Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Originally Posted by Seraph

The IMF/World Bank have a track record. 40 years of austerity programs. They all end the same way. And now the EU is playing the same game.

I think that might very well be true. Meanwhile most people in the Baltic States are so busy hating Russia, complaining about the USSR times and idolizing capitalism in all its forms and shapes... that they don't even notice that they are being (essentially) cheated and robbed. And the EU is turning a blind eye to the treatment of the Russian speakers, which would create a huge outrage if it happened to any other group, anywhere else in the EU.
That's my take on it, and I hope for their sake that I am wrong. I would like to see this area prosperous and not indebted and sold off to foreign interests.

From Wikipedia, about the charming city of Liepaja, which is unfortunately struggling with unemployment:

Economy
In the second half of 20th century under Soviet rule Liepāja became an industrial city and a large number of high technology plants were founded, including:



[list of ~20 factories]

After collapse of USSR's centrally planned economy, only a small number of these plants continue to operate.


[some info about the port in Liepaja]

After joining European Union in 2004, most Liepāja companies was faced with strict European rules and terse competition and was forced to stop production or to sell enterprises to European companies. In 2007 were closed Liepājas cukurfabrika and Liepājas sērkociņi; Līvu alus, Liepājas maiznieks and Lauma has been sold to European investors.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Well, I wouldn't say, of course, it's totally impossible to find incomes less than $30 an hour among the Americans, but I think it's quite rare. You're talking about terrible things, could you at least specify the kind of job those people have? Where the salaries are so incredibly small that people can't even pay for their bills...

The minimum wage is not a statistical average, it’s a legal limit set by the federal government to ensure that workers (presumably citizens and legal residents) don’t get paid less than that, and $7.50 is an accurate figure in 2011.

Throughout my college years I worked as a cashier on weekends in a large supermarket chain. I started at $7 per hour in 1997 and after several raises and promotions, was making $10 per hour in 2001, the year I graduated. A friend of mine was making about $100 a day waiting tables in a restaurant. Back then $35,000 is considered a good starting annual salary for a college graduate with a bachelor degree in accounting. This was GROSS income, of course. About 25% of it went to federal, state and social security tax, so the take-home pay was about $14 an hour.

Here’s a list of minimum wage in 2011 by state:

List of U.S. minimum wages - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And a list by occupation:

Minimum wage in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you can see, things have not improved much from 10 years ago for the low-wage earners, except that many of them had to work less hours during the recession. I honestly don’t know how they can pay their bills (or not). I can do some research but I’m afraid to. Their after-tax income might be a little higher than their gross income because of all the tax credits they can claim. But still, the monthly rent (not including utility, etc) for a small apartment in Atlanta costs at least $700; gasoline is at $4 a gallon now; a loaf of bread with decent amount of nutrient costs $3…

After collapse of USSR's centrally planned economy, only a small number of these plants continue to operate.

That's because USSR's production cannot compete with real world.
Even cheapest imported things (like plastic bags and chewing gum ) were almost idolized in Soviet times when people got hands on them.
When Iron curtain fell and imports from west were allowed - suddenly people realized how shitty USSR production was.
And most of factories in Latvia got raw materials from the rest of USSR - after collapse it was not possible/too expensive.
That's why most of USSR time manufacturing died out.

And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus?

People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

Originally Posted by nulle

And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus? People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

No, I wouldn't particularly want to live there... it depends completely on the circumstances.. It's not a bad place though. If someone was to offer me a well paid job there, I might consider it, for a short period. But that's not likely to happen.

But I think that if a person is on a very low salary, then they might be better off in Belarus than in Latvia. I am not certain though, but things are so cheap in Belarus. In Latvia, the prices are more like in the rest of the EU. Rents etc are very low in Belarus too. So if you had.... say 800 USD per month.... You'd get a much better standard of living for that in Belarus, than in Latvia.

In Belarus I met quite a lot of people who said that they knew somebody or had a relative who was living in Sweden. I was really surprised to hear that. I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden (I have been living abroad though). It seems Sweden is one of the top places that Belarussians would like to emigrate to. One Belarussian woman who worked at the Swedish embassy was running a Swedish course (such a small language, surprising anyone wants to learn it!). She had almost 50 people in her course! Sadly (for Belarus) it's the smartest and most hard working people who leave. I suspect it might be the same in Latvia.

