View Poll Results: Should there be a separate section for slang and substandard language?

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  • Yes

    4 20.00%
  • No

    16 80.00%
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Thread: Getting rid of the pseudo-Russian slang here

  1. #1
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    Getting rid of the pseudo-Russian slang here

    Hi everybody,

    I am a native Russian speaker and I thought I should make a point about what is currently popping up in this forum. Just so you know Russian is not only a language of gopniks and mafia. It is a language of the people. It is very sad that so many questions are about ugly expressions, produced by compromised micro-minds who do not deserve to speak a language with more than 100 words. Of course there can be discussions about slang and expressions borrowed from or heavily influenced by other languages or lingos, but why not place them in a dedicated section, like "Questions about Russian slang and criminal vocabulary"? Please express your opinion about it, anything that adds to the discussion is welcome.

    Note to the moderator: I encourage you to transfer this topic into any place you believe is appropriate, but please make it visible to other forum members. Thank you!

  2. #2
    Почтенный гражданин Inego's Avatar
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    Would you be so kind as to provide us with a concrete example?

  3. #3
    Почтенный гражданин Inego's Avatar
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    I voted Yes, but at the same time I think that it will be difficult to learners of Russian to decide what is slang and what is not.

  4. #4
    Властелин iCake's Avatar
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    Firstly, slang is inevitable and crucial part of any language. Or you can claim that you have never ever used slang in your speech?

    Secondly, what questions do you expect to come up here? There is no suprise that there are a lot of questions about slang being asked here. Think about it, if a word is used in its literal or usual and normal figurative sense, you can easily understand the word or effortlessly look it up in a dictionary. But this is the whole new story if you ran across a slang word or a slang expression. You can't understand it, even though you might be already familiar with the word or words. You probably can't look them up in a dictionary because they usually don't contain slang words or slang meanings of usual words. So what are you going to do? Of course, you're going to check up with native speakers on these matters.

    Third of all, how is a non-native Russian speaker supposed to know whether they came across a slang word or expression? Of course, there might be some clues to determine a word or expression to be slang, but there mightn't be. That leads us to the fourth statement.

    Fourth of all, this has to be a moderator who organizes all slang related questions into a slang section of the forum. But would our moderator not mind this extra (and maybe absolutely inapt) work?
    Inego and MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY like this.
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    If you've spotted any mistake in my English, please, correct it. I want to be aware of any mistakes to efficiently eliminate them before they become a habit.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inego View Post
    Would you be so kind as to provide us with a concrete example?
    Sure, here are a few:

    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D0%B7%...D%D0%B8-21139/
    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D0%B1%...B%D0%B5-21188/
    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D0%BB%...B%D0%BE-21204/
    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D0%BF%...6%D0%B0-21229/
    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D0%B2-...B%D0%BE-21258/
    http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D1%84%...0%D1%85-21259/

    The native Russian speakers are not the ones whom my concern is primarily addressed to. Everyone familiar with life in Russia (and other post-Soviet countries) can distinguish the wheat from the chaf with respect to language use and style, but foreigners can mistakenly assume that this is how Russian is supposed to sound in ordinary life, which it is not. I believe they need some help in this regard, so that the front entrance to the language is a normal language of more or less educated people who are not involved in criminal business and take no interest in it. I suppose such people are still the majority despite some trends. All in all, the language will outlast any temporary phenomena, but this is another topic. My post was about one specific thing, i.e. moving all substandard and criminal-inspired language to a different section. It is not the best thing to have questions about the language of classical writers (which is often outdated, but this is more tolerable) and pseudo-Russian (totally ungrammatical or semantically deviant) slang in one section.

