Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

СССР распался наверное потому что:
1) Бездарные реформы привели к экономическому кризису. А в кризис коллективы распадаются и каждый спасается сам.
2) Элиты почувствовали, что они могут получить выгоду от самостоятельности.
3) Союз никто не держал силой. В сознании людей сидел лозунг о праве наций на самоопределение, поэтому протестов не было.

Originally Posted by mergike

Lithuania also was a part of Soviet union back then and I (being a Lithuanian myself) think that most of Lithuanians now are really very happy that such a union do not exist now anymore.

Читал на одном чеченском сайте (жаль, что его закрыли за экстремизм) прямо противоположное мнение одной литовки. Вот бы вас свети заочно вместе. Она там очень убедительно выступила.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Читал на одном чеченском сайте (жаль, что его закрыли за экстремизм) прямо противоположное мнение одной литовки. Вот бы вас свети заочно вместе. Она там очень убедительно выступила.

I don‘t care what you‘ve read. Is it such your ‘‘proof‘‘ to counter our arguments? Bad try I said what MOST of Lithuanians think about this topic, and if you don‘t believe it then come to my country and ask whatever Lithuanian if he/she liked occupation and all these 50 years of repressions or what they think about 1991 01 13 events. I think that the answer will be clear to you

PS. I understand how much you can‘t stand that we come here and tell all these facts. Anyway, everything we said is complete truth - this is why anyone couldn‘t deny it

What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country against criminal rioters who occupied TV tower and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him. About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers who betrayed his comrades to Gestapo (they were tortured to death and there were women and children among them)? There was a war going on and he is still a hero in my opinion and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case. Balts who show such attitude just prove that your tiny republics still have a long road ahead to overcome inferiority complex and gain the right to call yourself civilized and grown-up nations. Have a nice day.

About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers

This unborn baby was a fucking nazi collaborator - Kononov did a very good job neutralizing him.

There was a war going

Of course there was, but I think that there is a difference between battle-hardened Gestapo soldiers and unborn babies - or maybe they are so hard to tell apart?

There were THREE sides in Latvia during WW2 - not two like soviet propaganda tells us.
1. Latvians
2. Nazis
3. Communists
And being AGAINST communism does not mean that we supported nazis. Hell - they killed 100 000 of our citizens.

and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case

Kononov's case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights and they did not object too - so maybe try to research some facts.
And if you think that Latvia can influence it's decisions - you are overestimating our powers big time .

What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him.

The problem is he was defending that constitution where it had no power anymore. The main mistake the Soviets then made was they too late realized they should just let it go.

My second point here is no political issues/ambitions are worth a single human life. If what that man did led to deaths of 14 civilians, he's an ordinary criminal and should be prosecuted not only in Lithuania but in any country that respects international laws.

And last, but not least, reducing to personal insults hardly makes your arguments more convincing...

Originally Posted by mergike

occupation and all these 50 years of repressions or what they think about 1991 01 13 events

Главное, чтобы вы там (западнее РФ) стали наконец счастливы. Но пока из Украины и Прибалтики я слышу не смех и веселье, а стоны в садо-мазо стиле от ковыряний в своих ранках и царапинках (которым 70-80 лет). То есть сами делаете антирекламу своему суверенитету.

Originally Posted by mergike

occupation

Никакой оккупации не было, и твои предки имели такие же права, как и любой житель СССР.
null-ю сказки рассказывай, он из поколения пепси.

Originally Posted by Юрка

Главное, чтобы вы там (западнее РФ) стали наконец счастливы. Но пока из Украины и Прибалтики я слышу не смех и веселье, а стоны в садо-мазо стиле от ковыряний в своих ранках и царапинках (которым 70-80 лет). То есть сами делаете антирекламу своему суверенитету.

It's pretty significant that you left out Belarus...

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Никакой оккупации не было, и твои предки имели такие же права, как и любой житель СССР.
null-ю сказки рассказывай, он из поколения пепси.

What if they wanted to have more rights than average Soviet citizens which would've been possible if they hadn't been annexed to the USSR?

Originally Posted by Юрка

Ты уточни, кому именно важно, чтобы мы ушли из Беларуси?
- западу?
- оппозиции?
И что значит "ушли"?
- перестали покупать белорусские товары?
- перестали поставлять свои товары?
- вывели капиталы?
- вывели прессу?

