC etc? Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more...
Time to make an active choice about what you information you allow yourself to be subjected to and what you believe. Show CNN & co what you think about their one sided propaganda by changing channel!

Originally Posted by EfreytoR_S

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKuDzXAgdf4

To watch this, you have to sign in, verify your age and then I got "not available".
Censorship much, youtube?

Originally Posted by Hanna

All English speaking people and Europeans reading this; please tell your friends to watch RT to get the other perspective on this. Streaming live, ad free hi-res online.
Ukraine is a country in Europe, we cannot allow ourselves to be fooled on this. You need both perspectives.

[And @Russians - perhaps take a peek to see what the BBC or Euronews has to say on this. Not all of it is lies... Euronews streams live and has an audiostream in Russian. BBC World should be available on cable (?)]

If your friends say RT is "Russian propaganda" just ask them if they are so narrow minded that they only want to hear one side of the story, or if their views are so loosely held that they can't handle a bit of propaganda....

The propaganda onslaught that you are getting in Western media is so brutal that the only thing that will shake it, is to get the other side of the story, forcefully, and that's what RT does. We can worry about whether it's propaganda or not later. You won't become a Putin zombie just because you watch 30 minutes of RT. I promise.

How many times are we going to allow ourselves to be fooled about important conflicts by CNN, BBC etc? Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and many more...
Time to make an active choice about what you information you allow yourself to be subjected to and what you believe. Show CNN & co what you think about their one sided propaganda by changing channel!

To watch this, you have to sign in, verify your age and then I got "not available".
Censorship much, youtube?

The best side to watch is every side. And yean, RT has really good coverage for Ukraine.
About that video: It's age restricted. A lot of the Ukraine videos are. You have to get adult permissions to watch them.

Well this one is not censored so far.
The complete call where Victoria Nuland discusses who should sit in the UA interim government. The exact people she wants are in, and Klitschko is out, which is also what she's saying.

Video subbed in Russian, but I am not sure the arrogance of their tone comes across in the translation. It's absolutely unbelievable to discuss leaders of a large European country as if they were children or imbecills, and it certainly shows who is pulling the strings behind the scene in the coup d'etat (sorry it-ogo, but this is irrefutable proof that there is SERIOUS meddling going on).



Then on the other hand, this also shows *somebody* has a very effective monitoring of phone calls set up. And this time it probably wasn't the NSA.... Excellent quality. I wonder how many thousand calls they had to listen to to get that one.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I agree that the "Ukraine Crisis Uncensored" video focuses on only one side. But it's the one side that's ignored by most Western media. If outsiders never see something then it's easy to forget it exists.
And why should Americans or Europeans forget it exists if it's part of what their countries are financing and supporting.
Well, since the interim government has declared war against it's own people and is taking political prisoners (I believe that's called political oppression & authoritarianism), I was very happy to learn that pro-Russian Ukrainians rescued 67 of them from the Ukrainian jail.


Ukraine releases protesters; PM visits Odessa - CNN.com

That article, however, doesn't shed light on what those cell guys really did on Friday. It says something about their participance in violent clashes though. I can't say for sure if that has actually been proved, but are you completely sure it hasn't? It's disgusting if any of those violent felons are among those "released" ones.

Besides, do you think assaulting a police department with the purpose of helping the prisoners inside escape is a good idea anywhere? Do you realize what that would get you if you attempted to do that in the U.S. ? Those people used the complete chaos in the city as their cover, and what they did actually showed they aren't really willing to respect the law. And if that's the case, maybe their will shouldn't be respected either?

Originally Posted by Basil77

Eric, if you want to understand, why majority of Russians are justifying Crimea annexation and, after yesterday, invasion into continental Ukraine, you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke and when USA and EU are messing with Ukraine they are messing with our internal affairs. Killed pro-Russian Ukrainians are considered as our compatriots and opposide side is considered as mad neo-nazi USA puppets.
And don't put analogy with Baltic states, Finland, Poland, Middle-Asian stans (except Kazakhstan) and Caucasus, please. Baltics were always considered as "special snowflakes" even in Soviet Union. Despite some disputable cities, like Narva, no one here consider, say, Estonians our compatriots. But most questions with Baltic countries were succesfully solved in the last years, borders officially marked, etc. Ukraine is completley different case.

I get it now. So, it's a psychological and mental issue. " you should bear in mind that these people, including me, think that border that appeared in 1991 between Russia and Ukraine is a joke." So, it was okay when Yanukovych was in power and that when Tymoshenko stole money and made sure that Putin had a cushy deal - that was okay because, in essence, Ukraine was somewhat of a de facto Kremlin government? Right? Thus, corruption, killing Ukrainian citizens that don't worship the Kremlin is justified to maintain the status quo and make sure that Ukraine steps in line of what the Kremlin wants. That makes sense.

deleted. L.

Deleted. L.Зачем такие ужасы сюда тащить?