Thread: The crisis in Syria

Originally Posted by Deborski

Just spoke with my friend from Syria - and she says she fears any US military involvement will only trigger retaliation from terrorists, and the Syrian people will pay the price. I think she is exactly right.

Good enough she acknowledges it's Assad's forces who are the terrorists. I would say any military action in that region brings on a lot of responsibility, it just has to have absolute success, which is very hard to guarantee under current conditions, that is probably why it was delayed.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Good enough she acknowledges it's Assad's forces who are the terrorists. I would say any military action in that region brings on a lot of responsibility, it just has to have absolute success, which is very hard to guarantee under current conditions, that is probably why it was delayed.

You read into her statement. She didn't acknowledge that at all. BOTH SIDES have done horrific things. Neither side is innocent.

Originally Posted by Deborski

You read into her statement. She didn't acknowledge that at all. BOTH SIDES have done horrific things. Neither side is innocent.

In my view, that conflict has 3 parties (not 2):

1. Dictatorial thugs
2. Rebels
3. External thugs and terrorists pretending to be rebels

From this perspective, I'd say #2 is innocent, while the other 2 totally aren't. As for me reading into her statement, I mean which party is most likely going to be aggressive about U.S. military intervention?

President Obama is preparing to address the nation regarding Syria. He is not expected to announce a military strike.

I can hear people protesting in the background.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/la...ke-a-point.ece

Originally Posted by Eric C.

In my view, that conflict has 3 parties (not 2):

1. Dictatorial thugs
2. Rebels
3. External thugs and terrorists pretending to be rebels

From this perspective, I'd say #2 is innocent, while the other 2 totally aren't. As for me reading into her statement, I mean which party is most likely going to be aggressive about U.S. military intervention?

Gross oversimplification. There are also thousands of people who are not involved in either side.

Listening to Obama speaking now:

He states that he personally favors "limited" military involvement (airstrikes), however, he is going to wait for a vote from Congress, following a debate when Congress reconvenes on September 9th.

Additional coverage of Obama's presser here:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...nst-syria?lite

Originally Posted by Eric C.

By coincidence, those were (and some still are) the nastiest dictatorships in the region.

Have you been to Detroit? There's so many innocent people dying and so many houses being torched! When is Assad going to bomb America and save those people? Or should it be Italy?
Or how about they fix their own problems.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

In my view, that conflict has 3 parties (not 2):

1. Dictatorial thugs
2. Rebels
3. External thugs and terrorists pretending to be rebels

From this perspective, I'd say #2 is innocent, while the other 2 totally aren't. As for me reading into her statement, I mean which party is most likely going to be aggressive about U.S. military intervention?

I'm confused. Are you talking about the cannibals, the ones that were slaughtering civilians, or the ones that launched the bomb at the civilian bus?
Maybe it was just bad photographers cause i totally did miss the angel wings on the rebels or anyone else fighting over there.

"We the people of the United States..." - So when did the people turn into only 9% of the people? I totally did miss that too.
Well, Obama finally backed off. I hope he backs all the way off to Altzheimers and leaves the White House so we can have a real President.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Have you been to Detroit? There's so many innocent people dying and so many houses being torched! When is Assad going to bomb America and save those people? Or should it be Italy?
Or how about they fix their own problems.

It's completely different in the U.S. The easiest example I can think of is, how about you being put behind the bars for saying there are some miserable households in Detroit? Would you be saying it's a free country then? That's what that dictatorship used to be like (and now it's not coz it's too busy with the war) - not only did it make people's lives miserable, but it also told them HOW to live and WHAT to think.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

I'm confused. Are you talking about the cannibals, the ones that were slaughtering civilians, or the ones that launched the bomb at the civilian bus?
Maybe it was just bad photographers cause i totally did miss the angel wings on the rebels or anyone else fighting over there.

Did you notice the third side I mentioned? It pretty much includes all of the categories you're talking about. They're as nasty as the dictatorial regime thugs are, I agree.

If you're a rebel fighting for a better way for your country, fighting against the oppressive system, why in the world would you turn into a cannibal or attack civilians??? That doesn't even make sense.

