Thread: Future of Eastern Ukraine? / Будущее Восточной Украины?

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Well, the eastern Ukrainians wouldn't object to Russian intervention. But that's cool because now Ukraine has a new government that will always represent the Western Ukrainians. If the eastern Ukrainians want representation they can get it from Moscow. They obviously won't find it in the new Ukrainian government.
Btw, did you read the news in Komsomolskaya Pravda today? Oleg Tsarev said that Russian-speaking Ukrainians will have no voice in the new government, even if they win the Presidency. I don't know that it's true but it wouldn't be hard to believe.

You said "Even Russia's own citizens are neglected and under threat in Russia. Their rights are trampled."
Is that why Abby Martin is allowed to speak against Putin's policies on Russia Today? And that's not the only example I've seen, btw. As for "neglected and under threat", that sounds a lot like the US right now. Did you see the peaceful Occupy protesters being pepper sprayed, beaten, and arrested in the US? It was all over the news. Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat. I would be more concerned about being neglected, being under threat, and having my rights trampled in the US. That's been all over the Western media too.

2. The unmarked eastern Ukrainian militia is aggressive because Kiev refuses to discuss those issues.

Provocateurs? Okay. Let's look at the whole picture.
1. Kiev signs an EU aggreement that forces Ukraine to choose sides. Putin was willing to let Ukraine get help from both sides.
2. Title 7 and Title 9 in that document force Ukraine to accept NATO.
3. The first serious NATO aggression was in Georgia. That threat was cancelled by the Georgia invasion.
4. The second serious NATO aggression was in Ukraine. That's still undecided but it has a lot to do with certain factories and the east Russian border security.
5. The third serious NATO aggression is happening now in the Baltic states. The Ukraine crisis is being used to support that threat so it's very important for people to believe that protests are being caused by Russian citizens.
6. What this leads to is an excuse to attack the Russian economy with sanctions.

It's an amazing Western strategy but I doubt that it will work. President Putin made one of his most brilliant moves when he annexed Crimea.
Another brilliant move was when he signed the Eurasian agreement with Kazakhstan and Belarus yesterday.
He has also created stronger ties with China and doubled the export of gas to that region. And don't forget the new pipeline deal in Korea.

Having Crimea deletes a lot of the Western threat to SW Russia. And if the SE Ukrainian conflict is blocking serious talks on Federalization and neutrality, then you want me to believe that Russia is intentionally working against itself. I don't believe that.
Other brilliant moves are the creation of a Russian credit system and switching trade eastward. I've never been more impressed with Russia than I am right now.
But the uncertainty in Ukraine and the build-up of NATO troops in the Baltic states are a serious threat to Russia's ability to defend itself. It's turning NATO's alleged self-defense role into a military act of aggression.

But what's really scary is what happens next. The NATO aggression will force Russia to re-start the Arms Race. Can you guess what happens next?
14 minute response time for a nuclear launch detection. Just one misinterpreted signal and welcome to WW3. And there's no hotline setup between Russia and Washington DC to help make a decision.
That's a worst case scenario but anything's possible. And all the pressure on Russia is making it even more likely.
As for me, I will NOT accept Cold War and I will NOT accept war with Russia. So just back off, NATO!

(Вытерто. Л.) Are you trying to tell me that you can't be a sovereigntist or support sovereignty and be against the interim government? That is quite a narrow viewpoint.

Like it or not, Ukrainians have the right to invite NATO or anyone else. I'm against their action or policy and against the interim government but I am trying to look at it with neutral eyes and supporting their rights. Russia has no right to interfere or to send provocateurs. There is no justification.

The media is full of lies so I don't believe half the stuff in there. It's better to ask Ukrainians or at least obtain their reaction. Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian. I think most of it is media spin and have no reason to doubt it now.

'Tbh, after everything I've heard and read about Russia, I would live there in a heartbeat.'
LOL! You obviously talk to no Russians.

What does rights in the U.S. have to do with this? I agree that their rights are dwindling (I have already pronounced such a view here before but that topic is redundant here). It seems you want to deflect criticism of the Kremlin in any way possible. Quite the tactic (Вытерто. Л.). You also miss the fact that most pro-Putin views are freely expressed but those against are routinely monitored. Most are relatively silent at least from public organization or are heavily scrutinized. There's always the possibility of a hostile response.

Btw, Russia Today is carefully scripted, monitored and controlled by the Kremlin. Not sure why you throw out that example. Russia has a lot of 'controlled Opposition types' in Government and probably in media, also.

You obviously have a lot to learn about the country. Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You obviously have a lot to learn about the country. Maybe talk to some other Russians other than the 'pro-Putin' types for some objectivity?

To be honest, it has become quite boring that some people judge your statements just by "pro-Putin" or not "pro-Putin" criteria.
We are nation made of people just like everyone else, not a mystical manifestation of a single person's will. And if the latter actually goes along with the will of people, it's just a coincidence (not always a clear one and not always a bad one). Nobody mentions "pro-Obama" Americans or "pro-Yarosh" (or "pro-Timoshenko") Ukrainians, why suddenly there's "pro-Putin"?

Originally Posted by Lampada

НародЫ, не накаляйте форумную атмосферу.

This phrase makes my day Sounds quite cool, really.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

... Nobody mentions "pro-Obama" Americans ...

А чё, есть про-Обама.
http://goldenageofgaia.com/into-the-golden-age-of-gaia/pro-obama/

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Russian speaking Ukrainians have lived okay for years and most of the population speak Russian.

Incidentally, today at my work a matter of Russian as a second state language came up. The idea was met with indignation in no uncertain terms. I was surprised. All people were Russian-speaking, as it's a city in what is called "Central Ukraine", in the East of it, not that far from the front line. Normally, I would expect apathetic responses like "what for?" or "who cares?" but here we are.

Originally Posted by E-learner

Incidentally, today at my work a matter of Russian as a second state language came up. The idea was met with indignation in no uncertain terms. I was surprised. All people were Russian-speaking, as it's a city in what is called "Central Ukraine", in the East of it, not that far from the front line. Normally, I would expect apathetic responses like "what for?" or "who cares?" but here we are.

So you are in Central Ukraine, your colleagues are Russian speaking but they get angry at the thought of having Russian as a second state language?
That seems totally bizarre. Why would they not want their everyday language as a state language? I have never heard of such a thing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

So you are in Central Ukraine, your colleagues are Russian speaking but they get angry at the thought of having Russian as a second state language?
That seems totally bizarre. Why would they not want their everyday language as a state language? I have never heard of such a thing.

First, for those people Russian as a state language, in practical terms, would change nothing. In verbal communication it's complete Russian-Ukrainian pluralism with big prevalence of Russian anyway. Official forms and things? Frankly speaking, I can't tell you in which language was the form I filled two weeks ago. Locals are good enough with Ukrainian to not take notice of such things. State language as a matter of principle, not to be "people of second sort"? It doesn't make sense. Nobody feels like a second sort person here because of being a Russian speaker. Maybe because they are Ukrainians and live in Ukraine and it is quite enough for them.

Second, about them being angry, it's an emotional anti-Russian thing because of the war. They see on Russian TV (Lavrov etc.) that one of the reasons their country is being attacked is that the aggressor wants to make it's language their state language. Isn't that infuriating, on principle?