Thread: Life in our countries - "good, bad and ugly"...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

That is a very interesting video. It causes mixed feelings, but the primary one is, "darn, it doesn't even take freedom of press to be made and shown to the public!" xD The Soviet propaganda failed to dig out any real problem the U.S. had at that point, and instead it was "exposing" the same naive and foolish stereotypes (racism, militarism, the anti-commie policies, etc.) over and over again. I think even most of the Soviets who watched it didn't believe it, as they were starting to learn more about the "evil capitalism" on their own. (whatever it sounds like, that 1.5 mile long line before the Soviet only McDonald's kind of proved that).

Now, was anything like that video, exposing the "America's view on the USSR" broadcasted to the public in the USSR? It seems not, for the Soviet authorities were really afraid of speaking aloud about any hypothetic problem that country might've had, not to mention the real problems they had, that could've easily been exposed. That was the reason anything that diverged from "everything's super awesome in our communist state" was banned from any media sources. If I'm being incorrect here, please share a proof link, anyone. =))

It was all made up, Eric! That was not really Soviet propaganda. It was a White House briefing full of faked stuff.

As for Soviet propaganda about America, didn't you ever read Крокодил? I have a stack of issues dating back to the Brezhnev and Krushchev eras and they actually pointed out the flaws with capitalism fairly accurately. In fact, I was leafing through some of them recently and it struck me that the cartoons in them are still quite relevant today. In fact, maybe especially relevant.

This one, for example about sums up the corruption in DC...




But where America really "out did" the Soviets was in our movies. All the movies like Red Dawn which portrayed Russians with such bad stereotypes that to this day, a majority of Americans still cling to them! In American movies, Russians seem to fit into one of three categories:

1. Evil Russky
2. Cannon Fodder
3. Comic Relief

For more about America's bad stereotypes of Russians, these articles are helpful:

Russian Stereotypes: Western perception of Russia as seen through Russian’s eyes. Part I. | Russian Universe

Representation of Russia(ns) in Western Popular Culture: Klyukvification and Russian Character Types. | Russian Universe


The USSR never created movies with such terrible stereotypes about Americans, at least none that I ever saw. In fact most of their movies were based on literary works or сказки.

American propaganda is the best in the world, but personally that is not a fact I am proud of.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It is said that Lewis Carroll based his classic "Through the Looking Glass" on his own travels in Russia. I am not sure it was ever confirmed if this is true, but it would not surprise me in the slightest and in fact, in that context, Alice and the Cheshire Cat and the Mad Hatter all take on an even fuller dimension.

Really, he went to Russia?! Had no idea. I don't really see any correlation between Russia and Through the Looking Glass, but I'm not exactly a literature connoisseur.

Originally Posted by Deborski

I have a stack of issues dating back to the Brezhnev and Krushchev eras and they actually pointed out the flaws with capitalism fairly accurately. In fact, I was leafing through some of them recently and it struck me that the cartoons in them are still quite relevant today. In fact, maybe especially relevant.

I had the experience growing up of being subjected to a LOT of left wing stuff, anti-americanism etc. You don't have to be from the USSR for that, really. Once I started becoming aware of it, quite young, I totally resented having it subtly and not-so-subtly in-your-face from TV, radio and papers. Not because it wasn't true, but because it was tiresome and patronising.
And the social pressure was frustrating; woe to the child who'd not fully play along with the topics du jour in school. Peace, solidarity, anti-imperialism etc, etc. Oh well,

And I eventually (90s) I rejected it quite thoroughly, becoming a neo liberal, pro EU etc.

The trouble, like you say, is that the things the leftist people, are/were saying, is true. It's happening.
It can be substantiated, observed and it's going on right under your nose, whether you have a problem with it, or think it's acceptable. It's not a conspiracy or a daydream. That's why it's so hard to ignore it.

Whether revolution, and the ideas the Marx & co promoted are the actual solution, is another problem though. Perhaps they could diagnose the illness but their proposed cure was ultimately never going to work, or the price/flipside is too unacceptable.

In terms of the opinions stuffed down your throat, it's just been a U-turn, and instead of solidarity and all that, it's now globalism, political correctness, consumerism and myths about the utter evilness of, for example, communism. And now, just like then, some people drank the kool-aid [this is my fave american expression!] and will think exactly what media wants them to think.

For Russians though, the situation is so extreme! From Socialism and communist ideology for real, via "wild East" years and cowboy capitalism, to Putin's Russia of nationalism, conservative values and cronyist economy. One of the many things that makes Russia so fascinating. And probably the whole journey is also what makes Russians so cynical.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Really, he went to Russia?! Had no idea. I don't really see any correlation between Russia and Through the Looking Glass, but I'm not exactly a literature connoisseur.

