Thread: It's on the(a) table.

Originally Posted by paulb

Second, the problem with googling such a short expression is that you catch the words being used in other ways as well: "We're fighting them there, so we don't have to fight them here."

The same can be said for the expression you Googled... here is #20
"Mar 10, 2008 ... If so where? Are there any websites with bbw supersized clothing that are available in Mazatlan that you know of? Thank you..."

Clearly this is NOT related to what we are discussing. Do you have a problem with this result?

Originally Posted by paulb

Originally Posted by sperk

Originally Posted by paulb

Results 1 - 10 of about 29,300,000 for "where are there any". (0.29 seconds)

Perhaps twenty nine million is not "most people", but it sure is a lot.

Googling for the fragment "where are there any" doesn't make "where are there any books?" a valid question.

The grammaticality of the expression can't depend on what the object is. The expression could be incorrect by being inappropriate for some particular context, but it doesn't break any rules and I wouldn't think twice if I heard it being used. It is a bit informal, but it means exactly the same thing as "Where can I find any books ...", an expression no one would object to.

To repeat, spoken and written English are two vastly different things. It would be silly to say that the sort of spoken English everyone uses is "incorrect", even if it looks strange when written down.

My point is to help learners, if you think walking into a bookstore and saying "where are there any books on geometry" is a good way to ask a question, by all means do so. But I don't see the point of encouraging learners to use odd expressions the fuller implications of which they don't understand, that is, by asking "where are there any books on geometry," you will sound rude, ignorant or both.
The OP's question "where are there any books?" is still not valid as is different from "where are there any books on..."

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Originally Posted by paulb

Second, the problem with googling such a short expression is that you catch the words being used in other ways as well: "We're fighting them there, so we don't have to fight them here."

The same can be said for the expression you Googled... here is #20
"Mar 10, 2008 ... If so where? Are there any websites with bbw supersized clothing that are available in Mazatlan that you know of? Thank you..."

Clearly this is NOT related to what we are discussing. Do you have a problem with this result?

I'm not sure what your question means there. Of course google turns up all sorts of things other than what you want. Most of the results under "them there" are variants of the old "there's gold in them there hills" saying. The results from "Where is there any" and "where are there any" show a wide variety of uses, a great number of which follow the form we are talking about.

I think the bigger point is, if some expression X is used relatively often by native speakers of English, then X is a legitimate part of the language. It might be something very formal, something very informal, something rude, whatever. You might want to tell students they shouldn't use such an expression themselves for a variety of reasons. But such an expression is not a mistake along the lines of "Where are books?" or "Where is books?"

Originally Posted by sperk

My point is to help learners, if you think walking into a bookstore and saying "where are there any books on geometry" is a good way to ask a question, by all means do so. But I don't see the point of encouraging learners to use odd expressions the fuller implications of which they don't understand, that is, by asking "where are there any books on geometry," you will sound rude, ignorant or both.

You are entitled to your opinion on that. It might be an interesting experiment for you to ask several of your friends what they think about exactly that question: Where are there any books on geometry?

If you do, let me know the results. So far my wife said she thought it sounded ok, but I'll ask a few other folks as well.

rockzmom:
So, your question about "Where are there any books?" while yes, it COULD be said by some people, it is technically not correct and not used by MOST people. You would need to add/subtract something to the sentence to complete it and make YOU not sound like a foreigner, hillbilly, teen rapper or something. Unless of course, that is what you are going for

"Where are there books around here?"
"I don't see any books around here!"
"What are you talking about? Where are there any books [around] here?"

Does this help?

Yes, it does. At least I have the confirmation that the structure "where is/are there..." is not completely unacceptable.
Thanks.

rockzmom:
Selexin.. you also slightly changed your sentence..

You started off with:

Selexin писал(а):
Can we say: "Where are any books?"
What is a possible reply?

and changed it to:

Selexin писал(а):
In their replies about the question "where are there any books?"

It's not exactly so. I started off with asking if the following sentences are correct:

Where are there any pay fishing lakes in Indiana ?
Where are there any Raves in Atlanta or around ?
Where are there any pig farms in colchester?

As a matter of fact there was a task from a grammar book in which one had to choose the correct question out of several proposed options so that it can be matched with the reply:
"There are some books on the table."
The options were as follows:

a) Where are some books?
b) Where are there some books?
c) Where are any books?
d) Where are there any books?
e) Where are books?
f) Where are the books?