And by the way, I'm no big fan of Obama either.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

It's completely different in the U.S. The easiest example I can think of is, how about you being put behind the bars for saying there are some miserable households in Detroit? Would you be saying it's a free country then? That's what that dictatorship used to be like (and now it's not coz it's too busy with the war) - not only did it make people's lives miserable, but it also told them HOW to live and WHAT to think.

Yeah, compared to the US they were oppressed. But not if you compare Syria to a lot of countries in Africa or the rest of the Middle East. Nothing's perfect but those are their countries.
They should Not try to fix Detroit. And we should Not try to fix Syria. It's like making a patch for a game when you don't even know how it was coded. Just look at Iraq. Total Fail.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Did you notice the third side I mentioned? It pretty much includes all of the categories you're talking about. They're as nasty as the dictatorial regime thugs are, I agree.
If you're a rebel fighting for a better way for your country, fighting against the oppressive system, why in the world would you turn into a cannibal or attack civilians??? That doesn't even make sense.
And by the way, I'm no big fan of Obama either.

Sorry. I was trying to add stuff to mom's shopping list and I totally did miss that. Yeah, #3 was what I was talking about. They are .
But that makes it even more difficult to help anyone cause now nobody knows which are the Syrian people and which are the terrorists. So if we did the strikes then who will be in power? That's easy. The other thugs - the terrorists. no win/no win.

About Obama: Congress already cautioned him that he could be "Aiding The Enemy" (terrorists) with his actions. That would be a serious offense against his own country and an extreme dishonor.
Some people claim that he wasn't even an American when he was elected. But that's still not important. When someone lives in a country, they should never do anything that threatens that country. That's the worst dishonor there is.
People can complain and even fight to change their country. But if they think they need to threaten it, then it's time for them to find another country to believe in - That's the honorable thing.
But "Aiding The Enemy" is an epic red line that I hope Obama doesn't try to cross. And, imo, the "collateral damage" thing doesn't count if it aids the enemy.

Tbh, I agree with his healthcare plans but that's all. So yeah, I'm not a huge Obama fan, lol. And he's weak. Very weak. Not because he won't stand up and risk helping the terrorists in Syria. No, he's just weak and he never stands up for anything he says he believes in. Well, at least he did stand up for the healthcare thing so that's cool. Doesn't help us since we already had healthcare plans but it will help people who can't afford it.

Personally, I have to say I admired Obama's restraint today. Dubya would have shot from the hip and ordered a unilateral strike without waiting for Congress. At least Obama had the temperance to wait for Congress to at least vote on it. Perhaps this will give the UN enough time to complete their investigation and find forensic evidence to prove who is actually responsible for the chemical weapons attack, since both sides are pointing fingers. I'd like to see some solid evidence rather then secondhand information from supposedly "trustworthy" sources. Congress reconvenes September 9th.

Regardless, I will still not favor military involvement personally. I'd rather see us exhaust all diplomatic means first, and considering that the US has been postponing and canceling every meeting Russia tries to arrange, I'd say we have a long way to go before we should be reaching for the gun.

People get all hysterical about chemical weapons, but the sickening truth is that thousands of people have already died in Syria from bullets, shells, starvation, sepsis and god knows what else. The time to have helped was two years ago when all of this began, before the rebel movement was co-opted by terrorist factions. The rebels pleaded for a no-fly zone. It was not granted. And so, here we are.

I will certainly be calling my representatives to tell them I oppose all military intervention no matter what words they want to use to "soften" it. "Surgical," "intervention," "humanitarian" - why not just call a spade a spade and say BOMBING and KILLING people, because that is what air strikes are for.

I think we all know what George Carlin would say if he was still around.

Around a year and a half ago, one Syrian (presumably) fellow asked me to translate a bit of news report text into Russian. The text was telling about the atrocities going on in Syria at that moment. I have to say I was truly shocked and that was when I decided I would follow the situation in that area closer. I would like to bring that text (and the translation) down here, accompanied by two warnings - first, it's pretty long (and more than that, there are 2 untranslated parts), and as it's said, READER DISCRETION IS ADVISED!