I meant you'd missed Belarus in your list of "moaning about their wounds"...

Requests to extradite criminals are not "moaning about wounds".

Originally Posted by Eric C.

What if they wanted to have more rights than average Soviet citizens which would've been possible if they hadn't been annexed to the USSR?

Здесь ты прав, СССР не давал прав на сегрегацию, апартеид и т.п.

СССР не давал прав на сегрегацию

That's Right - Latvia should end this segregation and close ALL russian schools immediately

Originally Posted by nulle

That's Right - Latvia should end this segregation and close ALL russian schools immediately

Maybe instead, the EU should tell Latvia & co to follow the rules on how to treat minorities, or no more development funds!
Btw - all that money being spent on developing the Baltic states is nothing less than (oh horror!) Socialism!
Taking money from the richer parts and redistributing to parts that need it right now.

Personally I think it is good, but I would like to see the countries that benefit from this EU principle also adhering to directives such as provisioning for language minorities and granting citizenship to those born in the country! As all other civilised European countries do.

When the Baltics don't do this, then I don't want my tax money spent on fixing up their churches and roads and what-have-you. If you are going to reap the econonomic benefits, you should respect the social principles.

And the whole point for christ's sake is to NOT bang on about who's done what wrong! All European countries have behaved like pigs at one point or another. If that was a reason for mistreating people, then we might as well nuke the whole continent right away.

If the UK, Spain, Finland, France, Italy and many more can manage to treat language minorities ok then why can't the Baltics? How can it be OK to discriminate a small child or a pensioner because you think the Stalin took the wrong decision in the 1940s, or because you have a low opinion about Putin? I think it's pathetic and very un-European.

Sources:
Demographics of Latvia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Demographics of Estonia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Demographics of Lithuania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Basil77, but look a bit further -
File:Ethnic groups in Latvia.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
And you will see that number of ethnic Latvians was +/- constant all the time (but is slowly decreasing now).
Ethnic Russian population on the other hand decreased a lot faster.
And rapid increase of Russian population in Soviet times was because Moscow sent immigrants here - and their inflow stopped after USSR dissolution.
And as you can see a lot of them went back to USSR after that.


The same with Estonia - ethnic Estonian population did not change much - Russian population decreased there.
And the same with Lithuania.
In all Baltic states, after occupation ended, percentage of "main" ethnicity grew, but Russian population decreased.
And we view that as a good sign.


Latvian population decreased in 90s because it was a period of crisis and uncertainty and people chose to have less children.
Russia's population chart is similar:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Po..._of_Russia.PNG

What is happening in Latvia?
.
Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
.

Originally Posted by Seraph

What is happening in Latvia?
.
Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
.

(note - the site requires login)

Well, if they want neo-liberalism, it's certainly their right as an independent country, to have it.
Basically, they wanted the exact opposite to Soviet socialism, and they got it, almost overnight and there have been some ups and downs since then. Whether this was great or not is for the Latvians to say.

But it seems that the result at the moment is an extremely high level of unemployment. Many streets are not in a good shape at all and many buildings are literally falling apart. Some schools and public buildings are quite well fixed up though. But I have never seen so much graffiti in my life.There is graffiti on all empty surfaces.
If you compare with how things LOOK, then Belarus looked a lot better. I can't say whether Latvia's economy is strong and has potential or whether it's living off borrowed money, subsidies and foreign investment. For the sake of the Latvians I hope it's the former.

It's a pity because it's a really nice little country with a very cool geographical location and a well educated and bilingual population. Perfect location for being an East-West gateway. It's got lots of cool and interesting architecture and it's one of the few places in Europe where all three main branches of Christianity exist together in harmony.

Prices are almost the same as elsewhere in the EU but peoples salaries are much lower.
I can only imagine that it's quite hard for most people to afford the things they would like to buy on the salaries that they have.

Originally Posted by Seraph

What is happening in Latvia?
.
Neoliberalism, the development of underdevelopment, and the Latvian disease | Bersizns | Spectrum Journal of Global Studies
.

Well, some people try manipulating other people's minds with such "smart" articles. I believe this is what's happening.

I see the link does not allow everyone who wants to read the article, access not allowed. Here is a different article link. .World Economic Crisis: Latvia痴 Neoliberal Madness
.
.Picture is not clear to outside people, because of differing perspectives, from people like Hanna, and Eric. How can we get the real picture?