Indeed it was his only foreign travel experience outside the Isles.

Lewis Carroll in a Russian wonderland of surprises - Telegraph


Excerpt:

The only time the author Lewis Carroll travelled outside the British Isles was when he took a trip to Russia and threw himself into an adventure as impetuously as Alice did when venturing down the rabbit hole.

The role of the White Rabbit was played by Carroll’s friend and colleague Henry Liddon. On July 4, 1867, Liddon suggested to Carroll that they visit Russia, and, just one week later, they set off.

Some researchers have suggested that this is where Carroll got the idea for Through the Looking-Glass. Even if he did not, one thing is clear: the country made a big impression on the writer, who recounted his experiences in his Russian Journal.

First it was St Petersburg, the “city of giants” with its wide streets (“even the secondary streets are wider than any in London”); then Moscow, where he spent two weeks; and Nizhny Novgorod, where he and Liddon dashed to the fair, naively hoping to get there and back in a day.

Carroll spent his time in Russia with the palpable enthusiasm of someone making a new discovery, excitedly transcribing long words, such as zashchishchaiushchikhsya, into his notebook, haggling enthusiastically with cab drivers and writing vivid descriptions of Orthodox churches. Those in Moscow he thought “outwardly resembled cactuses with sprouts in various colours”, seeing their domes as “curved mirrors” in which “pictures of the city’s life are reflected”.

Other resources:

http://moskvoved.blogspot.com/2012/0...cow-intro.html

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...f-lewis-carrol

Interestingly and I think, significantly, Vladimir Nabokov wrote a translation of Lewis Carroll's classic:

http://www.amazon.com/Nabokov-Russia.../dp/0486233162

Originally Posted by Deborski

...Interestingly and I think, significantly, Vladimir Nabokov wrote a translation of Lewis Carroll's classic:

The Nabokov Russian Translation of Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland: Lewis Carroll, Vladimir Nabokov: 9780486233161: Amazon.com: Books

Льюис Кэрролл. Аня в стране чудес

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But this video, as I said, was not made for Russians to watch -- it was made for the viewing of President Reagan and other Americans who didn't know the Russian alphabet.

I know it. I meant they do it for themselves. Like teenagers joke behind somebody's back. If we can't do anything with the USSR, let's specially mangle their language, scoff at their strange names and so on. It's sort of a pitiful rite: we laugh at them, therefore we become stronger.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

I know it. I meant they do it for themselves. Like teenagers joke behind somebody's back. If we can't do anything with the USSR, let's specially mangle their language, scoff at their strange names and so on. It's sort of a pitiful rite: we laugh at them, therefore we become stronger.

It turned out, nothing had to be done about the USSR externally - it was going down at an impressive pace on its own. =))

Originally Posted by Lampada

Льюис Кэрролл. Аня в стране чудес

Набоков и переводы -- это отдельная тема. Перевод Кэррола (а точнее -- адаптация) -- это еще ранние годы, а вот позже его взгляды и требования к переводу сильно изменились, как раз в сторону максимально точного соответствия оригиналу. Занимаясь преподавательской деятельностью в США он беспощадно ругал работы Констанс Гарнет (одной из первых и самой известной переводчицы русской литературы на английский), открыто называя их дерьмом.
Самым большим и неоднозначным переводом Набокова является, если так можно выразиться, перевод Евгения Онегина. Переводить начал еще в 30-е, закончил в 60-е, и в результате получился едва ли не машинный перевод в прозе, зачастую с "русскими" грамматикой и порядком слов. В довесок шел двухтомный(!) комментарий, где каждая строка разбиралась на косточки.
Из-за этого перевода, кстати, Набоков вусмерть разругался со старым другом Эдмудом Уилсоном, который опубликовал разгромную статью на его перевод (The Strange Case of Pushkin and Nabokov by Edmund Wilson | The New York Review of Books). Этой обиды Набоков не простил Уилсону даже тогда, когда тот умирал от болезни.

All the great Russian writers are philosophers mainly, especially Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. That's why translation is so important. For example, I have read criticism of the translations of Nietzsche into Russian. It was very interesting, because sometimes it seems that some notions are slightly distorted and some ideas are explained not enough deep.

Of course, I can't admit the situation with some translations of Russian literature as acceptable:
"The reason English-speaking readers can barely tell the difference between Tolstoy and Dostoevsky is that they aren't reading the prose of either one. They're reading Constance Garnett." (Joseph Brodsky)
I hope, nowadays there are a lot of good translations and the situation typical for the begining of the XX century is gone.

