Thread: It's on the(a) table.

Originally Posted by Selexin

Here are some questions I've run across on answers.yahoo.com/

Where are there any pay fishing lakes in Indiana ?‎
Where are there any Raves in Atlanta or around ?
Where are there any pig farms in colchester?

Doesn't it seem odd to use existential there in questions with where?
What do you think of it?

The questions seem a bit clumsy because the asker is really asking two questions: does something exist and if so, where is it. You could also say: Are there any pay fishing lakes in Indiana, and if so, where are they?

Originally Posted by Selexin

Here are some questions I've run across on answers.yahoo.com/

Where are there any pay fishing lakes in Indiana ?‎
Where are there any Raves in Atlanta or around ?
Where are there any pig farms in colchester?

Doesn't it seem odd to use existential there in questions with where?
What do you think of it?

If you left out the 'where' the answer would be 'yes' or 'no', and if you left out the 'there' the answer to the question is contained in the location given in the question - all the questions are therefore correctly phrased, they ask for both existence and location. However, you could rephrase them as, for instance, 'where would I find any Raves in Atlanta?' or somesuch.

Robin

Sperk, bitpicker, thanks for your replies.
I got another one to ask, though.
Would it be natural for a native(!) speaker to come up with a question like: "Where are there any books?"

Originally Posted by Selexin

Sperk, bitpicker, thanks for your replies.
I got another one to ask, though.
Would it be natural for a native(!) speaker to come up with a question like: "Where are there any books?"

I can't think of a situation in which that question would arise, in fact it doesn't make any sense.

Can we say: "Where are any books?"
What is a possible reply?

Originally Posted by Selexin

Can we say: "Where are any books?"
What is a possible reply?

No, it's incorrect.

Originally Posted by Selexin

Would it be natural for a native(!) speaker to come up with a question like: "Where are there any books?"

As much as I don't follow the rules of English, I could not figure out a way to use your sentence So, I too agree with the others. You also asked for the reply to your possible question.. so here are some ways of how we might say that question and the reply if you were in a library or maybe a book store. Some are more formal than others Hope this helps!:

Example 1:
Selexin: Hi, I'm looking for the Maximum Ride books.
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes. Do you have any of those books?
Clerk: Yes, there over in the Young Adult Fiction area.

Example 2:
Selexin: Hi, I'm looking for the Maximum Ride books.
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes. Do you have any?
Clerk: Yes, there over in the Young Adult Fiction area.

Example 3:
Selexin: Hi, I'm looking for the Maximum Ride books.
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes. Do you have those books?
Clerk: Yes, there over in the Young Adult Fiction area.

Example 4:
Selexin: Hi, I'm looking for the Maximum Ride books.
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes. Do you carry them and can you tell me where they are located?
Clerk: Yes we do and they are over in the Young Adult Fiction area.

Example 5:
Selexin: Hi, I'm looking for the Maximum Ride books.
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes. Do you have any in stock and if so, where I can find them?
Clerk: Yes we do and they are over in the Young Adult Fiction area.

Example 6:
Selexin: Hi, where are the Maximum Ride books?
Clerk: The series by James Patterson?
Selexin: Yes.
Clerk: They are over in the Young Adult Fiction area

Example 7:
Selexin: Hi, where can I find books about Russia?
Clerk: Do you mean travel or history?

Example 8:
Selexin: Hi, where are books about Russia?
Clerk: Do you mean travel or history?

Originally Posted by Selexin

Sperk, bitpicker, thanks for your replies.
I got another one to ask, though.
Would it be natural for a native(!) speaker to come up with a question like: "Where are there any books?"

English speakers use expressions like that.

As sperk says, this is combining two questions: Is there any X? and Where is X?

I can make an example out of your sentence:

Mother: I asked you to pick up all those books off the floor!
Son: I already did.
Mother: I don't believe you.
Son: Where are there any books on the floor?
Mother goes to other room.
Mother: There are three books over in the corner.

I can honestly say I have had conversations just like that

Another question like this I hear often:

Where is there a bathroom around here/in this building?

Socially, it can be considered rude to ask a very short question.

Why are you here? (rude)
Would you mind telling me what brought you here? (polite)

So, asking "where is there a bathroom here?" might be a little more polite than "where is the bathroom?"

In their replies about the question "where are there any books?"
Sperk worte:

I can't think of a situation in which that question would arise, in fact it doesn't make any sense.

Paulb wrote:

English speakers use expressions like that.

I'm getting even more puzzled. The opinions split among natives...
Well, consider the situation:
A: "We need to change the bulb in the sconce"
B: "I can't reach it, it hangs too high"
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Where are there any books?"
What do you think?

Originally Posted by Selexin

In their replies about the question "where are there any books?"
Sperk worte:

I can't think of a situation in which that question would arise, in fact it doesn't make any sense.

Paulb wrote:
[quote:2gfrt1qj]English speakers use expressions like that.

I'm getting even more puzzled. The opinions split among natives...
Well, consider the situation:
A: "We need to change the bulb in the sconce"
B: "I can't reach it, it hangs too high"
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Where are there any books?"
What do you think?[/quote:2gfrt1qj]

Lots of things we say in conversation sound very strange if you take away the context. Many times when I see a transcript of a conversation it is hard for me to believe people would talk like that.

