Thread: Pro or Anti Stalin

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

The people who claim otherwise alike yourself offer nothing of valid historical accounts, artifacts, footage etc. to show otherwise. Only flawd statistics.

Statistics imho the only way for those who wants to count something. You should use statistics or otherwise you can't speak about numbers, just about your emotions. For example, where did you get your "tens millions" figure? Have you counted victims by yourself? There's no doubt that Stalin killed a lot of people, but it doesn't give you any right to get figures from nowhere and to expect that everyone will agree just because "Stalin was a barbarian".

Originally Posted by Alex_Ivanov

Have you counted victims by yourself?

...uh, yes! Yes, I have counted each individual victim...

Anyway, backing up a bit, I think someone took a stab at me because something I posted was statistically inaccurate. Maybe I should clear up what I said...

We're all working on the assumption that Stalin was a pretty 'bad' person. Well, then I say that anything beneficial credited to him would be outweighed by his badness.

Here is an analogy for you, my dear tactics expert: imagine that somebody takes you to a court and says: "hey look, he's a serial killer with his guns and all". You say "prove that I killed anyone first". But the judge says "No, you prove that you did not kill 10 million people."

Originally Posted by bad manners

Here is an analogy for you, my dear tactics expert: imagine that somebody takes you to a court and says: "hey look, he's a serial killer with his guns and all". You say "prove that I killed anyone first". But the judge says "No, you prove that you did not kill 10 million people."

That depends on whether we're reconstructing the trial or making an appeal.

Originally Posted by Friendy

Originally Posted by bad manners

Here is an analogy for you, my dear tactics expert: imagine that somebody takes you to a court and says: "hey look, he's a serial killer with his guns and all". You say "prove that I killed anyone first". But the judge says "No, you prove that you did not kill 10 million people."

That depends on whether we're reconstructing the trial or making an appeal.

That depends on how bent the judge is. He might even have a telephone on his desk with a direct line to the other world from where the ghost of Stalin will call him if he isn't satisfied with the sentence...

Stalin has been tried and convicted for those murders by history for half a century.
It's not a secret. I've already posted all the information you need.
Apparently, you must be in love with him, thus, nothing will convince you of what he did. He was a murder, plain and simple, and he did murder in to those numbers, plain and simple, and their is plenty of historical evidence that he did, plain and simple.
Stalin as a good guy is nothing more then a figment of your own imagination.
Go read the material I posted. Their is plenty in their exposing wear those numbers come from.
I don't even know why I am talking to you. You are fixed on this stupid idea and nothing will seam to change you. Pride can be an ugly thing.
You can just go on with your little game as far as I am concerned and keep living in your fantasy world.

By 1938, Conquest estimates that about 7 million Purge victims were in the labour/death camps, on top of the hundreds of thousands who had been slaughtered outright. In the worst camps, such as those of the Kolyma gold-mining region in the Arctic, the survival rate was just 2 or 3 percent (see the incarceration/death penalty case study).

Here is a pretty accurate figure. Note that this is only the gendercide death toll. It doesn't include the military massacres and other stuff he had going.

Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million


That figure was built on all of the finest and latest historical evidence, leaving a death toll of roughly 20 million.
20 million is allot of people. Their is no good one can do to make up for that evil. Mind you that these are almost all Russians he killed.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Here is a pretty accurate figure. Note that this is only the gendercide death toll. It doesn't include the military massacres and other stuff he had going.

Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million


That figure was built on all of the finest and latest historical evidence, leaving a death toll of roughly 20 million.

One thing contradicts to this "pretty acurate figure" - demography. Show me this 20 million on this graph :

Population of Russia in 20 century.

That has no definitive definition to the death toll, only potential. That shows the population of Russia, not the kill rate. It is not unheard of for populations to increase during genocide. All you need are birth rates, and their was ALLOT of people being born world wide between 1919 and 1950.
Actually, both Stalin and Hitler's rampages are visible in that chart. You can see a big gap their between the late 1930s and 40s, which would have been the time that most of the people in death camps would have been recorded for dead, as well as the Nazi stuff of course, who by them selves couldn't have taken that large of a bite out of the Soviet population. That's around 20% of the entire soviet population, despite the potentially high birth rate!

