Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Originally Posted by nulle

Baltic states did not - Russia on the other hand...

Yes, that‘s right... a lot of things has changed to the good side in Baltic states during these 20 years of independance and this is why we are really happy that there is no USSR today...
and if you Hanna say that somewhere in Latvia you see a building which is quite run down and restaurants doesn‘t seem to be fancy enough to you, then try to imagine how Baltic states looked during occupation when we were part of USSR and faced all these repressions...
And it seems really silly when you are comparing Liepaja and Minsk maybe you first of all should find out how many times Minsk is bigger than Liepaja....

Originally Posted by mergike

‪Lithuania Presentation [Long Version]‬‏ - YouTube

I like this comment under the video - "thank the russians and soviets for preserving all that beauty!"

Originally Posted by Romik

I like this comment under the video - "thank the russians and soviets for preserving all that beauty!"

It‘s obvious that it‘s not Lithuanian who wrote it. You never preserved anything here... 90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed by Russians. Is it what you call preservation????? Wake up at least once! All you are able to is just that - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Svh...eature=related

90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed by Russians.

When it happened? there was bombing?

All you are able to is just that

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Originally Posted by Romik

When it happened? there was bombing?

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Of course, these two things can’t be compared. But does it means that killing unarmed civilians is normal and everything have to be like that???? Actually, you really didn‘t surprise me with comparison of dead people number during January events and the number of Jewish killed during the second WW in Lithuania. However, I‘m not even trying to compare these two things, it‘s you who is doing it because you simply don’t know how to make all these soviet crimes in Lithuania look less serious.
By the way, if according to you it‘s Lithuanians who killed all these Jewish here then maybe you can explain one thing to me: Why when Nazis understood that they are going to lose against Russia they started digging out shot Jews bodies and then burned it? If it‘s Lithuanians who killed Jewish when we were occupied by Germany then why Nazi tried to hide proofs of this terrible crime? What was the point for Nazi to do that???

Anyway, I’m not going to delve in this topic anymore, if there is still something unclear to you then read my previous posts about it.
Furthermore, is it really important how Soviets destroyed towns of Lithuania? No matter how they did it, the result was the same – everything was destroyed.

It's incomparable with what happened with 200000 Lithuanian Jews.

Before Nazi invasion there were no problems with Jews in Baltics.
In Latvia yiddish was one of the official languages - you could speak in it in the parliament.
Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
The same was in other Baltic states too.
So please research the facts and don't spread bullshit propaganda.

Better look at Russia - now there racism and nazism definately is on the rise.
‪Nazi crisis in Russia‬‏ - YouTube
‪Set My Brother Free!!!‬‏ - YouTube
I was going to post another video - but better not - it is really fucked up...

Of course, these two things can’t be compared. But does it means that killing unarmed civilians is normal and everything have to be like that????

It means that we are not worse than you and your allies. There were bad things happened in Soviet Lithuania however in that time Lithuanians treated the same way as Russians and others and there were also similar clashes in Moscow in 1991, 1993. You've thrown words "90 per sent of my home town was completely destroyed" but how it was did, was it like in South Ossetia by night missile shelling on sleeping unarmed civilians by your ally? Or was there planned destroying worn-out buildings in order to build new ones?

Better look at Russia - now there racism and nazism definately is on the rise.

Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons.

Antisemitic and Nazi organizations were banned at that time and their leaders were imprisoned.
The same was in other Baltic states too.

But why now they work?

Originally Posted by Romik

Of course there are such things in society but in no way it's connived by authorities, just try to conduct any nazi march (as it happens in the Baltics) and you'll know what it's look like Omon's bludgeons.

But why now they work?

How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t.

First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania.
And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time.
Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that?
Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

Originally Posted by mergike

But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars???

Поделись своим научным открытием с Яд Вашем. Там эта гнида названа литовским погромщиком.
Лагеря уничтожения и массовые убийства - Фотографии- Образование - Яд Вашем

And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians??? And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively..