  6. #6
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    I can't say i've been reading posts a lot recently, but I don't remember anything extremely rude or substandard (perhaps, due to my lack of interest towards something I already know)... I am generally OK with anything except Russian 'mat' discussions (which can be easily done in private chats, or in general chat - and some people use 'mat' in general chat, and there seem to be no objections at all), because a non-Russian speaker has no idea of what this/that word means, and what if they would like to post the question on a forum? (not in chats), i.e. a non-Russian speaker can't a priori know that this is slang, jargon, or whatever and they start a thread in Grammar and Vocabulary section which seems logical... I can't say I am overly emotional when it comes to such language (frankly, I would probably just not read the thread if it's some stupid Russian word from a 'shanson' or whatever), and it's my perception that a non-Russian speaker's idea of the slang word which they don't know is somewhat blurry; so linguistically speaking, I would let it go, for any word is part of the language, as appendix is part of the body, a useless and a doomed part though. At the same time, it seems to me it is our cherished duty to explain to the non-Russian speakers the ideas and nuances behind such words, and finally let them be advised that such words should generally be avoided. Appendices are to be removed, but eyes ought not to be averted from a doomed organ.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    Firstly, slang is inevitable and crucial part of any language.
    Idiots are also inevitable part of any culture, but they can at least disguise as eccentric ones at times. Slang cannot disguise itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    how is a non-native Russian speaker supposed to know whether they came across a slang word or expression?
    If you are reading a book about criminal events of the 90s you are supposed to know what you are dealing with. That's surely not the type of language you are expected to use when you address a person in the street or converse with your host when you stay in Russia or Ukraine.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCake View Post
    this has to be a moderator who organizes all slang related questions into a slang section of the forum.
    You assume that in most cases people cannot relate to what they are asking about and, hence, cannot put it into the section the context suggests. But what if I say that 80-90% of the people asking questions about slang know it is about slang, because:
    a) they know it from the abstract of the book they are reading
    b) they can't look up these words or phrases in the dictionary
    c) the machine translation tools they may use do not understand such language
    Even if some of the questions make their way into the wrong section, it won't do much damage to that section. But having questions about aristocratic language of the past centuries and questions about criminal jargon following one another is beyond ridiculous.

  8. #8
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    @alexsms: I am not talking about 'mat' here. It is a completely different topic. And it is a topic that very soon gets too boring to deserve a special section, IMO.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NextOfKeen View Post

    If you are reading a book about criminal events of the 90s you are supposed to know what you are dealing with.
    Couldn't agree more. Now I remember SPERK was reading such kind of book. I hope SPERK is reading this thread))) I explained to SPERK that the word "борзой" is very much like criminal slang... It seems noone told SPERK this language is very criminal.. But SPERK is probably totally OK with it and knows this is non-standard language... Anyway, it would be nice to hear all the parties involved.

  10. #10
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    BTW if a truъ humanitarian tells you that you speak your native language as "standard language," then you are supposed to be abused. It means that you speak disgusting emasculate officialese, your vocabulary is poor, your style is primitive, ugly and mechanistic and overall you are unable to express your ideas effectively in most real situations.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  11. #11
    Почтенный гражданин MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY's Avatar
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    Slang : A type of language that consists of words and phrases that are regarded as very informal, are more common in speech than writing, and...

    One of our (already existed) categories; Translate This!: "Get help with translations of Russian words, phrases, songs and poems into English."
    Another category is Grammar and Vocabulary: "Find answers to common grammar and vocabulary questions."
    Which if you noticed, include a Sticky: http://masterrussian.net/f15/%D1%81%...C%D1%8B-14853/
    That, kind of, include this.
    Also this is not a new site/forum, it has been created since 2002, if it was such a big problem, we've already had a section/category for it.
    I think you overrate this issue. The most important thing is that users learn and get the answer of their question. If we keep overrate such kind of issues, it will bring up a lot more categories.
    Let's Live By The Moment... Cause Together Ain't Promised Forever
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  12. #12
    Почтенный гражданин Inego's Avatar
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    Your thread is called "pseudo-Russian slang"; what is the truъ Russian slang then?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY View Post
    Also this is not a new site/forum, it has been created since 2002, if it was such a big problem, we've already had a section/category for it. I think you overrate this issue.
    I think you overrate my involvement with this issue. I was passing by and made a statement accompanied with a suggestion. Yes, I created a poll, but that is for the community and not for my personal self-assertion. I have absolutely no intention to 'convert' people to anything, or even to make myself understood completely in cases such as this. BTW if you are a foreigner with as much respect for my language as for a pair of old boots, I have no objection, but if you are a native Russian speaker taking the role of an expert, you could have provided a more sophisticated opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY View Post
    The most important thing is that users learn and get the answer of their question. If we keep overrate such kind of issues, it will bring up a lot more categories.
    For a site that boasts to be around since 2002 and dealing with such a complex topic as a foreign language you have darn few categories, my friend. Fewer than in a junior school textbook.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inego View Post
    Your thread is called "pseudo-Russian slang"; what is the truъ Russian slang then?
    What I meant was (Pseudo-Russian) slang, not pseudo-(Russian slang), i.e. the type of verbal expression that can hardly be associated with the Russian language because it is very distant in many ways from its grammatical and semantic tradition. It is closer to the pidgin of a caveman who accidentally picked up several words while being on display at a Russian zoo.