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Actually, both Stalin and Hitler's rampages are visible in that chart. You can see a big gap their between the late 1930s and 40s, which would have been the time that most of the people in death camps would have been recorded for dead, as well as the Nazi stuff of course, who by them selves couldn't have taken that large of a bite out of the Soviet population. That's around 20% of the entire soviet population, despite the potentially high birth rate!

I don't get it, you're trying to say that Stalin killed more people in Russia than Nazis? I wonder what do you think about how many people were killed by nazis then.

They both killed ALLOT. Both were barbarians.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

They both killed ALLOT. Both were barbarians.

You try to speak by abstract definitions, like your "ALLOT". I see this as a lack of real knowledge, so I don't see any point to discuss, sorry. And don't take it as offence, I'm sure you can discuss guns or something else better. See you later.

There is no good in Stalin, or in such a regime as Stalinistic - Sovyet, and have never been. (or others for that matter) nothing can justify such a terrible soceity, regardless of some common people having things marginally better than in the years following, and to even Discuss the industrializationary ""benefits"" of the Stalin programe is just Disgusting.

By the way, notice the mandatory humorous anecdote above, while still feeling so strongly for this partculary subject...

[quote="Zhenya"]There is no good in Stalin, or in such a regime as Stalinistic - Sovyet, and have never been. (or others for that matter) nothing can justify such a terrible soceity, regardless of some common people having things marginally better than in the years following, and to even Discuss the industrializationary ""benefits"" of the Stalin programe is just Disgusting.
[quote]

I don't defend Stalin, I just want to see discussion full of facts, worth arguments and analysis from different positions, not just list of opinions shrinked to one sentence "this is ABSOLUTELLY BAD, that is ABSOLUTELLY GOOD". The more man knows, the more colors he sees in the situation. If one sees things as white and black only, he should learn more.

You try to speak by abstract definitions, like your "ALLOT". I see this as a lack of real knowledge, so I don't see any point to discuss, sorry. And don't take it as offence, I'm sure you can discuss guns or something else better. See you later.

Apparently, you are either not very familiar with online slang, or are using it for some objective of yours. In addition, to make such judgment of other people, contradicts everything you have claimed yourself to be. In your own alleged prospective, you should be further investigating people.
Clearly, you have no idea who or what kind of person you're talking to, and frankly, at this point in time, neither do I.

I don't defend Stalin, I just want to see discussion full of facts

Then you will never find what you are looking for. History can not be proven beyond the coming of present existence.
Maybe you should go talk with people who specialize in history of Stalin. Their truly is allot to know, I am sure.
I know a guy who specializes in political history, and knows quite a bit on Stalin. I have briefly spoken to him about Stalin. He pretty much stated that Stalin was raised a barbarian and lived as one.
This is not the place for in depth information on this.
Stalin being a barbarian and mass murderer is as well known and determined as is that the .45ACP bullet has a great deal of stopping power.
If you want to know the ballistic science behind the .45ACP, and what makes it so good at taking the fight out of people, then go to a forum who specializes in handguns, and you'll be given all the information you could hope for.
If you want to know the details behind what Stalin did, exactly how the known statistics came to being about his death toll, which are the most accurate etc., then go to a forum that specializes in that subject.
This forum specializes in various Russian stuff.
I specialize in a number of things, firearms being among them, and am quite familiar with some Russian firearms. If you really want me to make a thread, explaining deep details about Makarov pistols and Kalashnakove rifles, I will be more then happy to do so.
Weather or not we will end up with a Stalin expert among us, has yet to be seen. If it happens, I will be right next to you in listening to what he has to say.
Until then, I would suggest finding a forum that specializes in the subject.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

I specialize in a number of things, firearms being among them, and am quite familiar with some Russian firearms. If you really want me to make a thread, explaining deep details about Makarov pistols and Kalashnakove rifles, I will be more then happy to do so.

I come here so rarely that I have no idea what's going on anymore, but could you or one of the other firearms experts please make a thread explaining what a "Kalashnakove" is instead

Very well.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Stalin has been tried and convicted for those murders by history for half a century.
It's not a secret. I've already posted all the information you need.