Do I have to remind you that more than 300,000 citizens of Estonia, almost a third of the population at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least 200,000 people or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war

In all, over 200,000 people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than 260,000 Latvians to flee the country.

Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them. Some 300,000 Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost 780,000 citizens as a result of Soviet occupation.

Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow.

During the years 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported, of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and 7.4% were Jews. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 were murdered.

This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

Originally Posted by mergike

How many questions you have! Maybe first of all you would like to answer to the ones which I gave to you??? you ‘‘were destroying worn out buildings and instead of it built new ones‘‘?? Maybe in your dreams!!! And about what allies are you talking about? Who were our allies? Nazi who occupied us or communists who also occupied us? Since when occupants are called as allies??? There were no allies at all! You know, I even was starting to think that I might have been too harsh in this forum, but after all you said there it seems that I really wasn’t.

First of all you say that Lithuanians killed all these Jews here but later on when there is no use of it and you are not able to give an answer to one simple my question then you start talking about these days? And what happens these days? Yes, everyone in Lithuania can express their own opinion, as long as it do not leads to criminal actions. It’s said in 25th article of Constitution of Lithuania that: Freedom to express convictions and to impart information shall be incompatible with criminal actions—incitement of national, racial, religious, or social hatred, violence and discrimination, with slander and disinformation. Therefore, doesn‘t matter if persons nationalistic or communistic ideas will lead to a criminal actions, racism or religion hatred etc., then you can be sure that this person will be punished there in a decent way. By the way, all Nazi and communist symbols are forbidden in Lithuania. Furthermore, if you say that Lithuanians are Nazi then find at least one registered nationalist party in Lithuania! But you know you‘ll simply waste your time because there is no registered Nazi party in Lithuania.
And I think that before starting to blame Baltic countries of nationalism you should find out how Russians behaved with Jews all the time.
Do you really want that I would remind you that Jews weren‘t even allowed to live in Russian empire during 1791 – 1917???? What was that???? Not a discrimination????? Not a racism????? ( to be more precise Russians let Jews live just in Lithuania, Poland, Belarus, Moldova and Ukraine.) However, as you know Baltic states before Nazi occupation didn‘t have any problems with Jews at all. Or maybe we should remember how Stalin cleaned up all the Jews from his party only because they were Jews????? What do you think was that?
Or maybe you want to know that when Russians occupied Lithuania they just simply explode the biggest synagogue in Vilnius old town? Did you show your love to Jews this way? And of course all these Jews which were still alive there after Nazi occupation the same way like Lithuanians didn‘t have any right to profess their own religious belief. So why don‘t you before blaming Baltic States of Nazism first of all look at yourself?

I do look at ourselves, there'd been bad things to Jews and other nationalities in USSR but it wasn't Nazism because they had the same that had Russians, there were exploded not only synagogues but also Russian churches. Anyways there is measure to any evil - exploded churches can be rebuilt but murdered people can't. As for occupation - it's not so big evil like genocide. We occupied, we were occupied and that has been going on all around the world, the best democracy is still doing it in Iraq, Afghanistan ets and the USA and many others are the result of occupation, so you can just thank God that you haven't shared fate with American Indians.

Originally Posted by mergike

And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians??? And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively..

Do I have to remind you that more than 300,000 citizens of Estonia, almost a third of the population at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least 200,000 people or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war

In all, over 200,000 people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than 260,000 Latvians to flee the country.

Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them. Some 300,000 Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost 780,000 citizens as a result of Soviet occupation.

Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow.

During the years 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported, of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and 7.4% were Jews. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 were murdered.