I don't know how it is in Russian, but written English and spoken English are VERY different. This is just one example.

Paulb, so, is the phrase "Where are there any books?" possible in a conversation like this:

A: "We need to change the bulb in the sconce"
B: "I can't reach it, it hangs too high"
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Where are there any books?"
?

Originally Posted by Selexin

Paulb, so, is the phrase "Where are there any books?" possible in a conversation like this:

A: "We need to change the bulb in the sconce"
B: "I can't reach it, it hangs too high"
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Where are there any books?"
?

In PaulB's example the question "Where are there any books on the floor?" is not a normal question but a challenge in the form of a rhetorical question, defying the mother to find books on the floor. The kid is not requesting information or expecting the mother to tell him where any books are located; he knows there aren't any. In your example, you are asking a traditional question and expect an answer so you should say something like:
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Are there any books around here?"

Originally Posted by Selexin

I'm getting even more puzzled. The opinions split among natives...
Well, consider the situation:
A: "We need to change the bulb in the sconce"
B: "I can't reach it, it hangs too high"
A: "Use books or something to stand on"
B: "Where are there any books?"
What do you think?

Selexin, there is something you need to remember about "American" native speakers and we have discussed this in other threads. Depending upon where you are from has a lot to do with how you speak and what you may or may not say. Someone raised in the North East, say in the Boston area, will speak very differently from someone in the South, say New Orleans, or as I have posted about North Carolina and the "Queen's English."
An example is "them there." While I would NEVER say that combination of words in a professional setting, I might joking around with my family and friends. "Where did you get them there spuds?" or a famous take on it is "There be gold in them thar hills!"

So, your question about "Where are there any books?" while yes, it COULD be said by some people, it is technically not correct and not used by MOST people. You would need to add/subtract something to the sentence to complete it and make YOU not sound like a foreigner, hillbilly, teen rapper or something. Unless of course, that is what you are going for

"Where are there books around here?"
"I don't see any books around here!"
"What are you talking about? Where are there any books [around] here?"

Does this help?

Originally Posted by rockzmom

as I have posted about the North Carolina and the "Queen's English."

??????



So, your question about "Where are there any books?" while yes, it COULD be said by some people, it is technically not correct and not used by MOST people. [/quote]

Just for the record I completely disagree here. I don't know what rule or principle you think this question violates. Taking the ken Watts approach, aka google, yields this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 29,300,000 for "where are there any". (0.29 seconds)

Perhaps twenty nine million is not "most people", but it sure is a lot.

Originally Posted by paulb

Originally Posted by rockzmom

as I have posted about the North Carolina and the "Queen's English."

??????

Originally Posted by rockzmom

So, your question about "Where are there any books?" while yes, it COULD be said by some people, it is technically not correct and not used by MOST people.

Just for the record I completely disagree here. I don't know what rule or principle you think this question violates. Taking the ken Watts approach, aka google, yields this:

Results 1 - 10 of about 29,300,000 for "where are there any". (0.29 seconds)

Perhaps twenty nine million is not "most people", but it sure is a lot.

Originally Posted by paulb

Originally Posted by rockzmom

as I have posted about the North Carolina and the "Queen's English."

??????

http://masterrussian.net/mforum/view...hp?f=1&t=16947
"A DICTIONARY OF THE QUEEN'S ENGLISH, NORTH CAROLINA" that was published in Raleigh, N.C. by the Travel and Tourism Division, Dept. of Commerce, [between 1978 and 1988]


And you get Results 1 - 10 of about 357,000,000 for them there. (0.24 seconds) does that make "them there" correct or that MOST Americans use this expression???

Originally Posted by paulb

Results 1 - 10 of about 29,300,000 for "where are there any". (0.29 seconds)

Perhaps twenty nine million is not "most people", but it sure is a lot.

Googling for the fragment "where are there any" doesn't make "where are there any books?" a valid question.

Originally Posted by sperk

Originally Posted by paulb

Results 1 - 10 of about 29,300,000 for "where are there any". (0.29 seconds)

Perhaps twenty nine million is not "most people", but it sure is a lot.

Googling for the fragment "where are there any" doesn't make "where are there any books?" a valid question.

The grammaticality of the expression can't depend on what the object is. The expression could be incorrect by being inappropriate for some particular context, but it doesn't break any rules and I wouldn't think twice if I heard it being used. It is a bit informal, but it means exactly the same thing as "Where can I find any books ...", an expression no one would object to.

To repeat, spoken and written English are two vastly different things. It would be silly to say that the sort of spoken English everyone uses is "incorrect", even if it looks strange when written down.

"Them there" is a slightly different matter. First, as a synonym for "those" it is a colloquialism of course. Some people use colloquialisms all the time and some only use them rarely. For students of English it is generally enough to just point out certain expressions as colloquialisms.

Second, the problem with googling such a short expression is that you catch the words being used in other ways as well: "We're fighting them there, so we don't have to fight them here."

Selexin.. you also slightly changed your sentence..

You started off with:

Originally Posted by Selexin

Can we say: "Where are any books?"
What is a possible reply?

and changed it to:

Originally Posted by Selexin

In their replies about the question "where are there any books?"