  15. #15
    Завсегдатай sperk's Avatar
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    Language is language. I don't see a point in a separate section for slang. I don't see what you mean by psuedo and not associated with Russian. The slang I see is all based almost entirely on Russian, not on loan words from other languages. It seems you are more concerned with people getting the wrong impression about the Russian language because of slang and perhaps confusing the language of Pushkin with that of a street thug. If someone is studying Russian and they can't tell the difference between those sources they need to study harder. Furthermore, a beginner may not know where to post, as he wouldn't know if a word was slang. And there are gradations of slang, slangy for example, may not be fully slang. Besides, there are очень много Russian slang sites and dictionaries on the web.
    Кому - нары, кому - Канары.

  16. #16
    Увлечённый спикер Fester's Avatar
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    It is interesting and a bit surprising for me that some russians don't want to stand for slang phrases or "mat", acting like it don't exist and are not used.

    It is indeed a very important part of learning the language, and understanding it.

    Of course it also matters what you want to use the language for, but if you want to be able to discuss and act with native people, being stricly formal all the time not only makes it harder for you to understand them, it's also a bit awkward.

    To conclude, I think that slang words, phrases and their meaning definately should be studied along with "normal" russian, since it's such a big part of the language.

  17. #17
    Почтенный гражданин MISSFOXYSWEETCHERRY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NextOfKeen View Post
    BTW if you are a foreigner with as much respect for my language as for a pair of old boots, I have no objection, but if you are a native Russian speaker taking the role of an expert, you could have provided a more sophisticated opinion.
    Oh really?? I'm half Russian and Russian isn't my native language and i don't live in Russia and guess what? I don't really care you consider me foreigner or what, because i love Russia and Russian language, and am not here to see how you're gonna criticize me and my opinions(whether you call it sophisticated opinion or worse)
    I think i forgot your contribution for this site!! Otherwise i can't find any way to see "YOU" respect Russian language, and me and your so called "Foreigners" respect Russian language as a pair of old boots!!
    Where have you been since 2009? Cause you just started your activity by complaining!! As it is written under your name, you're a "Новичок". You as a native Russian speaker could/can "contribute".
    FYI you better know foreigners are here for "learning" Russian, but you??! Not only you don't contribute but generalize foreigners like this (in your only one and very first thread): "if you are a foreigner with as much respect for my language as for a pair of old boots" . And oh if you're going to deny it i better say your whole sentence means this: Native Russian speakers respect Russian language, Foreigners respect it as they respect pair of old boots.

    Quote Originally Posted by NextOfKeen View Post
    For a site that boasts to be around since 2002 and dealing with such a complex topic as a foreign language you have darn few categories, my friend. Fewer than in a junior school textbook.
    Oh yeah? Maybe you can make your own forum? Bring it up! No one sent you an invitation to register here if it's so bad.
    Inego likes this.
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    Почтенный гражданин pushvv's Avatar
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    Что-то слишком много болтовни развели из-за какой-то чепухи

  19. #19
    Почтенный гражданин Inego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pushvv View Post
    Что-то слишком много болтовни развели из-за какой-то чепухи
    We have fed a troll

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    Для внесения ясности я могу добавлять слово "сленг" в заголовки соответствующих тем.
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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