Your information is laughable. Why should I regard some Canadian tabloid and some half-broken geosite page an accurate source of information? Is that gossip the kind of "trial and conviction by history" you’re talking about? You don't know anything on the subject, you cannot even mention the source of your beliefs -- but I would guess some US military boot camp. In the other thread you mentioned some WMD in Iraq -- when the whole world has known for more than a year that nothing of the kind ever existed -- again I sense the US boot camp indoctrination. You really ought to limit your judgment to your penis extenders, that seems to be the only area you know something about.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Pride can be an ugly thing.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but there does seem to be an inferiority complex involved. Do you believe there is nothing you can be proud of? Oh while we're at that, ignorance is ugly. As a courtesy, I won't even mention your grammatical abilities.

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Arrests, 1937-1938 - about 7 million
Executed - about 1 million
Died in camps - about 2 million
In prison, late 1938 - about 1 million
In camps, late 1938 - about 8 million


That figure was built on all of the finest and latest historical evidence, leaving a death toll of roughly 20 million.

That is total BS. Even Хрущёв who is known to have lied only mentioned 10 million. The actual figures have been given in this thread -- just a few days ago last time. If you don't believe these figures, have a look at Simon Sebag Montefiore's Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar: he gives the same numbers. FYI, this book is the latest and the most accurate source of the information on Stalin; biased, too, but this is as good as it gets these days.

Your information is laughable. Why should I regard some Canadian tabloid and some half-broken geosite page an accurate source of information? Is that gossip the kind of "trial and conviction by history" you’re talking about? You don't know anything on the subject, you cannot even mention the source of your beliefs -- but I would guess some US military boot camp. In the other thread you mentioned some WMD in Iraq -- when the whole world has known for more than a year that nothing of the kind ever existed -- again I sense the US boot camp indoctrination. You really ought to limit your judgment to your penis extenders, that seems to be the only area you know something about.

Alright, you should listen to yourself. What, are you 6 years old?
I've given you plenty of information, while you have provided nothing at all. As I said earlier, you have a locked up mind, and anything you see that does not go hand in hand with what you WANT things to be, you will say the same thing about ( it's not credible, their lying, how can you believe that.
Show that anything you have is more credible. Show me something to provide that Staling is innocent. You talk all this silliness, yet you provide nothing to support your own ideals. So far, you have contributed nothing but bad manners and your own opinion, while myself and everyone else has done the work.
As far as I am concerned, if you like him so much, then by all means, go live under the rule of someone like him.

when the whole world has known for more than a year that nothing of the kind ever existed

This is another tribute to your lack of reason. The whole world to this very day DOES NOT know. Actually, we do know that at some point, Iraq did have WMD, because we gave them to Iraq to fight Iran with and Saddam never provided sufficient evidence that he got rid of them.
This is simply an opinion of yours that their has been no sufficient evidence to ever support. A large portion of the world suspects and thinks that Iraq disarmed prior to the invasion but do not KNOW if they did and that's a FACT!

David Kay, the man Bush sent to find WMDs, would tend to disagree with you:

"Anyone out there holding - as I gather Prime Minister Blair has recently said - the prospect that, in fact, the Iraq Survey Group is going to unmask actual weapons of mass destruction, are really delusional," he said.

"There is nothing there. There is a programme there. There was an intention of Saddam Hussein at some point to reconstitute it.

"There were clearly illegal activities, clear violations of UN Security Council resolutions. We have accumulated that evidence and really have accumulated that evidence to a considerable degree four months ago.

"There are not actual stockpiles of newly produced weapons of mass destruction."

Source:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 778987.stm

Originally Posted by 44 Canon

Show that anything you have is more credible. Show me something to provide that Staling is innocent.

Sure, right after you show that you did not rape and kill that underage boy.

This is another tribute to your lack of reason. The whole world to this very day DOES NOT know.

Yeah, according to Fox News and some other "embedded" brainwashing. Pull your head out of your US military boot camp arse.

A large portion of the world suspects and thinks that Iraq disarmed prior to the invasion but do not KNOW if they did and that's a FACT!

A large portion of the world is completely sure that the USA had no reason whatsoever to attack Iraq, except for its oil resources and W's hatred towards Saddam. The latter was recently relayed quite plainly by Richard Clarke, who said that on 9/11 the first thing that W asked was "is Saddam involved?" Upon hearing "no, it's Al-Qaeda", he said "anyway, search for a Saddam connection".