Вот, в том-то и дело, что "согласно грамматике, которую я изучал". Мы, носители языка, не можем разобраться во многих вопросах. Англоязычные точно так же. Кто писал эту грамматику? Кто ее преподавал?Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман
Гляньте на пример из литературы.
“Have you seen Mr. Whitford this morning?” – “He passed me”
Утро еще не кончилось, согласно школьной грамматике. Это якобы видно из первого предложения. Почему же ему отвечают в неперфекте?
Всё правильно. Почитайте English Grammar
Если действие сначала обозначено как Present Perfect, то при развёртывании информации в последующем к нему обращаются как к Past Simple. Хрестоматийный пример:
- I cannot open the door, I have lost my key.
- Where did you lose it?
- I think I dropped it somewhere in the street.
За аутентичность не ручаюсь, но примерно так будет.
А почему? Сегодня еще не закончилосьВсё правильно. Почитайте English Grammar
Если действие сначала обозначено как Present Perfect, то при развёртывании информации в последующем к нему обращаются как к Past Simple. Хрестоматийный пример:
- I cannot open the door, I have lost my key.
- Where did you lose it?
- I think I dropped it somewhere in the street.
За аутентичность не ручаюсь, но примерно так будет.
Imagine the following scenario:Представьте ситуацию. Ребенок пришел из школы, и мать его спрашивает:
- Откуда у тебя синяк под глазом?
- Да вот подрался сегодня с Васькой.
- Как это произошло?
- Ну, я сидел за партой, играл в игру на мобилке, подошел Васька и говорит, дай я поиграю.
- Я сказал, что сам хочу играть. Он попытался вырвать у меня телефон. Я спрятал его в портфель. Тогда он размахнулся и ударил меня.
Your son comes home from school with a black eye and his mum asks him:
- How did you get that black eye?
- I've been in a fight with Vaska.
- Why?
- Well I was just sitting at my desk playing a game on my cell phone when Vaska came over and told me to give him a turn. When I told him I wanted to play the game he tried to grab it off me so I hid it in my bag. Then he punched me!
(после коррекции нейтив-спикером)
Уж простите что не оправдал ваших ожиданий, мне слово "сегодня" в такой роли (промежуточного ничего не значащего словца, типа заполнителя) кажется присущим только русскому языку. Ну не звучит там today и всё. ИМХО
Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.
Я сейчас тоже в процессе "допроса свидетелей". Чуть позже поделюсь их показаниями.
Итак, свидетели допрошены. Два native speakers предложили следующие версии.
A boy came home from school. His mother asked him.
- What a bruise you’ve got under your eye! What happened?
- I fought with Peter today.
- How did it happen?
- Well, I sat at my desk and played a game on my cellphone. Pete came up to me and asked for it to play. I refused and said that I want to play by myself. Then he tried to pull the phone out of my hands. I hid it in my bag it into my bag. Then he hit me in the face.
A boy came home from school. His mother asked him:
- What a bruise you’ve got under your eye. What happened?
- I fought with Peter today.
- How did it happen?
- Well, I sat at my desk and played a game on my cellphone. Pete came up to me and asked for it to play. I refused and said that I want to play it myself. Then he tried to pull the phone out of my hands. I hid it into my bag. Then, he hit me in the face.
Ни одного предложения в перфекте. А сегодня еще не закончилось.
Что будем делать с правилом?
С каким правилом? Сформулируйте его чтобы можно было говорить более предметно. В общем случае можно об одном и том же событии говорить как в перфекте, так и в неперфекте, вы это прекрасно знаете. Для этого просто нужен подходящий контекст. Так, например, событие "to have a flat tire" в прошлом можно выразить как перфектом (I have had a flat tire), так и обычным Simple Past (I had a flat tire). Оба предложения грамматически корректны, но они в отрыве от контекста, как говорится, don't make much sense. Они нормально впишутся в следующие контексты:Что будем делать с правилом?
- Daniel, my car doesn't steer properly, what could've happened?
- Check the tires, Monica, you might have gotten a flat tire.
*checking*
- Yes, you were right, the left front one is as flat as a pancake, what am I going to do now?
- Monica have you ever had a flat tire? You are going to replace the wheel yourself or call the roadside assistance.
On the next day:
- Hi Johanna, you wouldn't believe, yesterday on my way home I had a flat tire and called the roadside assistance. I waited for them for nearly three hours and when they finally arrived and fixed it I was totally frozen and I didn't feel like I wanted to go to the party. The battery in my cell died and I couldn't call you. So I'm terribly sorry for I couldn't make it there. Hope you guys had a lot of fun.
(Native speakers of English, please correct me if you see something unnatural in my text)
Так что сформулируйте правило, чтобы мы говорили более предметно.
Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.
Вот это правило.
Да, примеры замечательные. Но как тогда быть с тем моим примером?
Have you seen Mr. Whitford this morning? - He passed me. (It's from George Meredith, I haven't read personally, though).
