Thread: О фамилиях

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by TATY

The suffix -ov / -ev, sometimes written as -off, -eff in English means 'of'.

Actually, that is misleading. The -off -eff ending of Russian last names in English (I should say in the latin alphabet) just means that when the Russian family emigrated, they landed in France. In France they transliterate the names with -off instead of -ov. Don't ask me why, they are French!

It's not necesarily always from French. Immigration officers dealing with big groups of arrivals from the Russian Empire often just wrote down what they heard the name as if the paperwork wasn't legible.

Maybe so. I was told that if the name was -off, then most likely the Russian family started their journey in France... in any case, the English 'of' has nothing to do with it!

[quote=VendingMachine][quote=Rtyom]Sj

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Ну и шведы! Конечно, все варяги так делали, а в Исландии и сейчас так делают. В Исландии_нет фамилий (лучше сказать "у исландцев"), только сын/дочь такого-то...

"Того" - это "умом двинулся".
А после "В Исландии" стояла самая что ни на есть английская запятая. В русском в таких случаях запятых нет.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Maybe so. I was told that if the name was -off, then most likely the Russian family started their journey in France... in any case, the English 'of' has nothing to do with it!

The English 'of' does has something to do with it, it has a lot to do with it.

-ов / -ев is a short form possesive ending, which in English translates as of

The surname Sergeyev = "of Sergey" = "Sergey's son" etc.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Ну и Шведы! Конечно, все варяги так делали, и в Исландии так и есть сегодня. В Исландии, у них нет фамилии, только сын/дочь того...

Я об этом впервые узнала из передачи про Бьорк (она тогда первый альбом выпустила). Оч-чень удивлялась (до сих пор удивляюсь). Получается, что почти у всех членов одной семьи разные фамилии!

Да, у нее же фамилия Гудмунздотер!

Originally Posted by TATY

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Maybe so. I was told that if the name was -off, then most likely the Russian family started their journey in France... in any case, the English 'of' has nothing to do with it!

The English 'of' does has something to do with it, it has a lot to do with it.

-ов / -ев is a short form possesive ending, which in English translates as of

The surname Sergeyev = "of Sergey" = "Sergey's son" etc.

Wouldn't it be the same as Johnson, Jackson, Bobson in English?

Originally Posted by Lauratuli

Now I'm confused . If -ev, -ov means "son", what does the ending -ich (ич?) mean?

Well, -ev, -ov don't really mean "son", their grammar function is close to English "of", i.e. tells us that the object belongs to something (in this context to a social group, a family, etc.)

So if the surname is formed from the first name (let's use 'Ivan') + -ev, -ov, it means that this person belongs to Ivan in some way (either he/she is Ivan's child, or more exactly family member, or his serf, etc.).

I

If it's formed from the geographical name + -ev, -ov it means the person was born, lived or became famous in this place.
etc... You got the idea.

'-Ich' is patronymic suffix, and patronymic indeed tells us about identity of one's father (but remember, that surnames ending with -ich are NOT of Russian origin most of the times).

What's about patronymics, there are few standard suffixes to form them:
'-ич', '-ович', '-евич' (-ich, -ovich, evich) for males, and
'-овна', '-евна', '-ична', '-инична' (-ovna, -evna, -ichna, -inichna) for females.

Again, patronymics and last names are not the same! Patronymic is father's first name + appropriate suffix. So full Russian names looks like that:
first name + patronymic + last name.

If we take name Ivan for the base it will look like that: Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov (male).
The girl (Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov's sister, let's call her Anna) will retain family last name and patronymic (they have the same father, obviously), but with 'female' endings and suffixes. So her full name will be:
Anna Ivanovna Ivanova.

PS. Ten most popular surnames in modern Russia - Смирнов, Иванов, Кузнецов, Попов, Соколов, Лебедев, Козлов, Новиков, Морозов, Петров - are formed from the roots: meek (adj.), Ivan, smith, priest, falcon, swan, goat, novice, frost, Pyotr (name, analog of Peter) accordingly.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

'-Ich' is patronymic suffix, and patronymic indeed tells us about identity of one's father (but remember, that surnames ending with -ich are NOT of Russian origin most of the times).

You mean they are of Jewish origin right? But what about Yugoslavia? With Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, it's a common thing, a lot of people, have surenames ending with ICH there.
For example like Mila Jovovich, the famous actress, her surename comes from her father that was a Yugoslavian.

In Russia it considers to be mostley Jewish.

Originally Posted by Remyisme

You mean they are of Jewish origin right? But what about Yugoslavia? With Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, it's a common thing, a lot of people, have surenames ending with ICH there.
For example like Mila Jovovich, the famous actress, her surename comes from her father that was a Yugoslavian.
In Russia it considers to be mostley Jewish.