My main point about Belarus is that the situation there is completely misrepresented in Western European media. Although it has some problems, it's not half as bad as you'd think after reading an average European paper.

I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden

Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

Originally Posted by nulle

Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

Ты уверен, что это был местный?

Originally Posted by nulle

Possibly because they learn Swedish and do not ask Belarussian to be official language, like some Russians here in Latvia.
It's amazing actually - one day someone asked me directions in Russian - how to get to the bus - I answered him in Latvian - he did not understand ANYTHING.
How the hell you can live in a country and do not know local language that is spoken by majority?

He might have been Russian or Belarussian, did you think of that? Someone told me that it's a real problem for tourists from Russian speaking countries.The Latvians simply respond in Latvian and obviously they don't understand a word.
He could have asked you first if you spoke Russian.
On the other hand, you could have tried in Russian or simply said "I don't speak it"

In Finland there is a group of Swedish speakers who can't really speak Finnish, because they work with other Swedish speakers and socialise with others too. They learn it in school, but like Latvian it's a hard language and since they can get by in Swedish they don't really make the effort. The Finnish people don't really care about this though. It's much more of a problem for the person who can't speak Finnish, than it is for them - they can simply say - "sorry" and walk away. It happens to me occassionally when I go there.

I agree it's surprising but I think your views on this are completely tangled up with your feelings about the past, about the USSR etc. Personally I think it's really cool that Latvians are bilingual. And it's not like anyone is forcing you to speak Russian against your will. All I am saying is that the state should be bilingual because of the composition of its citizens. Not that anyone should be forced to speak Russian who doesn't want to.

Originally Posted by Hanna

No, I wouldn't particularly want to live there... it depends completely on the circumstances.. It's not a bad place though. If someone was to offer me a well paid job there, I might consider it, for a short period. But that's not likely to happen.

But I think that if a person is on a very low salary, then they might be better off in Belarus than in Latvia. I am not certain though, but things are so cheap in Belarus. In Latvia, the prices are more like in the rest of the EU. Rents etc are very low in Belarus too. So if you had.... say 800 USD per month.... You'd get a much better standard of living for that in Belarus, than in Latvia.

In Belarus I met quite a lot of people who said that they knew somebody or had a relative who was living in Sweden. I was really surprised to hear that. I have never met a Belarussian in Sweden (I have been living abroad though). It seems Sweden is one of the top places that Belarussians would like to emigrate to. One Belarussian woman who worked at the Swedish embassy was running a Swedish course (such a small language, surprising anyone wants to learn it!). She had almost 50 people in her course! Sadly (for Belarus) it's the smartest and most hard working people who leave. I suspect it might be the same in Latvia.

My main point about Belarus is that the situation there is completely misrepresented in Western European media. Although it has some problems, it's not half as bad as you'd think after reading an average European paper.

Do some search on what I wrote in the reply to one of Basil's posts. Over 1500 detained over the last 1.5 months for clapping their hands. Learn how those arrests were done, how some civilians were beaten during them, etc. If it's not enough for you to think something is going wrong there (that is, if you think it's ok), then I just wonder what principles you were taught in your childhood. Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s...

Then, your another mistake is you don't take into account that salaries of $800 a month are considered top level incomes there rather than "low salaries".

Originally Posted by Hanna

Latvian it's a hard language

Maybe they would like to study Chinese if Latvian seems hard to them

Ты уверен, что это был местный?

Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.
And I have NEVER met a russian that asks: "Ты понимаеш по русски?".

but like Latvian it's a hard language and since they can get by in Swedish they don't really make the effort.

Latvian is easier than Russian :P

Originally Posted by nulle

Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.

Really? So how good is your Russian? Should be on par with your English then? I mean, in that case you hear people speak Russian in real life, every day.
And in that case you have to have lots of Russian friends? Doesn't that make you feel more sympathetic towards their situation?

Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

Originally Posted by nulle

Latvian is easier than Russian :P

Definitelly, I guess it would be just a fun to study Latvian, so they really can't complain that it's difficult

Originally Posted by Hanna

Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

I think that he is really in the mark don't you like it?

Originally Posted by nulle

Im prettty sure - 70% of population in my district are non-Latvians.
And I have NEVER met a russian that asks: "Ты понимаеш по русски?".