Here it is (the translated part for now), as of March 2012


There have been over 630 documented reports of casualties of children, and over 9200 total deaths. There are also many accounts of babies being killed with video evidence. 420 of these deaths are documented cases of death from torture. These estimates of course are only a small fraction compared to actual death count as only cases with evidence are documented. 65,000 have been reported as missing, 35,000 injured, and 220,000 incarcerated.

A number of adult detainees and security force members who had defected and who were interviewed confirmed the presence and torture of child detainees in facilities across Syria. “Samih,” a former adult detainee held in a political security facility in Latakia, said that children were subjected to worse treatment than adults, including sexual abuse more so than adults. Many died in detention. There are many accounts of mutilated bodies being sent to parents to prolong their fear to resist.

“Hossam,” age 13, said that security forces detained him and a relative, also 13, in May 2011 and tortured him for three days at a military security branch. Every so often they would open our cell door and yell at us and beat us. They said, “You pigs, you want freedom?” They interrogated me by myself. They asked, “Who is your god?” And I said, “Allah.” Then they electrocuted me on my stomach, with a prod. I fell unconscious. When they interrogated me the second time, they beat me and electrocuted me again. The third time they had some pliers, and they pulled out my toenail. They said, “Remember this saying, always keep it in mind: We take both kids and adults, and we kill them both.” I started to cry, and they returned me to the cell.

We were 70 to 75 people in a group cell that was 3 by 3 meters. We slept with our knees to our chests. Some people had broken hands, legs, their heads were swollen. There were 15 and 16 year old kids in the cell with us, six or seven of them with their fingernails pulled, their faces beaten. They treat the kids even worse than the adults. There is torture, but there is also rape for the children more so for boys. We would see them when the guards brought them back to the cell, it’s indescribable, you can’t talk about it. One boy came into the cell bleeding from behind. He couldn’t walk. It was something they just did to the boys. We would cry for them.

Children also said that security forces kept them in overcrowded group cells, deprived of food and water. Ala’a said, “There were 75 people in a very small cell, 4 by 6 meters. The cell was not even fit for animals, the smell of blood was unbearable. I spent 10 days there. We had to take turns standing and sitting to sleep. How did they give us water? They’d take a bottle, maybe 1.5 liters, and spray it in the air, everyone would open their mouths and try to catch a few drops. For food, everyone had half a piece of bread.” The detainees reported buses of people arriving daily for torture. Interviews with defecting army officers also confirm accounts by detainees. An army officer said that they had recieved orders to arrest any male over the age of 14 or 15 in large-scale raids.

Some of the arrests took place in schools. “Nazih”, a 17 year old girl from Tal Kalakh, said that in May 2011, security forces entered her school and arrested all the boys in her class, after questioning them about the anti-regime slogans painted on the school walls. Children, some as young as 13, reported that officers kept them in solitary confinement, severely beat and electrocuted them, burned them with cigarettes, and left them to dangle from metal handcuffs for hours at a time, centimeters above the floor. Detention facilities where children reported being tortured include: the military security detention center in Homs.

​ Most deaths are from security forces being ordered to fire into crowds. They have done this so much they do it regardless of if they are ordered or not. More shockingly they target funerals where crowds of family and friends gather in mourning carrying the bodies of the dead in caskets before they are buried. There are so many cases of this that rights group don't document them. If wounded are taken to the hospital they are denied usually because security forces monitor hospitals and will even kill doctors for treating protesters. Many have been turned to military hospitals and they wont treat opposition. They will just give the body back with more holes.



Задокументировано более 630 жертв среди детей и более 9200 смертей всего. Также много случаев убийств новорожденных с видео подтверждением. 420 случаев этих смертей - документированные случаи смерти от пыток. Эти оценки, конечно, только малая часть по сравнению с реальным количеством смертей, так как документируются только случаи с подтверждением. Сообщается о 65,000 пропавших, 35,000 раненых, и 220,000 помещенных в тюрьмы.