This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

Einsatzgruppen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the German invasion began, a massive series of bloody pogroms broke out, some of which were encouraged by the Germans, and all of which were the spontaneous outbreaks of local anti-Semitism.[28] Within the first few weeks of Operation Barbarossa, 40 pogroms had broken out with about 10,000 Jews being killed by local people.[29] The Canadian historian Erich Haberer has written that incidents such as the Jedwabne pogrom were not incidental, but rather "integral" to the Holocaust in Eastern Europe as without local help, the Germans could not have murdered so many so quickly.[30] Upon entering Kaunas on June 25, 1941, the Einsatzgruppen released all of the criminals from the local jail and encouraged them to join the already existing pogrom.[31] Between June 23–27, 1941, 4,000 Jews were killed on the streets of Kaunas by local people, and saw the first massacres of Jews in open pits committed by Lithuanian anti-Semitics.

As for GULAG - it was all political and Russians there were much more than Lithuanians

And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it.

Where you found that rubbish? What the sense to dig out bodies to burn them, how that could help to hide proofs of who exactly that did?

Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?

There are evidences of acts of executions and it's obviously without local help so many Jews could not be so quickly identified and murdered. Germans didn't know where lived every Jew.

Originally Posted by Romik

Where you found that rubbish? What the sense to dig out bodies to burn them, how that could help to hide proofs of who exactly that did?

There are evidences of acts of executions and it's obviously without local help so many Jews could not be so quickly identified and murdered. Germans didn't know where lived every Jew.

I said to you before to read my previous messages, but as I see you don‘t understood what I said.

I don‘t think that it was convenient at all because even in middle ages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disappear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!!

And there comes the second one.

Of course, I don‘t say that there was no Lithuanian who killed a Jewish (some were forced by Nazis), but as I said before most of Lithuanian people tried to save lives of Jewish people because we never had anything against them.
Doesn‘t it really seems strange to you that since middle ages there was no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish and just suddenly when Nazis occupied Lithuania all Lithuanians started to ‘‘hate‘‘ Jewish so much?
It‘s silly to put the blame on Lithuanians for Jewish massacres in my country, when most of the people risked their own lives to save these Jewish people.

By the way, that‘s not rubbish at all. That‘s a fact. Nazi were doing it not so that someone couldn‘t find out who killed Jews there, but because they wanted that the number of killed Jews in Lithuania wouldn‘t be so big and it wouldn‘t look as such a big crime, because when they started to lose to Russia, they understood that one day they still will have to pay for all these killings. So, as you understand when someone just burry the body of human it takes time while all the bones rots but when the bodies are burned who will count how many Jews were killed? Therefore, if it‘s Lithuanians who according to you killed 200 000 Jews in Lithuania then why Germans were trying to reduce number of dead Jews bodies???? Why they behaved so???? So, it‘s you not me who are saying noncences that Lithuanians who were occupied by Nazi killed all these 200 000 Jews. By the way, then what Nazi soldiers were doing in Lithuania according to you? Picking flowers from the fields of Lithuania? .

Originally Posted by Romik

I do look at ourselves, there'd been bad things to Jews and other nationalities in USSR but it wasn't Nazism because they had the same that had Russians, there were exploded not only synagogues but also Russian churches. Anyways there is measure to any evil - exploded churches can be rebuilt but murdered people can't. As for occupation - it's not so big evil like genocide. We occupied, we were occupied and that has been going on all around the world, the best democracy is still doing it in Iraq, Afghanistan ets and the USA and many others are the result of occupation, so you can just thank God that you haven't shared fate with American Indians.

Damn, do you think that I‘m so stupid? Since when one communist started killing another communist??? better go and tell such fairy tales to someone else.

‘‘there'd been bad things‘‘ – you call it just as a bad things? It‘s strange that you don‘t say that it‘s completely normal and that there were no crimes that Russians made in Baltic because they only ‘‘built everything here‘‘ as most Russians are used to say. Haha, yes synagogues can be rebuilt, but why then these Russians who ‘‘built everything in Lithuania‘‘ didn‘t rebuilt it but just exploded? And definitely these people who died in exile or were killed in Lithuania really never will be alive... by the way doesn‘t really killing all these Lithuanian people without any reason doesn‘t seem to be a genocide? How would you call it then?

