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Ой, я этого не подозревал. Правда, мне уже кто-то здесь сказал, что от меня «веет стариной», но до такой степени... Надо как-нибудь поправить это. Я вот уже купил себе сборник повестей Булгакова. Откладывал чтение, считая, что лучше начать с самого начала, но, оказывается, уже пора приниматься за него! Спасибо, Оля, что предупредила.Originally Posted by Оля
So, Johanna, you see you were right indeed. Оля just told me that I sound very much like some guy from 2 centuries ago. Looks like I'll have to change my plan of getting into Russian literature in chronological order.
Не надо поправлять. Это круто. (It's cool.) Это ОЧЕНЬ круто!Ой, я этого не подозревал. Правда, мне уже кто-то здесь сказал, что от меня «веет стариной», но до такой степени... Надо как-нибудь поправить это.
"Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?
[quote=it-ogo]Не надо поправлять. Это круто. (It's cool.) Это ОЧЕНЬ круто!Ой, я этого не подозревал. Правда, мне уже кто-то здесь сказал, что от меня «веет стариной», но до такой степени... Надо как-нибудь поправить это.
+1. Ага, я тоже так считаю!
Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!
Oh, was that your plan?
It's a very admirable & noble plan...
All I've noticed is that you can write quite long texts in Russian and only get very few corrections. Very envious.
I agree with the others that there is something cool about speaking like a 19th century person. But I guess it's not convenient in everyday situations though: At the supermarket, at work, etc. Maybe you should introduce some modern films and litterature just to balance it a bit. Torrents.ru.
I am taking the exact opposite approach to you... I am making it too easy and convenient for myself. The reason is that I am *really* worried that I will find it too hard, or get bored and lose my motivation. So I am trying to learn in fun and interesting way. As a result I have yet to seriously try to tackle the grammar. So far I have only tried to learn from examples. I recently forced myself to start learning the principles of general grammar (forgot it....) in preparation for my inevitable confrontation with the Russian grammar.... But because I've been making it too easy I haven't made as much progress as I would have liked to.
I have tried to vary my study methods, from flashcards, to films and a standard foreign language text book. I've even done "Pimsleur"... am just finishing it. The pace is unbelievably slow.... I considering whether to do the Assimil "La russe sans peine" as well, for good measure... Apparently it's a little bit more challenging. Anyone done it?
Hmm, I for one don't think Zubr's Russian is old-fashioned... On the contrary it's very sophisticated, quite easy and there seem to be very few mistakes. I mean, considering how difficult Russian grammar is, it's definitely a huge achievement to be able to decline and conjugate all words correctly, and to express oneself with considerable ease. So, way to go, Zubr! You are our "отличник".
Russian also didn't really change all that much since Pushkin -- I mean, if you compare modern English and the English in which Jane Austen wrote -- there's a huge difference there, it seems like every third word she uses acquired a different meaning since then, or went out of use altogether.
The "Вздумай я" expression is, I grant you, a bit old-fashioned but educated Russians who read a lot will often use some such expressions -- if only for fun. Like "ибо" or the "-с" particle.
But I agree that reading modern lit and watching films is crucial because only then you can appreciate the modern spoken language.
That's the right approach, Johanne. And I see you're making progress, too.
Alice: One can't believe impossible things.
The Queen: I dare say you haven't had much practice. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
Oh, I made a typically Russian grammatical error!That's the right approach, Johanne. And I see you're making progress, too.I am turning Russian, lol!
I left out the definite article in the sentence quoted above. (it's just a typo.) But can you see which article I missed, and where it should be? Plus, the sentence probably sounds better if "ways" and plural is used instead of singular.
As Rockzmom says, everybody should try to use the best possible language here, rather than being sloppy.
As for my "fun and interesting studies",I decided to watch a bit of "Stirlitz" and posted my review in the Videos section.
My apologies. Why on Earth would one want to give up the pure and heavenly sounding classical Russian language for some brutally cut and shallowly substantiated 'modern Russian'? I like the way it sounds, "возьми я..". Actually I miss the fidelity and delicateness of older written and spoken Russian. I believe that if most of the native speakers abandoned their heritage for jargon and borrowed computer/marketing/PR terminology, it would be foreingers who would teach us how to speak the wonderful language of our classical writers.Zubr, тебе надо срочно читать современную русскую литературу или смотреть современные фильмы. Ты пишешь на устаревшем русском, как будто это абзац из Лермонтова или Пушкина. Это выглядит довольно странно, и думаю, тебе надо об этом сказать.