Deb, if the government is to regulate business, who's to regulate the government? As history shows, there's no nastier beast than political forces in power running wild... Free world should remain free no matter if that's little or big money you have.

As known from the automatic control theory, the process of regulation is based on a closed loop or reverse feedback between the regulating controller and the regulated process. I think, the same theory can be applied to human society as well. So, all we need is to establish working and reliable reverse feedbacks between governments and businesses and between people and governments, for it is for people to regulate governments and it is the main idea of democracy.

Originally Posted by dtrq

Набоков вусмерть разругался со старым другом Эдмудом Уилсоном, который опубликовал разгромную статью на его перевод (The Strange Case of Pushkin and Nabokov by Edmund Wilson | The New York Review of Books).

Thanks for the amazing text. It was hard, but I've managed it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

For Russians though, the situation is so extreme! From Socialism and communist ideology for real, via "wild East" years and cowboy capitalism, to Putin's Russia of nationalism, conservative values and cronyist economy. One of the many things that makes Russia so fascinating. And probably the whole journey is also what makes Russians so cynical.

Actually, I can't say for all Russians of course, but some of us are just trying to live here. Falling in love, getting married, giving a birth to children, building houses, giving children education and doing other boring things. Putin and Yeltsin, democracy and communism, Lenin and Marx, Cthulhu and Luke Skywalker: it's just a background noise that affects us more or less.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Actually, I can't say for all Russians of course, but some of us are just trying to live here. Falling in love, getting married, giving a birth to children, building houses, giving children education and doing other boring things. Putin and Yeltsin, democracy and communism, Lenin and Marx, Cthulhu and Luke Skywalker: it's just a background noise that affects us more or less.

Sounds like the majority of people everywhere. As Shakespeare wrote "Hercules will do as he may, still cats will meow and dogs have their day."

Originally Posted by SergeMak

As known from the automatic control theory, the process of regulation is based on a closed loop or reverse feedback between the regulating controller and the regulated process. I think, the same theory can be applied to human society as well. So, all we need is to establish working and reliable reverse feedbacks between governments and businesses and between people and governments, for it is for people to regulate governments and it is the main idea of democracy.

In practice, most governments are very unwilling to listen to anybody but themselves. But your idea is totally correct - it's just from time to time, people and businesses have to remind the government who's really in charge here. When people stop fearing the government, the government starts fearing people. =))

Originally Posted by Paul G.

I know it. I meant they do it for themselves. Like teenagers joke behind somebody's back.

Ah -- yes, I agree that it could have been CIA employees making a joke to each other.

I think it's equally possible, however, that:

1. Nobody in the CIA's computer-animation department spoke Russian;
2. Nobody in the CIA's Soviet department knew anything about video production;
3. The two departments could not take the trouble of writing a one-sentence memo to each other, and the badly-animated "УЫВЦФБГДД" television was the result.

(Similarly, Hilary's "Peregruzka" button was, I believe, a problem of non-communication between two different offices in the State Department -- and not an attempt to make fun of Russians.)

Originally Posted by Deborski

It was all made up, Eric! That was not really Soviet propaganda. It was a White House briefing full of faked stuff.

It wasn't ALL made up or faked. Arguably, it was unfairly selective -- in that more positive discussions of the US in the Soviet media were omitted -- but a "lie of omission" is different from "fakery."

As for Soviet propaganda about America, didn't you ever read Крокодил?
...
This one, for example about sums up the corruption in DC...

Speaking of "lies of admission," I'd say that the Krokodil cartoon is only half-accurate, insofar as it does portray the real problem of corporate cronyism (as represented by the captions "Льготы монополиям" and "для миллионеров").

However, corporate lobbying does not nearly begin to "sum up" the varieties of corruption in DC. Corruption also occurs in populist lobbies representing blue-collar labor and various minority groups; and pork-barrel spending that creates jobs in low-income states by building bridges may be called "corruption" if it turns out that the bridges weren't really needed. But corruption of that type had analogous forms that existed in Soviet politics -- so it was "safer" for Krokodil to focus on a type of political corruption that was more or less unique to America and other Western countries, namely, multi-billion-dollar corporations "buying" special favors from the government.

In short, the Krokodil cartoon is a lot more accurate than, say, the National Lampoon cartoon that portrayed sex-starved Soviet women lining up to buy dildo-vibrators that were made of reinforced concrete and powered by diesel motors. But, at the same time, the Krokodil cartoon presents a somewhat oversimplified picture of the swamp that is DC -- and, more to the point, it simplifies the picture in a "Долой капитализм!" way that reflects the political biases of the editors. (Or, perhaps, the political biases of the bosses who signed the editors' paychecks!).