Определенное количество задержанных взрослых граждан и сотрудников сил безопасности которые перешли на другую сторону и были опрошены подтвердило наличие пыток над задержанными детьми в лагерях по всей Сирии. "Samih", бывший задержанный, удерживаемый в политическом лагере в Латакии, сказал что дети подвергались худшему обращению чем взрослые, включая сексуальное насилие в большем количестве чем над взрослыми. Многие погибли в заключении. Есть много случаев посылки изувеченных тел родителям, чтобы усилить их страх к сопротивлению.

"Hossam," 13 лет, сказал что силы безопасности задержали его и его родственника, тоже 13 лет, в Мае 2011 и пытали его три дня в отделении военной безопасности. Довольно часто они открывали дверь камеры, и кричали на нас и били нас. Они
говорили, "Вы свиньи хотите свободы?" Они допрашивали меня обо мне. Они спросили, "Кто твой Бог?" И я сказал, "Аллах." Потом они ударили меня электрошоком в живот. Я потерял сознание. Когда они допрашивали меня второй раз, они снова били меня и ударяли электрошоком. В третий раз у них были какие-то щипцы, и они выдернули мне ноготь на ноге. Они сказали, "Запомни это, и всегда помни: Мы забираем и взрослых и детей, и убиваем и тех и других." Я начал плакать, и они вернули меня в камеру.

Нас было 70-75 человек в групповой камере размером 3 на 3 метра. Мы спали прижав колени к груди. У некоторых людей были сломаны руки, ноги, их головы опухли. С нами в камере были 15- и 16-летние, шесть или семь из них с вырванными ногтями, разбитыми лицами. Они обращаются с детьми даже хуже чем со взрослыми. Существуют пытки, но существуют также изнасилования детей, особенно мальчиков. Мы видели их когда охранники вернули их в камеру, это неописуемо, невозможно говорить об этом. Один подросток пришел в камеру истекая кровью сзади. Он не мог идти. Это было то, что они делали с мальчиками. Мы плачем за них.

Дети также говорили что силы безопасности держали их в переполненных групповых камерах, лишенных пищи и воды. Ala’a говорил, "В очень маленькой камере, 4 на 6 метров, было 75 человек. Камера была непригодна даже для животных, запах крови был непереносим. Я провел там 10 дней. Нам приходилось спать по очереди. Как они давали нам воду? Они брали бутылку, наверное 1.5-литровую, и распрыскивали ее в воздух, каждый должен был открыть рот и пытаться поймать хоть несколько капель. В качестве еды, у каждого была половина куска хлеба." Задержанные сообщали об автобусах с людьми, прибывающих для пыток каждый день. Интервью с перешедшими на другую сторону армейскими офицерами также подтверждают слова задержанных. Один офицер сказал что они получили приказ арестовывать любое лицо мужского пола в возрасте свыше 14 или 15 лет в ходе масштабных рейдов.

Некоторые аресты проводились в школах. “Nazih”, 17-летняя девушка из Тал Калах, сказала, что в Мае 2011 силы безопасности ворвались в ее школу и арестовали всех мальчиков в ее классе, после опрашивания их об анти-режимных слоганах, нарисованных на школьных стенах. Дети, некоторые не старше 13 лет, сообщили что офицеры держали их в одиночном заключении, жестоко избивали их и били электрошоком, прижигали сигаретами, и оставляли болтаться на металлических наручниках часами, в сантиметрах от пола. Лагеря для задержанных, в которых, по словам детей, их пытали, включают: центр военной безопасности в Хомсе.

Большинство жертв происходит из-за приказов силам безопасности стрелять по толпе. Они делали это так много раз, они делают это вне зависимости от того, приказано им или нет. Более ужасно, они открывают огонь по похоронным процессиям, где толпы семьи и друзей собираются в трауре, неся гробы с телами погибших до их похорон. Таких случаев так много что правозащитники не документируют их. Если раненых привозят в больницу, им обычно отказывают, так как силы безопасности следят за больницами и могут даже убить докторов за лечение протестующих. Многие обращались в военные госпитали, и те не лечат оппозицию. Они только вернут тело обратно с большим количеством дыр.

I would also like to share a testimonial written by a victim of torture. I warn readers, this account is extremely graphic.