Watch all this documentary if it‘s not clear what soviets did in my country…
‪Red Terror on the Amber Coast (FULL MOVIE) 1‬‏ - YouTube

by the way doesn‘t really killing all these Lithuanian people without any reason doesn‘t seem to be a genocide? How would you call it then?

There were political crimes and applied the same way to Russians, it wasn't on nationalistic reasons. If there was genocide you don't talk here.

Originally Posted by Romik

There were political crimes and applied the same way to Russians, it wasn't on nationalistic reasons. If there was genocide you don't talk here.

The term genocide came from Latin word ‘gens‘ which stands for “people who claim common descent,” that is, a clan, tribe, or even nation. However, according to Historian Norman Naimark these soviet crimes should be considered genocide on three grounds. First of all, some of Stalin‘s attacks were genocide under the UN definition, for example his exile and starvation of minority ethnic groups. Second, he shows that some of those who sought to define genocide during and after World War II did not intend to restrict it to gens: they included political groups, that is, entities like the Kulaks. The Soviets and others demanded these groups be removed from the definition, and they were. Third, international law has evolved, and with it the legal meaning of genocide: recent proceedings in the Baltic states, for example, have broadened the definition.

By the way, if it was just a crime for political reasons, then maybe you can explain what political crimes did just born babies, pregnant women or elders??? And if you still keep on claiming that during soviet times one communist kiled another communists then where is the info about all those ‘‘hundred thousands of Russians who died in Siberia because of starvation or slave labour‘‘ the same way as people from Baltic countries died????? Were russians massively deportated to Siberia without any reason and then people from occupied countries came to live in their houses? I said to you that you should go and tell fairy tales to someone else.

Originally Posted by mergike

The term genocide came from Latin word ‘gens‘ which stands for “people who claim common descent,” that is, a clan, tribe, or even nation. However, according to Historian Norman Naimark these soviet crimes should be considered genocide on three grounds. First of all, some of Stalin‘s attacks were genocide under the UN definition, for example his exile and starvation of minority ethnic groups. Second, he shows that some of those who sought to define genocide during and after World War II did not intend to restrict it to gens: they included political groups, that is, entities like the Kulaks. The Soviets and others demanded these groups be removed from the definition, and they were. Third, international law has evolved, and with it the legal meaning of genocide: recent proceedings in the Baltic states, for example, have broadened the definition.

By the way, if it was just a crime for political reasons, then maybe you can explain what political crimes did just born babies, pregnant women or elders??? And if you still keep on claiming that during soviet times one communist kiled another communists then where is the info about all those ‘‘hundred thousands of Russians who died in Siberia because of starvation or slave labour‘‘ the same way as people from Baltic countries died????? Were russians massively deportated to Siberia without any reason and then people from occupied countries came to live in their houses? I said to you that you should go and tell fairy tales to someone else.

Deportation is not genocide and after Stalin's death the exiled were allowed to move back. Frankly speaking, it was a strategic step to remove untrusted people from the borders of the country as there were had shown terrible things during the nazi occupation.
About hundred thousands of Russians dead from Stalin's repressions there is a lot of information, for example near Moscow in Butovo polygon were shot 20,000 political prisoners.

Originally Posted by mergike

And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified

Из википедии:

22 июня 1941 года, после нападения Германии на СССР, последовали мятежи в крупных городах Литвы. В Каунасе было провозглашено Временное правительство Литвы во главе с Юозасом Амбразявичюсом, которое с самого начала поддерживало тесные контакты с немцами. Как описывал Отто Кариус в своей книге «Тигры в грязи» начало оккупации Литвы:

Нас повсюду восторженно встречало население Литвы. Здешние жители видели в нас освободителей. Мы были шокированы тем, что перед нашим прибытием повсюду были разорены и разгромлены еврейские лавочки. Мы думали, что такое оказалось возможно только во время «хрустальной ночи» в Германии. Это нас возмутило, и мы осудили ярость толпы. Но у нас не было времени долго размышлять об этом^[6].

Даже немцев шокировала ваша "любовь" к евреям. (Если вы уж русским не доверяете в плане истории.)