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

(Similarly, Hilary's "Peregruzka" button was, I believe, a problem of non-communication between two different offices in the State Department -- and not an attempt to make fun of Russians.)

Yes, it was funny and confusing at the same time. I don't think they did it for "making fun of Russians". I guess it could be sort of an "amusing sabotage", if we consider a soft version of the so-called "conspiracy theory". So, some people could make the wrong translation specially (to expose Hilary, for instance). In fact, they were right: Russian-American relations really look like "Peregruzka" now. Symbolism showed us that metaphysics exists.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

It wasn't ALL made up or faked. Arguably, it was unfairly selective -- in that more positive discussions of the US in the Soviet media were omitted -- but a "lie of omission" is different from "fakery."



Speaking of "lies of admission," I'd say that the Krokodil cartoon is at least half-accurate in so far as it portrays the problem of corporate cronyism (as represented by the captions "Льготы монополиям" and "для миллионеров"). However, corporate lobbying does not nearly begin to "sum up" the varieties of corruption in DC. Corruption also occurs in populist lobbies representing blue-collar labor and various minority groups; and pork-barrel spending that creates jobs in low-income states by building bridges may be called "corruption" if it turns out that the bridges weren't really needed.

Fair enough Throbert. Fake may have been a hasty choice of words. But it certainly was not accurate in any case. I think we can agree that it was biased, unfair and misleading, perhaps.

As for the cartoon, it can only convey so much of the complex problems in DC. It is only a cartoon and cartoons generally make a very simple, but strong point. I felt that one did its job. We can agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Deborski

In American movies, Russians seem to fit into one of three categories:

1. Evil Russky
2. Cannon Fodder
3. Comic Relief

You forgot:

4. Klingons


American scientists predict that by the 24th century, Space-Russians will have evolved
to look like this, and their women will still be sexy, yet dangerous.

Seriously, I think Deborski is mostly right about stereotyping of Soviets and Russians in American media, but there are a few notable exceptions.

The most surprising exception that I can recall from my own childhood is from a two-part episode of The Bionic Woman, in which the super-heroine Jaime Sommers (whose legs and right arm are robotic) teams with a Soviet spy to stop a planet-destroying "Doomsday Device" that is controlled by a super-intelligent talking computer called ALEX 7000. (Obviously, there was some ripping-off of Kubrick going on here!) Here's a six-minute summary of the 2-hour telefilm, which originally aired in 1977:



What's surprising is that even though The Bionic Woman was a rather silly sci-fi series that was popular with children and teenagers, the writers gave some dignity and complexity to the Soviet character, "Dmitri Muskov". Just like the American heroine Jaime Sommers, he loves his own country and basically believes in his country's system of government, while at the same time admitting that there are flaws in the system.

At the end of the story -- after the computer has been shut down -- Dmitri tells Jaime that he has a professional obligation to tell the Soviet government about her "bionic" super-abilities. And Jaime -- who works for a fictionalized version of the CIA -- lies to the US Army and CIA in order to give the Soviet agent time to escape.

In short, it presents a Soviet spy and an American spy who each recognize the other as "an honorable rival," not as a de-humanized villain. This was a bit unusual for American television, but all the more unusual, perhaps, because the show was certainly not aimed at a highly intellectual audience -- it was popular entertainment primarily for teenagers.

(It's also important to note the date of this made-for-TV movie -- 1977 came after the success of the SALT I / ОСВ-I talks, but before the Soviet movement into Afghanistan in December 1979.)

What's surprising is that even though The Bionic Woman was a rather silly sci-fi series that was popular with children and teenagers, the writers gave some dignity and complexity to the Soviet character, "Dmitri Muskov". Just like the American heroine Jaime Sommers, he loves his own country and basically believes in his country's system of government, while at the same time admitting that there are flaws in the system.

There is a new series on TV now called "The Americans." I was afraid to watch it at first because I thought it might be more клюква but when I saw it I was pleasantly surprised. The story is about a pair of KGB agents deep undercover in the US where they pretend to be a typical suburban couple while simultaneously gathering intel on the US. I was impressed with how they write it though. The story is actually sympathetic to them and portrays them as very three dimensional people who are patriotic Soviet citizens trying to do the right thing and often stuck in impossible situations. The show even explores a lot of the paranoia the CIA had about Russians, and a lot of the Cold War fears on both sides. Plus, there is a lot of jammin' 80's music! There has only been one season so far, but I think a second season is in production now.



http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2149175/