******

During investigations, I was threatened with rape, attacks on my family in Saudi Arabia, my daughter being kidnapped, and my murder - assassination - by their spies in the Middle East if I went back to Saudi Arabia.

They went to a detainee and put his head in the toilet. The toilets in Camp Delta are iron, Turkish-style toilets and then they flushed his head down the toilet until he almost died. They went to a detainee and started beating his head against the toilet rim until he lost consciousness and he could not see for more than 10 hours.

One detainee, called Abdul Aziz Al-Masri, was ill and was asleep in the hospital. These soldiers went and beat him very badly in the hospital in front of the doctors and nurses. His injuries were excessive and caused his spine to break. He is now hemiplegic. They are now trying to operate on him but he is refusing out of fear that they will play with his back and make it worse rather than make it better as their operations often do. These kinds of incidents happen often. They would make sending them to the detainees an excuse for incidents in which we would suffer extensive injuries, severe disfiguration and fractures as there was no one monitoring or following up their actions. Rather, their officers and officials gave them the orders.

At the end of 2003, a major incident happened to me in the investigation room. The soldiers took me to the investigation room and the investigator - who I only ever saw on this one occasion - had a Koran in his hand when he entered the room. He put it on the table and started talking and raving. Then he asked some soldiers to come in so some soldiers came. This investigator had brought the American and Israeli flags in with him. He then ordered the soldiers to wrap the flags around me tightly and then he took the Koran, threw it on the floor and damaged it with his shoe. Then he exposed his penis and urinated on it. He said a lot of things to me, such as, "this is a holy war between the star of David and the cross against the crescent" and "the whole world will submit to us and if any one doesn't submit to us.

****

This is the testimony of Jumah al-Dossari, which he wrote in July 2005 in the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay naval base, Cuba and was printed by Amnesty International.

I am not posting this to in any way invalidate or lessen the torture you just described Eric. But my point is that this happens all around the world, and in the United States too.

Does that mean some other country should commence missile strikes on Washington DC?

Former President Jimmy Carter today stated that we should urgently engage in peace talks and try to find a diplomatic solution. I am inclined to agree. I do not believe that launching missiles into Syria is going to stop atrocities going on. In fact, it could even escalate the bloodshed.

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...#ixzz2dYvaK72S

The Carter Center urged against a military response to possible chemical weapons use without a U.N. mandate, saying the action would be “illegal under international law and unlikely to alter the course of the war.”

“Instead, all should seek to leverage the consensus among the entire international community, including Russia and Iran, condemning the use of chemical weapons in Syria and bringing under U.N. oversight the country’s stockpile of such weapons,” the center said in the statement.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Former President Jimmy Carter today stated that we should urgently engage in peace talks and try to find a diplomatic solution. I am inclined to agree. I do not believe that launching missiles into Syria is going to stop atrocities going on. In fact, it could even escalate the bloodshed.

Jimmy Carter calls for Syria peace summit - James Arkin - POLITICO.com

I agree. A limited surgical strike (okay, blasting people to pieces with bombs - since they don't always hit their military targets) would just add more fear and anger. And where does all that fear and anger go? Into the civil war so, more torture and more deaths.
Oh wait! There is Israel and Israel is an American ally. So... unless Obama is hoping they'll attack Israel...

Human bones found at infamous Florida reform school | The Raw Story

Another example of horrendous torture of children in the US. This concerns the infamous Dozier Reform School for Boys in Florida. So far, more than 50 bodies have been found, of young boys who were so badly beaten and tortured, under the auspices of the school's "corporal punishment program," that they died. The school never reported their deaths, it just covered everything up, and buried the boys on school grounds.

This was only just discovered in 2011 and was just in the news again today because more bodies were found.

In the short time since the school closed in 2011, survivors and relatives of Dozier residents have come forward with stories about students there being subjected to sexual abuse, regular beatings and deaths that were either not explained or outright suspicious in nature.

Torture, brutality, atrocities, murder of children... is not limited to Syria, unfortunately. It is a sickening and disgusting state of humanity.




http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...n-florida?lite

Some "large-bone fragments" were found on the first day of digging, Wells said. They were human bones, he added, but it was impossible to know if they came from any of the teenaged boys who were housed at Dozier during its infamous 111-year existence. The school was closed in mid-2011.

