Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Originally Posted by Basil77

Their posts.

The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

Originally Posted by Basil77

The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well. And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime. But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well. And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime. But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...

First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS

Vilnius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I know many Russians who "whine" about those terrible events as well.

You shouldn't worry, I call these Russians faggots too.

And I think that's ok, I totally understand the position of being equal victims of the ILLEGAL commie regime.

And what makes a regime legal? AFAIK in the modern world it's a UN membership and following international agreements. It's funny that this "illegal" regime as you called it was one of the founders of UN itself.

But also, I know there're plenty of Russians who think those events were great, that was a great empire, who think it's good that it took over and oppressed many neighbor countries. The question is, which attitude is dominant in Russia now...

Russians "took over and opressed many neighbor contries", my ass. First, attitude to the people in national republics from the goverment didn't differ from the attitute to the people in ethnic Russian regions. Second, USSR was an empire "upside-down" actually: almost all national republics comsumed more overall GDP than produced and were leeching metropoly instead of feeding it. So it's a big question who opressed whom, please stop writing nonsense about Russians who thinks that it's good that we "opressed" somebody.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Russians "took over and opressed many neighbor contries", my ass. First, attitude to the people in national republics from the goverment didn't differ from the attitute to the people in ethnic Russian regions. Second, USSR was an empire "upside-down" actually: almost all national republics comsumed more overall GDP than produced and were leeching metropoly instead of feeding it. So it's a big question who opressed whom, please stop writing nonsense about Russians who thinks that it's good that we "opressed" somebody.

LOL So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you?? That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum whahahahah then maybe you can explain for to me this fact if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘ then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free demokratic respublics?????
you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this :

It's pathetic. So what that I killed your family - I brought you a cake (that i stole from a neighbor) - or if you did not like what I have done, then you should give me my cake back.
I think most Lithuanians would rather choose independence instead of Vilnius region + Soviet occupation.

constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc.

These are facts of history - ignoring them wont make them go away.

such repressions took place all over USSR

Yes, but nothing like that happened in Baltics before occupation. Even when Kārlis Ulmanis got power in military coup - he killed no one.
Soviet occupation did not give us anything good - so it's no surprise that we are not particularly excited about it.

The general attitude towards Russians

I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand.

It is no surprise that Soviet Union disintegrated. Sad that it did not happen sooner.
It was not a normal country, but a giant prison.

Originally Posted by nulle

These are facts of history - ignoring them wont make them go away.

I'm not denying these facts, but constanly talking about it makes YOU pathetic - look that Germans did to Russians during WWII (and Balts were happily helping them in this): 27 million killed, 18 million from this number are civillians, but we don't blame modern Germans for this, actually attitude to modern Germans in Russia is rather friendly, we blame Hitler and Nazism wich are secretly admired in Baltics nowdays. How about acting like grown-ups and forgive&forget like we did?

I do not hate Russians - it's Putin's regime that I can't stand.

I do not hate Balts either, it's just the behavior of some of them that pisses me off. Btw, what so-called "Putin regime" did to you that you can't stand it? Prohibited sprats export to Russia or what? I thought Russia can't affect you now when you are in EU and NATO, so unless you live in Russia I don't see how current Russian goverment could do you any harm.

Originally Posted by mergike

First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS and try to remember it if you are able to do it. And this capital city was founded by Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (this city was mentioned in written resources in 1323) therefore, from the beginning of it’s existence it’s Lithuanians who always lived there, and the fact that in 1920 Armija Krajova occupied Vilnius and it became part of Poland till 1939 doesn’t mean that Vilnius is a Polish city. And I completely don’t understand what Belarus has common with Vilnius because this city hasn’t ever been a part of this country and Belarussians have no right to it at all.

I don't care how it's called in your language, it was called Вильно in Russian through most of it's history, so I prefer to call it so along with Reval, Helsingfors etc. And it doesn't matter who founded what, you would be the first who would scream out loud about Russian imperialism if Russians would demand back all cities we founded. And btw, majority of Wilno population in 1939 were Jews (44%), how convinient that soon nazis came and murdered them all (not without help of Lithuanians), huh?

Most of them are just proud of it and think that these occupations were the best part of their history... this is why they don't like Gorbachev so much and think that he was a very weak politician and traitor...

Most of Russians see the annexation of Baltic republic (actually Baltic governments requested USSR membership, under Stalin's pressure, yes, you could resist as Finland successfully did but your governments had chosen to not) as a necessary evil wich were needed to keep nazi forces further from Russian borders in aticipation of big war, wich was obviously inevitable, also it's viewed as an unsignificant side-event, so actually we don't pay much attention to this.

Originally Posted by Basil77

I do not hate Balts either, it's just the behavior of some of them that pisses me off. Btw, what so-called "Putin regime" did to you that you can't stand it? Prohibited sprats export to Russia or what? I thought Russia can't affect you now when you are in EU and NATO, so unless you live in Russia I don't see how current Russian goverment could do you any harm.

Haha you do not hate Balts but you call us faggots! This greatly shows how much you love us!
Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much. So how you‘ll explain this???

Originally Posted by mergike

Haha you do not hate Balts but you call us faggots! This greatly shows how much you love us!

I called so not the Baltic people in general, but only the ones who expressed such opinions as yours.

Russia can‘t affect us now? But Russia is still so much trying to do that. For example, I hope that you know that Lithuania has to pay political but not economical price for Gasprom gasses (which is 40 persent higher than price which have to pay our neighbours) only because Lithuania implemented the third EU directive in gas sector and this way we are going towadrs energetical independence from Russia, However, it‘s just obvious that Russia hates it so much. So how you‘ll explain this???