Here is my suggestion:
a), b), c), e) are incorrect for the reason of plain logic.
f) correct, but irrelevant to the given reply.
The only possible option here, though it sounds awkward too, seems to be the d).
That's why I started musing on this.
Straighten me up if I'm wrong.

sperk:
But I don't see the point of encouraging learners to use odd expressions the fuller implications of which they don't understand, that is, by asking "where are there any books on geometry," you will sound rude, ignorant or both.

That's what I need - to understand all the implications of the structure in question as it is found to be in use by native speakers, and I think I'm starting to catch on to it after having read your posts.
Thanks again for your kind comments.

Originally Posted by Selexin

As a matter of fact there was a task from a grammar book in which one had to choose the correct question out of several proposed options so that it can be matched with the reply:
"There are some books on the table."
The options were as follows:

a) Where are some books?
b) Where are there some books?
c) Where are any books?
d) Where are there any books?
e) Where are books?
f) Where are the books?

a c and e are all bad. b and c are really the same thing. f could be used sometimes. If I brought home a bag of books and then I couldn't find them, I might ask my wife "Where are the books?" If she didn't know which books I was talking about, she could use answer f.

Searching for help again.

It's not uncommon to omit the first auxiliary verb in questions like:
Did you go to school yesterday?
Have you been there before

so, which one of the following is correct if did is omitted?

You go to school yesterday?
You went to school yesterday?

Thanks in advance.

Originally Posted by Selexin

You went to school yesterday?

This is correct although it's not the same as "did you go to school yesterday?" They're used in different situations.

You go to school yesterday?
Is this correct too?

Originally Posted by Selexin

You go to school yesterday?
Is this correct too?

Depends on how you define "correct". Will you hear it in a normal dialogue? I suppose so, the 'did' can be dropped if properly implied just like I dropped the initial 'that' in the first sentence of this reply even though it is the subject of the sentence. But you won't find it as an acceptable grammatical variant in any grammar book.

Robin

Can you help me resolve my confusion?:

O Henry, Cabbages and Kings:

- Looks like a fast sailer. What's her tonnage?"
- "Search me!" said Smith. "I don't know what she weighs in at.

What's the meaning and implication of that "in at" thing?

Originally Posted by Selexin

Can you help me resolve my confusion?:

O Henry, Cabbages and Kings:

- Looks like a fast sailer. What's her tonnage?"
- "Search me!" said Smith. "I don't know what she weighs in at.

What's the meaning and implication of that "in at" thing?

"Weigh in" is a phrasal verb which can mean to measure the weight of a boxer, wrestler, etc. before the fight or to have a specific weight as determined by such weighing.
E.g.:
"Sam Brown weighed in at 200 pounds."
"What did he weigh in at"?
I have never heard people use this phrase when speaking about ships, but the basic meaning must be the same.

As with the self-banished Geddie, it was nothing less than the artful
smiles of lovely woman that had driven Johnny Atwood to the desperate
expedient of accepting office under a despised Federal Government
so that he might go far, far away and never see again the false, fair
face that had wrecked his young life.

How can the absence of the indefinite article before lovely woman be justified ?

Then down the coast, tacking close to shore, slowly swam a little
sloop, white-winged like some snowy sea fowl.

Why there's no "the" before "shore"

Originally Posted by Selexin

As with the self-banished Geddie, it was nothing less than the artful
smiles of lovely woman that had driven Johnny Atwood to the desperate
expedient of accepting office under a despised Federal Government
so that he might go far, far away and never see again the false, fair
face that had wrecked his young life.

How can the absence of the indefinite article before lovely woman be justified ?
[quote:3rbzeoi8]Then down the coast, tacking close to shore, slowly swam a little
sloop, white-winged like some snowy sea fowl.

Why there's no "the" before "shore"[/quote:3rbzeoi8]

"Lovely woman" here doesn't refer to a specific woman but rather to all lovely women, so no article is needed; it's like a collective noun. Both Geddie and Johnny had been driven, in a sense, by the whole body of lovely womanhood, even though the actual woman was an individual.
Using shore without an article is a peculiarity of that word, very common in the spoken language. It sounds very east coast US to me. People even say "I'm going down the shore" rather than "...to the shore."