Thread: Pale Blue Dot - бледная, синяя точка - по-русски перевод.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Well, as for me, I would run up and lick the colorless mass with my tongue. Or roll over and show it my stomach. No, actually I would not do anything because any action could be completely misinterpreted. But then, so could doing nothing. If/when we meet alien life, it's a guarantee there will be misunderstandings! Maybe I would just start singing at it. Music is based on mathematics, so maybe that would be perceived as communication. What do you think? I figure it would be an even playing field with everything having an equal chance of being perceived wrong, so I may as well sing a song.

I think if you behave like a domestic dog, that might give a wrong impression of the humanity either. And if you start singing some of Celine Dione songs, the extraterrestrial might feel like a good opportunity to dive into the north Atlantic to fetch some extra precious stones. Off the top of my head, you need to stay still, not run or hide, and not smile, but slowly wave your straight hands palms forward until the other being would do something. Then, you slowly try to imitate what it did until it tries to imitate what you do. If you get to the point the being is trying to imitate you, you've got 90% of the success in the first contact because the being is considerate of you and recognizes you're sentient. The rest depends on what happens next, which is up to you at that point. And what happens if you don't get that 90%? That's why you need to get yourself familiar with at least some concepts of the exopsychology.

Originally Posted by Deborski

Oh that is very true! But learning Russian really messes with my head. When I speak Russian for extended periods, like I did when I lived in Russia, my English grammar gets messed up and I start speaking English "wrong." Does that happen to you?

Well, my native language is Russian and I live in an English-speaking country, so I'm still working on improving my English. I think I still speak Russian right most of the time.

Originally Posted by Deborski

1. I am not so convinced that the aggressive political forms always win.
2. Instead, it seems that the aggressive, power-hungry types of people are the ones who rise to leadership [...]

Alright, so you said it yourself, in the personal competition, the most competitive win. The same I think is true with the political forms, even though the "aggressiveness" is much more complex. That is probably a large [off] topic on its own.

Originally Posted by Deborski

It seems to me that the "war" between aggression and cooperation never ends, but continues, round after round, into infinity. [...] Maybe you would think I am naive, and maybe I am, but I will never agree that aggression and killing is superior to cooperation and caring for each other.

That is called "the balance" and I think it's one of the fundamental aspects of the Universe. One of the ways we can avoid war with the extraterrestrials is to become useful to them. That is an open question though as the way they might want us to become useful might not be acceptable by us. And so the politics starts ...

Originally Posted by Deborski

Perhaps. I don't mind space hotels. But I think there ought to be a way for the "99%" to benefit from such an experience, and not solely the uber-wealthy.

It's coming. Inevitably. Not very long ago, only the very rich could enjoy being passengers on the sea ships...

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I think if you behave like a domestic dog, that might give a wrong impression of the humanity either.

Well, I was thinking more of behaving like a cat, which I consider more intelligent and evolved than a dog - as well as cleaner and more attractive - but I digress.

And if you start singing some of Celine Dione songs, the extraterrestrial might feel like a good opportunity to dive into the north Atlantic to fetch some extra precious stones.

Hmmmm, well, you haven't heard me sing

Off the top of my head, you need to stay still, not run or hide, and not smile, but slowly wave your straight hands palms forward until the other being would do something.

Ah, but if this alien being has no limbs - and thus no concept of limbs - how would such a gesture be interpreted? The alien is not going to "grok"* the human-cultural implications of palms up versus palms down.

Then, you slowly try to imitate what it did until it tries to imitate what you do. If you get to the point the being is trying to imitate you, you've got 90% of the success in the first contact because the being is considerate of you and recognizes you're sentient. The rest depends on what happens next, which is up to you at that point. And what happens if you don't get that 90%?

Imitating is the best idea. But what if imitating is, for all practical purposes, impossible? The creature is globular in shape, right? How would a human body imitate it's movements?

That's why you need to get yourself familiar with at least some concepts of the exopsychology.

And where would I do that? No one has met an alien yet (except George W. Bush and look what the experience did to him!!) so where would be an encyclopedia documenting the various "concepts of the exopsychology"? Can I find it at the library...?

Well, my native language is Russian and I live in an English-speaking country, so I'm still working on improving my English. I think I still speak Russian right most of the time.

Well, I have a tendency to imitate the people I am around (in which case perhaps my success with the alien is better assured). I can't help myself, it's completely intuitive and I cannot even explain it. I mimic their accents and pronunciation without even intending to, often. So after I was immersed in Russian for two years, it actually took me a few months to speak English normally again. Every person is different, of course. My husband could not pronounce Russian words correctly if his life depended on it. If he were to learn Russian, he would have a strong accent and it is unlikely that he would experience the sort of mental changes I experienced. I cannot even describe it, really.