By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).

And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man!

How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.

I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified

See photos in ВарраВа's post.

So now these respuplics which was occupied by Russia are the ones who oppressed USSR? damn, are we still oppressing you?? That‘s the funniest thing I‘ve read on this forum whahahahah then maybe you can explain for to me this fact if these occupied countries was such a burden for Russia and Russia like usually ‘‘was the country of highest developements and there was the best walfare for it‘s people‘‘ then why Stalinas, Chrusciovas, Breznevas, Andropovas, Cernenko din‘t canceled all these occupations and didn‘t stopped all these repressions against Baltic people and simply didn‘t let us live our life in free demokratic respublics?????
you actually couln‘t say a bigger nonsence than this

You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now:

Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late-2000s_recession

Originally Posted by Basil77

I called so not the Baltic people in general, but only the ones who expressed such opinions as yours.

Then you still hate most of them because most ot Baltic people think the same way.

Originally Posted by Basil77

By neighbours you mean Belorussia? But it has a discount as a member of Customs Union. You can also apply for membership and ask a discount after that. Btw, if you want to have nothing common with Russia why you keep buying gas from us and whinie about high prices? Buy it from your fellow NATO member Norway for example (but mind that Norway's export gas prices are even higher than the current price you are paying to Russia).

No, I mean Latvia, Estonia and Poland Are all these countries also members of customs union?

Originally Posted by Basil77

How about all the cities and towns in modern Khazakhstan and Ukrainian Black Sea coast? Even Narva in modern Estonia was founded by Russians.

Haha you founded one city in Estonia Well done, good achievement after such destruction of this country

Originally Posted by Basil77

See photos in ВарраВа's post.

See what I wrote under barbara’s post

Originally Posted by Basil77

You can enjoy your life in "free democratic republics" now:

Source:
Late-2000s recession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YES, YOU CAN’T EVEN IMAGINE HOW MUCH I’M ENJOYING IT

Taken from Wikipedia:
Lithuania is a member of the European Union and the biggest economy among three Baltic states. GDP per capita reached USD17,800 in 2008 and was higher than the ones of all its neighbors – Latvia, Poland, RUSSIA and Belarus[9].
GDP per capita in Lithuania is 70% above the world’s average of USD 10,500[9]. Lithuania has a favorable legislative basis for business as the country is ranked the 3rd in the region of Eastern Europe and Central Asia[10] and the 26th in the world by the Ease of Doing Business Index prepared by the World Bank Group [11]. Lithuania is ranked the 30th out of 179 countries in the Index of Economic Freedom, measured by The Heritage Foundation[12]. According to the Human Development Report 2009, Lithuania belongs to the group of high human development countries.
Economy of Lithuania - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Basil77

I don't care how it's called in your language, it was called Вильно in Russian through most of it's history, so I prefer to call it so along with Reval, Helsingfors etc. And it doesn't matter who founded what, you would be the first who would scream out loud about Russian imperialism if Russians would demand back all cities we founded. And btw, majority of Wilno population in 1939 were Jews (44%), how convinient that soon nazis came and murdered them all (not without help of Lithuanians), huh?

And what cities you founded????? You just destroyed everything man!
I don‘t think that it was convinient at all because even in midleages Lithuanians gave many rights to Jewish people. And do you really think that there would have been so many Jewish people in Lithuania before WW II if we would have hated them and wanted that they would disapear from our country? It‘s a fact that before Nazis came to Lithuania there were no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish people. And if you didn‘t know it then remember that most of Lithuanians tried to help these innocent Jewish people hiding them in their houses or priests simply forged identity documents of newborn Jewish children, though for that that they could die themselves if Nazis found out this, and many actually died. And you know when Nazis told Lithuanians to kill these Jewish people, most of Lithuanians first of all shot themselves!!! So these your statements that Lithuanians helped Nazis to kill Jewish actually can‘t be really justified

Originally Posted by Basil77

I(actually Baltic governments requested USSR membership, under Stalin's pressure, yes, you could resist as Finland successfully did but your governments had chosen to not)

1940 06 14 Lithuania received ultimatum from Russia which demanded to make a new government and guarantee entrance for red army which will be located in main strategic points in Lithuania. Lithuania had to answer to this ultimatum till June 15th, 10 o’clock in the morning. However, in 1940. 06. 15 morning soviets were already there and occupied Lithuania (bringing to Lithuania 15 red army divisions, about 150 thousands of soldiers).
Therefore SSRS with this ultimatum broke:
1920 07 12 peace treaty between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1926 september 28th nonaggression and neutrality pact between Lithuania and Soviet Russia.
1939 october 10th mutual help agreement.
In 1940 June 17th USSR also occupied Užnemunės region, which under 1939 September 28th treaty between Germany and Russia belonged to Germany, therefore later on Russia paid 7,5 million dollar compensation to Germany. And then all Lithuania belonged to USSR. This is what is called ILLEGAL OCCUPATION which left no choice for Lithuanians to resist (however, there was a partizanian war against USSR in 1944-1953), because red army already was in Lithuania’s territory.
Learn some history first of all!

Originally Posted by Basil77

The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

First of all it’s not Wilno but VILNIUS and try to remember it if you are able to do it. And this capital city was founded by Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (this city was mentioned in written resources in 1323) therefore, from the beginning of it’s existence it’s Lithuanians who always lived there, and the fact that in 1920 Armija Krajova occupied Vilnius and it became part of Poland till 1939 doesn’t mean that Vilnius is a Polish city. And I completely don’t understand what Belarus has common with Vilnius because this city hasn’t ever been a part of this country and Belarussians have no right to it at all.