Latvian is easier than Russian :P

Конечно, местный бы не сделал такую большую ошибку, заговорив по-русски. Значит, даже если спрашивающий дорогу приезжий/не местный, ему никто не поможет, если он не знает латвийского? Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Конечно, местный бы не сделал такую большую ошибку, заговорив по-русски. Значит, даже если спрашивающий дорогу приезжий/не местный, ему никто не поможет, если он не знает латвийского? Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

I think your imagination is taking you too far from what you actually read.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Eric, you are off the mark as usual.

Thanks, that's what really clarifies the thing. Now I totally get your point.

PS. During one of those attacks on civilians walking on the street, the deputy head of the Swedish embassy, David Emtestam, was almost detained.

Deputy head of Swedish Embassy detained in Minsk - Euroradio

But yeah, what could be more off the mark than mentioning such facts, right? How can one ever be dissatisfied with that socialist paradise and their wise authorities? Ehhh..

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I think your imagination is taking you too far from what you actually read.

I wish that this somewhat unfair treatment of innocent people were a figment of my imagination.

Originally Posted by nulle

That's because USSR's production cannot compete with real world.
Even cheapest imported things (like plastic bags and chewing gum ) were almost idolized in Soviet times when people got hands on them.
When Iron curtain fell and imports from west were allowed - suddenly people realized how shitty USSR production was.
And most of factories in Latvia got raw materials from the rest of USSR - after collapse it was not possible/too expensive.
That's why most of USSR time manufacturing died out.

And Hanna - would you like to move to Belarus?

People in Latvia do not - if they emigrate - they go to west.

It has nothing to do with the past, the USSR. It has to do with right now.

Every ongoing productive economy requires money to be spent on maintenance, repairs, replacements, upgrades, etc. Austerity programs always take money away from these necessary expenditures. It does not matter what the previous economic system was. Capitalist, socialist, communist, or any other, it does not matter. Austerity programs always degrade economic productive capabilities. When you combine this with ‘aid’ loans that are not in your local currency, the situation is worse. International finance sees the austerity program, and the aid loans, and they know what it means. They put pressure on the local currency relative to the loan currency. This drives the debt servicing costs up in the local currency. This extracts more money out of the economy, making the austerity worse, leading to less repair, maintenance, upgrading, etc. And so a bad economic spiral, from worse to worse happens. Also, the aid loans come with requirements for privatization. This also compounds the situation, making it worse.

The problems in the Baltic states now are the responsibility of the leadership there. Enough time has passed. It is not from any previous system. We know this because whenever and wherever economic austerity programs combined with aid loans occur, the local economy declines, and economic dependence is developed to the creditor nation(s). This is being said from the perspective of capitalism. If you want to be a capitalist success, then you have to do the things that make capitalism successful. This is definitely not taking aid loans, and going into austerity programs. The reality is, the Baltic states are paying tribute to euro-bankers that are plundering the countries. The euro-bankers will never allow the Baltic states to develop successful economies. The processes are obvious, because they have been used over and over again. In this case it is used to favor the traditional central powers of west Europe.

The powerful economies of the world like in the US, and now in China, do not, and did not take aid loans, and do not go into austerity programs. If you want to be a capitalist, you have to actually do what capitalists do. This is not what the Baltics are doing. They are being client/dependant states of other capitalist states that will never allow the Baltics to develop properly. It is not the fault of communism from ages past, it is the fault of Baltics leadership right now that have sold out to other euro-zone powers. Western capitalist powers are saying ‘do as I say, not as I do’. If you do as they say, you will not succeed. You have to do what they did to be successful, not what they say to do.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Do some search on what I wrote in the reply to one of Basil's posts. Over 1500 detained over the last 1.5 months for clapping their hands. Learn how those arrests were done, how some civilians were beaten during them, etc. If it's not enough for you to think something is going wrong there (that is, if you think it's ok), then I just wonder what principles you were taught in your childhood. Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s...

Then, your another mistake is you don't take into account that salaries of $800 a month are considered top level incomes there rather than "low salaries".

Look what has happened Canada: .Toronto G-20: Denying Civil Rights is a Crime
.Thousands of G-20 Detentions Illegal: Ontario Ombudsman
.Report from the G20
.These type of events are happening more than you realize, the mainstream news is not telling you everything that is happening in the glorious west.
."Some people even compared those events to what took place in Germany in the 1930s..."

Originally Posted by Lampada

Почему такая неприязнь к ни в чём не повинному человеку?

This thread reminds me a quote:
"Такую личную неприязнь испытываю к потерпевшему, что кушать не могу".