I'm at work now so no Youtube for me. But I'll watch the clip when I get home and post my comments.
BTW, here is a bit of info about the origin of the word Dutch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietsch
Oh, I didn't notice the typo. I'd say an indefinite artcile would be OK in this sentence:Oh, I made a typically Russian grammatical error!
I left out the definite article in the sentence quoted above. (it's just a typo.) But can you see which article I missed, and where it should be? Plus, the sentence probably sounds better if "ways" and plural is used instead of singular.
So I am trying to learn in a fun and interesting way.
Alice: One can't believe impossible things.
The Queen: I dare say you haven't had much practice. When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
К чему этот пафос?
Lermontov's or Pushkin's language could be perfect, but nowadays people speak a bit different. That's not bad or good, that's reality.
In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.
Ok, so about the video of the guy speaking Russian, French, Dutch and a bunch of other languages: wow! I just watched his Dutch video and I have to say I was very impressed. There are some very minor grammatical mistakes but he speaks incredibly freely. His accent still strikes me as foreign but that is because he is speaking with a (Northern) Dutch accent rather than a Flemish accent. But his accent, even though it's not the accent I'm used to, is very good. Well, maybe someone from the Netherlands would disagree but to me he sounds almost like a real "голландец".
Starrysky, that's exactly the error. Olya, you made a grammar mistake that all Americans make as a rule, haha! Namely, you used a verb when you should have used an adverb. (Hope I got the grammatical terminology right... )
For some reason Americans always drop (ignore) the "-ly" ending, which is what Olya did too, just this once. Not sure why it's dropped... But it has to be wrong.. Or? I don't know! But to a British person it sounds like bad grammar.nowadays people speak a bit differentLY.
To get back to the topic of "snobbism": If regional dialects don't exist and there are no "class-differences" in pronounciation, then there is less scope for snobbism.
When I was using "Livemocha.com" for a while earlier this year I was really suspicious to the pronounciation tips from everyone other than people from Moscow/StP.... How silly! I had no idea that everyone has the same dialect.
Some people might think that accents are charming or whatever.. But not having them is really practical and fair; in the UK having the "wrong" accent is a serious handicap. Sweden has some incredibly ugly accents which just sound dreadful to everyone but those who speak the same way.
Haha, I just realised, "Luca" speaks SWEDISH too.. But it doesn't seem to be one of his better langauges. He's talking relatively comprehensibly for a while about his appreciation of Swedish women (naturally!!!) but after that he starts rambling and doesn't make a lot of sense.
But the question is; Is he just being a "parrot" repeating back the phases from courses such as Pimsleur? Can he really read a paper in Russian or get a regular job where he has to speak Dutch or Swedish?
I guess some people collect languages like others collect stamps etc. Like a hobby. I see it as purely a practical matter; wanting to speak to people, work with people, read things that otherwise would not be accesible.
Learning English was not a choice for me. It was an absolute necessity. People who fail English in school cannot go to university in large parts of Europe. Luckily for me I had plenty of exposure to English in my teens, so it was not as hard as it could have been. I haven't managed to learn any other languages to a seriously useful level.
Мне очень понравился вопрос, поэтому коротко тоже отвечу
К чему такой выпендрёж, - "пафос" это такое старомодное и книжное слово!Никто так не говорит.
Просто это всё зависит от того с кем и о чём идёт разговор. И в некоторых случаях именно такой, чуть старомодный русский, - самый правильный выбор, если, конечно, он хорошо у вас получается.
И вообще, меня вот скажем, при изучении французского дико бесит, что, например, passé simple запихивают куда-то в конец учебников и справочников (про нормальное учебное аудио я уже забыл даже и думать), потому как "никто теперь так не говорит". При том, что меня интересует в первую очередь литература XIX века (где как раз "современное" прошедшее время используют редко), а не возможность запросто болтать с парижанами.Приходится извращаться...
As for the original topic... I don't know. Here in Riga, Latvians can be quite snobbish to unaccented Russian-speakers. But overall, having a foreign accent is OK, as long as you're understandable. In central Riga you can even just speak English. (don't expect good English in reply though...)
I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them.Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.
This was interesting to learn about. I have never met anybody from the Caucasus area or from Central Asia... But have met lots and lots of Baltic people. I think many of them actually like the Russian language and literature a lot.