Alright, so you said it yourself, in the personal competition, the most competitive win. The same I think is true with the political forms, even though the "aggressiveness" is much more complex. That is probably a large [off] topic on its own.

That is called "the balance" and I think it's one of the fundamental aspects of the Universe. One of the ways we can avoid war with the extraterrestrials is to become useful to them. That is an open question though as the way they might want us to become useful might not be acceptable by us. And so the politics starts ...

Yes, that would be a very tricky situation. We would not want to be useful as food, for example. I wonder what humans would be able to provide that an alien race would need?

It's coming. Inevitably. Not very long ago, only the very rich could enjoy being passengers on the sea ships...

That is a good point!


*grok
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok

Originally Posted by Deborski

Well, I was thinking more of behaving like a cat, which I consider more intelligent and evolved than a dog - as well as cleaner and more attractive - but I digress.

See, even a terrestrial crocodile like myself made a mistake, what would you expect from the extraterrestrial?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Ah, but if this alien being has no limbs - and thus no concept of limbs - how would such a gesture be interpreted? The alien is not going to "grok"* the human-cultural implications of palms up versus palms down. Imitating is the best idea. But what if imitating is, for all practical purposes, impossible? The creature is globular in shape, right? How would a human body imitate it's movements?

Ah, very true. B-U-T!! The exopsychology makes some assumptions, one of them being that the extraterrestrials made some observations of the Earth before landing. They know more or less we have limbs and if they are interested in contact, they will try to imitate the limbs. Or they can do some other movement we might imitate, like moving side to side, jumping or rolling, shaking, or making a series of sounds. As for the palms, the open palms are better than the clenched palms, the up and down or side movement is better than the front-back movement, etc. We can't do perfect by knowing nothing about the other race, but we can do the best we can. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by Deborski

And where would I do that? No one has met an alien yet (except George W. Bush and look what the experience did to him!!) so where would be an encyclopedia documenting the various "concepts of the exopsychology"? Can I find it at the library...?

I found some sources online, but maybe some books exist too. It's mostly the bits and pieces I remember from the variety of places, maybe I should write a book of my own?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yes, that would be a very tricky situation. We would not want to be useful as food, for example. I wonder what humans would be able to provide that an alien race would need?

Exactly. We don't know anything about that. But if they don't need anything at all, why did they visit Earth on the first place?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

See, even a terrestrial crocodile like myself made a mistake, what would you expect from the extraterrestrial?


Ah, very true. B-U-T!! The exopsychology makes some assumptions, one of them being that the extraterrestrials made some observations of the Earth before landing. They know more or less we have limbs and if they are interested in contact, they will try to imitate the limbs. Or they can do some other movement we might imitate, like moving side to side, jumping or rolling, shaking, or making a series of sounds. As for the palms, the open palms are better than the clenched palms, the up and down or side movement is better than the front-back movement, etc. We can't do perfect by knowing nothing about the other race, but we can do the best we can. Does it make sense?


I found some sources online, but maybe some books exist too. It's mostly the bits and pieces I remember from the variety of places, maybe I should write a book of my own?


Exactly. We don't know anything about that. But if they don't need anything at all, why did they visit Earth on the first place?

I think you are right about attempting to imitate the aliens. We would have to try, but it might easily be misunderstood.

And I look forward to seeing your links

Originally Posted by Deborski

I think you are right about attempting to imitate the aliens. We would have to try, but it might easily be misunderstood.

You're right, the chance of misunderstanding is close to 100%. But, the extraterrestrials should also recognize that, it's a two-players' game. "We know that they know that we don't know" kind of thing. The biggest challenge is to demonstrate we're sentient and not aggressive. How would you define what's sentient? To the best of my knowledge, our philosophy cannot give the exhausting answer. So far, the easiest practical thing is to let the aliens recognize that we recognize them and we have a will. After all, they have landed on our planet, and so they should have the desire to meet us. Probably, the safest way for them would be a remote contact. And the contact is perceived through the senses which let us perceive the reality which for us is a combination of the fluctuations of the electromagnetic field. We should expect the ETs to communicate through those channels, so if they chose the visual spectrum that might not be a real alien, but a hologram of one, or a hologram of a human, etc. For a practical contactor, that should not make much difference. So, yeah, imitate and try to make the alien imitate you. Then, I think, comes the step of demonstrating our civilization is technical. That means, you should make a straight line and a circle with your finger on the sand. Then, pick up a small object and do the same. This way you demonstrate our civilization uses tools and abstract concepts to manipulate the reality.