I didn't mean Jews or anybody else. I meant exactly what I said - this ending is uncommon for Russian surnames. Jews, Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Ukrainians, etc. are NOT Russians, right? And Mila Jovovich is not Russian either.

PS. I'm not talking here about Russian citizens, since there are about 100 different nationalities and ethnic groups living in Russia.

However Mila does speak Russian!

Originally Posted by Remyisme

Wouldn't it be the same as Johnson, Jackson, Bobson in English?

Не совсем. Johnson это точнее перевести как Иванович. Только такие фамилии больше у сербов/хорватов приняты, чем у русских.

"Иванов" двояко можно трактовать
1. Чей сын/потомок.
2. Чей холоп.

А "Иванович" только как
1. Чей сын
У сербов/хорватов -ич значит примерно то же самое, только ударение может не туда падать.

У поляков/белоруссов/украинцев, где оно всегда на предпоследнем слоге, только вот значение суффикса не совсем такое.

Originally Posted by TATY

The English 'of' does has something to do with it, it has a lot to do with it.

-ов / -ев is a short form possesive ending, which in English translates as of

The surname Sergeyev = "of Sergey" = "Sergey's son" etc.

I was merely reacting to your claim that in "-off -eff" in English meant 'of' because of the similarity (and that is why they are translated like that).

In any case, Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeyovich, yep, but Sergeyev might not even have a great grandfather called Sergey!

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by TATY

The English 'of' does has something to do with it, it has a lot to do with it.

-ов / -ев is a short form possesive ending, which in English translates as of

The surname Sergeyev = "of Sergey" = "Sergey's son" etc.

I was merely reacting to your claim that in "-off -eff" in English meant 'of' because of the similarity (and that is why they are translated like that).

In any case, Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeyovich, yep, but Sergeyev might not even have a great grandfather called Sergey!

Well, technically, it does mean Sergey's son. In this case Sergeyev means the descendant of Sergey. The thing is that it doesn't literally mean, that if your last name is Sergeyev, than your own father's name is Sergey, the point is that the one who stared your genaration, your family roots, started probably from a man that was called Sergey. So his children were already called Sons of Sergey. but their own name in the same time is not Sergey, this is only the name of their genaration, their family.

Originally Posted by Remyisme

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

In any case, Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeyovich, yep, but Sergeyev might not even have a great grandfather called Sergey!

Well, technically, it does mean Sergey's son. In this case Sergeyev means the descendant of Sergey. [...] the point is that the one who stared your genaration, your family roots, started probably from a man that was called Sergey.

kalinka_vinnie is right. Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeev CAN mean 'Sergey's son', but it also can mean 'Sergey's serf' or something else. And serfs are definitely not sons of their master.

Likewise, my friend Ivan's father is Dmitrij and his grandfather is Vsevolodya - or something to that nature.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Originally Posted by Remyisme

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

In any case, Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeyovich, yep, but Sergeyev might not even have a great grandfather called Sergey!

Well, technically, it does mean Sergey's son. In this case Sergeyev means the descendant of Sergey. [...] the point is that the one who stared your genaration, your family roots, started probably from a man that was called Sergey.

kalinka_vinnie is right. Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeev CAN mean 'Sergey's son', but it also can mean 'Sergey's serf' or something else. And serfs are definitely not sons of their master.

Sergeyev basically, just means Sergey's.

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by TATY

The English 'of' does has something to do with it, it has a lot to do with it.

-ов / -ев is a short form possesive ending, which in English translates as of

The surname Sergeyev = "of Sergey" = "Sergey's son" etc.

I was merely reacting to your claim that in "-off -eff" in English meant 'of' because of the similarity (and that is why they are translated like that).

In any case, Sergeyev does not mean Sergey's son. Sergeyovich, yep, but Sergeyev might not even have a great grandfather called Sergey!

I wasn't saying that if someone's surname is Sergeyev that that means their father is called Sergey, I meant that when that surname was first given to someone, that's what it meant. Like if someone is called Smith it doesn't mean they have to be a smith by profession, but when someone in their family got it way back, they were a smith.

Excellent, so we all are in violent agreement!

Sergeyevich means the son of Sergey
Sergeyev does not mean the son of Sergey, it means at some point in history a guy's last name was based on someone's first name, be it his father, his master or his favorite dog Seryoga

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Excellent, so we all are in violent agreement!

Sergeyevich means the son of Sergey
Sergeyev does not mean the son of Sergey, it means at some point in history a guy's last name was based on someone's first name, be it his father, his master or his favorite dog Seryoga

You are wrong.

These surnames, for example Сергеев were originally, Сергеев сын. The syn was later dropped. Almost always, if the name was derived from someone's name it was the father's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name#Russia
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0% ... 0.B8.D0.B8