The resentment might just be a temporary thing. When they leave their area and come to England or Scandinavia they are very happy to use their Russian skills and talk about it. I have also heard Baltic people speak warmly about some sides of the USSR. Both English and Scandinavian people are impressed that they are bilingual with Russian and their own language. I have heard of Scandinavian people who could speak a little bit Russian and used it in the Baltic states because people they met couldn't speak English.
In the long run it will definitely be beneficial for the Baltic states to be bilingual countries. It's a positive thing and I think they ought to make the most of it. Some of the most successful countries in Western Europe are bilingual: Switzerland, Belgium, Finland....
Interesting. How do you know which language to address people in in Riga? I heard it's about 50-50 in Riga between native Latvian speakers and native Russian speakers.
Honestly I`m not quite sure how to describe it. The first few phrases can be a mix of two languages, and then it somehow settles into one both speakers are comfortable with. Something like...
- Мне пожалуйста, хот-дог и Кока-колу.
- Tās būs lats un deviņdesmit pieci... (Это будет один лат девяносто пять)
Siņepes, kečups?
After that I usually reply in Latvian and it continues like that from there, but if I'm distreacted,I can say "с горчицей" or, worse, make some gross error like "ar sinepes, lūdzu" (instead of the correct one, "ar siņepiem." Or was that the correct one? Why Latvians decided that mustard has to be always-plural?
Sort of like that. That's how we do it In Riga while doing important business, like selling something.
Somewhere in rural southeast Latvia it could be some local jargon no one else speaks (Ko tu броду по manu огороду? Ceļa рядом nau?) Or if the place is more monoethnic, you WILL get funny looks and jeers for speaking anything but local Latvian (or Russian or Latgalian )...
Sorry for any bad English...
I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them.
Actually, Belgium is trilingual: Dutch, French and German. And Switzerland even has 4 official languages (German, French, Italian and Romanche).
I wasn't aware Finland is bilingual. (thank you Wikipedia for educating me once again)
I am a foreigner but you asked interesting questions, so I'll make some observations:
I met some people from Kazahkstan, they spoke Russian very well... but they looked Russian to me, so well - ok why did I even write this?
Russian is a very difficult language I think for most foreigners... I'd place it as a 3.5/5 or perhaps even 4/5 on the difficulty scale of European languages. One thing Russian has going for it is that the language is quite clear... the speech isn't sloppy like say Polish or French (at least those languages sound sloppy to my ears) or utterly alien and mystifying like Hungarian. So at least (with some exposure), you should be able to at least pick out the words - even if you have no idea what they mean.
Well ethnic Russians there certainly seem to
Uzbeks (I'm guessing they are uzbeks since they sell the uzbek tasty bread), sound absolutely horrible... much worse than Arabs.
It is rare, especially if that Westerner is American. Many Americans living in Russia/Ukraine either have no interest in learning Russian, or if they do - it does not come to them easily (e.g. after 3 years of living, the -better- ones are just being able to hold conversation - even having had tutors for at least a year and being immersed for 3+ years - and still have absolutely horrible accents).
I'm sure there are some Americans that speak it well and with softer Accents but really the only ones I personally met that spoke it well were in the military. Americans have great difficulty even just pronouncing the language. They (as a rule) usually cannot seem to pronounce 2 consonants together (which is a common feature of Russian) nor can they do a rolling 'r'
There are some westerners that can converse "proficiently", but they still have quite noticeable accents usually.
There are 2 caveats to what I wrote... 1) I don't come in contact with too many foreigners living for a long time in Russia on Business and 2) same goes for students from Western countries... so I don't know about these groups, I suspect there must be some among them that can speak Russian quite well.
I did meet an Englishman who I was impressed by. He never studied it, merely lived in Ukraine a while and is married to a Russian speaker. But his is merely functional Russian, he was able to get his car fixed in front of me (explain the problem to a taxi driver, get taxi drive to drive him to mechanic, get mechanic to fix the problem) without any help from me, so I was impressed. But will he understand the evening news on TV, definitely no.
About Americans.. you can see why it is so difficult for them simply by listening to Russians speak English. I can safely say that in the US & Canada, the European nationality that has the most difficulty with English - that I've come across - is easily the Russians. Some Russians adults (of course kids are another story) will lose their accent in time, but it quite rare and usually those came over in their 20s. They also have a hell of a time with English grammar. Especially "a" and "the". The reason Russians have such problems compared to other Europeans is that much of English is just that much more foreign to them, and same goes for English speakers in relation to the Russian language. Even simple things often in Russian do not have a 1:1 mapping to English... like many of the prepositions.
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