Helen, you might want to look at this for a general description of how the Present Perfect tense works. The idea behind the tense is that something happened at an unspecified time before now. So the issues like "I haven't seen Mr. Whitford" (for the whole life of me) or "I have seen this movie once or twice" represent the classical usage of the tense. However, as it's already mentioned in the description on the link, you may want to specify the period of time, during which something has happened. You may use such expressions as "in the last year", "in the past few weeks", "this week", et cetera. All those expressions of time do include today in them. Like in Russian "в этом году", or "последние несколько дней" and so on. But if the period of time ended before today, as in "last year", "yesterday", "three years ago", you may not use the Present Perfect tense. But we have also mentioned that today is included into the acceptable period of time. That said, you may as well use it to limit the period of time you are looking in for an event. But I don't think it's normal in colloquial speech to refer to things happened today using the Present Perfect tense. On the other hand, I wouldn't call it ungrammatical either (I hope native English speakers don't mind my saying that). But it conveys a somewhat different sense than just uttering that something happened today. You might want to take a look at this short discussion, I hope it can elaborate.
Sincerelly yours, Eugene
Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.
10 баллов!Sincerelly yours, Eugene
Ну что поделать, прямо на язык просилось
Не привык я к такому витиеватому слогу, но захотелось попрактиковаться.
В самом деле, no offence meant.
Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.
Let's imagine the situation. Let's call it "Eugene's holiday".
You've been off to a faraway island for a month's holiday. There is no TV, newspapers, internet, radio there and you know nothing about the latest events in the world. On the second day of your stay Michael Jackson dies (may he forgive me for the example. It was not me who brought up this story). Then, after a month, you come back and I'm meeting you at the airport. The first phrase I say to you is, "Can you imagine? Michael Jackson has died!"
Can you claim that my use of the tense would be not correct? That an American would never say that?
No Helen, I definitely wouldn't say that. Why are you asking? Have I said that sentences like yours weren't correct? I don't think so.
It's just on the contrary, I'm pretty sure this kind of phrase agrees perfectly with the principle given, like "something happened at an unspecified time before now".
Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.
I might interject, though, that what someone would more likely say would be, "Can you imagine? Michael Jackson died!". To say "Michael Jackson has died" implies a fairly recent event, say, within a day perhaps.
Thank you, Kevin. Though I didn’t expect to hear this version of yours, your opinion is valuable to me. I’m trying to either prove or cast away a theory I came across in a text-book. Ok, let’s imagine a bit different situation. Let it be called "Our holiday".
Eugene and me have spent a month’s holiday on that island. (Eugene, don't panic, I only said “let’s imagine”).
Would you say that last sentense about Jackson? Is Present Perfect appropriate here? Mind the date of his death.
I would also appreciate the versions of all native English speakers who might read this post of mine and the previous one, that of the 5th of November, 02:57 PM, in the blue colour.
I would like to point out that you may not bother commenting your versions, just say what you would say. Nevertheless I would love to hear your comments or explanations if you have any.
Hi Helenej, your English is great. There are only a few words and letters which I would change to help the paragraph become slightly more natural: Eugene and I have spent a month’s holiday on that island. (Eugene, don't panic, I only said “let’s imagine”). Jackson died on the second day of our stay there. Later we arrived at the airport, caught a bus and went home. I took the mail out of the mail-box. We sat down at the table and I looked through the newspapers as we ate. Then I exclaimed, “Can you imagine? Michael Jackson has died!” Hope this helps
"Eugene and I"... I had always thought that "...and me" sounds cooler.Hi Helenej, your English is great. There are only a few words and letters which I would change to help the paragraph become slightly more natural: Eugene and I have spent a month’s holiday on that island. (Eugene, don't panic, I only said “let’s imagine”). Jackson died on the second day of our stay there. Later we arrived at the airport, caught a bus and went home. I took the mail out of the mail-box. We sat down at the table and I looked through the newspapers as we ate. Then I exclaimed, “Can you imagine? Michael Jackson has died!” Hope this helps
And all the story in the past tense. Ok.
"Later" instead of my "then". How could I forget such a useful word?
"Caught a bus" instead of "took a bus". Agreed, it sounds more lively.
"Went home" instead of "come home". Uh-oh. Can you see me blushing for this boo-boo?
Thank you, Tovarisch.
So, do you mean that "Michael Jackson has died!” is ok for you?
Inspite of the fact that it occured a month before my saying that?
Actually it was the point of my request.
Yeah, a lot of people, especially younger people (including myself in the past) have used "and me" as it sounds fairly correct, but our grammar teachers were always correcting us to use "and I" instead, as it's essentially the proper phrase, but it probably sounds strange to a non-native speaker, but either phrase should essentially do the job, the point is still the exact same :P
As for the"Went home" and "come home", it's no big problem, you could even change one letter and say 'Came home" and it still make sense.
As for your last quote, it's perfectly fine, since you learnt about Michael Jackson's death when you returned from the holiday, although he actually died while you were on the holiday, one month is still considered fairly recent. Your English really is great overall, honestly if I didn't know that you weren't a native speaker I would never have even realized
We, Russians, always say "и я" and never "и меня" when it is the subject. So it doesn't sound strange for us at all.
On the contrary, quite natural. Though it's a very interesting remark of yours.
There is a big difference between come and go. It's about directions. I shouldn't have confused them.
Great! I'm working my way around that theory. It works.As for your last quote, it's perfectly fine, since you learnt about Michael Jackson's death when you returned from the holiday, although he actually died while you were on the holiday. Your English really is great overall, honestly if I didn't know that you weren't a native speaker I would never have even realized
And one thing more. What would you say about the situation described in my previous post which is a little above the first one?
It is of the 5th of November, 02:57 PM, in the blue colour.
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