The bones will be examined in laboratories at the University of South Florida and the University of North Texas, as part of a program funded by the U.S. Department of Justice and state of Florida.

Americans are merely teenagers who unexpectedly became adults. That's why there are so many problems in the world.
This is a very good example of such behavior:

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Americans are merely teenagers who unexpectedly became adults. That's why there are so many problems in the world.
This is a very good example of such behavior:

In what way does a picture of Obama with his foot on a desk prove anything.....?



Maybe this picture proves that Putin is an evil warmonger who loves guns?

I could just as easily rush to judgement. Certainly a lot of my countrymen have decided that Putin is evil based on propaganda and nonsense.

What is the point? I am sorry you despise Americans so much, Paul. You also seem to place a lot of value on stereotypes. I guess if I were to judge Russians by stereotypes, I would think you all wear fur hats, wrestle bears and play the balalaika. I might also believe that all Russians are unemotional and cruel - and "that's why there are so many problems in the world."

Fortunately, I do not think like that.

I am going to ignore your further attempts at trolling.

Perhaps we can glean more understanding from this photo. Many of America's soldiers feel the same way. Our military does not support Obama's plans for attacking Syria. Even the top brass have spoken out against it.

https://www.indybay.org/newsitems/20...1/18742429.php

I got this article directly from the reporter who wrote it. He asserts that US-backed rebels want to impose Sharia law on women in Syria, and that female Kurdish soldiers are combating them.

The U.S. arms the anti-woman religious fanatics of Syria, and is preparing direct military air strikes to help bring them to power. Meanwhile, these same people list the secular and pro-woman Kurdish Democratic Union Party (PYD) as a terrorist organization. The PYD is labeled a terrorist organization by the governments of Turkey, the United States, the European Union, and by NATO. Yet, the true terrorists are the U.S. backed Islamists in Syria.

Despite appeals for help from the Kurdish PYD to Amnesty International in exposing the crimes of the U.S. backed Islamists, Amnesty International is instead advising the U.S. on how best to carry out impending U.S. bombing raids on Syria. This reflects a far rightward turn the organization has taken in openly supporting U.S. imperialist wars.

The U.S. has long opposed the national rights of the Kurdish people, aiding Saddam Hussein as he murdered 90,000 Kurds in Iraq with poison gas and giving Turkey the military aid to murder tens of thousands of Kurds. In Syria, the U.S. prefers the Islamic puppets it is trying to groom for power within the rebel forces as an attempt at reliable allies in a post-secular Syria that will privatize the oil in the Kurdish oil rich region. They probably see the communist influenced PYD as less likely to sell-out Kurdish control of their own resources to world imperialist oil interests than the Islamist rebels they hope to place in power.

This article is one of the most in-depth I have seen on the entire Syrian situation and bears thorough reading by all who wish to be fully informed on the crisis.



Photo: August 28, 2013, Kurdish women in Ras Al-Ayn, liberated Kurdish Syria, battling against U.S. backed al Qaeda insurgents. Everywhere the U.S. backed rebels have come to power they have imposed anti-woman Sharia (Islamic) law and they have carried out genocide against Kurds, Christians, Alawites, and Shi’ites. [Photo credit Harold Doornbos and Jenan Moussa / FP]

Originally Posted by Deborski

In what way does a picture of Obama with his foot on a desk prove anything.....?

It proves that Obama is a little boy who plays cowboy in father's private office. That's why he's in a doghouse now. And Americans too.

Maybe this picture proves that Putin is an evil warmonger who loves guns?

There are a lot of pictures where Obama is shooting. It doesn't matter.

"Russia Sharply Steps Up Criticism of US Over Syria" - Washington Post

- The Washington Post

From this article:

“I would like to address Obama as a Nobel Peace Prize laureate: Before using force in Syria, it would be good to think about future casualties,” Putin told Russian news agencies in Vladivostok during a tour of the country’s flood-stricken Far East.

“Russia is urging you to think twice before making a decision on an operation in Syria,” he said.