Thread: Is there pronouncing table for ъ?

Hello

The explanation of the letter "ъ" is to make the previous letter "soft".

But what is "soft"???

I get example that the L pronounce as li.

What if all the other letters?

Originally Posted by nadavvin

The explanation of the letter "ъ" is to make the previous letter "soft".

But what is "soft"???

I get example that the L pronounce as li.

What if all the other letters?

Consonants become soft before ь, not ъ. That's why ь is called the soft sign. Ъ is the hard sign.

Softening a.k.a. palatalization means you raise the middle part of your tongue higher toward your upper palate.

Historically "Ъ" and "Ь" were short vowels.

You can imagine instead of Ъ а very short vowel Ы (or О or У)
and instead of Ь а very short vowel И

Originally Posted by nadavvin

I get example that the L pronounce as li.

You should start to prononce Л in such a way as it is followed by the sound И, but you should not really pronounce this И.
УГОЛЬ ~ УГОЛ(very very very short и)

Off-topic: I am so glad they no longer add ъ to the end of every word in Russian. It looks kind of ugly.

Originally Posted by Yazeed

Off-topic: I am so glad they no longer add ъ to the end of every word in Russian. It looks kind of ugly.

Using articles in English also looks kind of ugly

Originally Posted by Wowik

Originally Posted by Yazeed

Off-topic: I am so glad they no longer add ъ to the end of every word in Russian. It looks kind of ugly.

Using articles in English also looks kind of ugly

What is articles? ( I didn't find something appreciate in the dictionary )

Historically "Ъ" and "Ь" were short vowels.

You can imagine instead of Ъ а very short vowel Ы (or О or У)
and instead of Ь а very short vowel И

nadavvin wrote:
I get example that the L pronounce as li.

You should start to prononce Л in such a way as it is followed by the sound И, but you should not really pronounce this И.
УГОЛЬ ~ УГОЛ(very very very short и)

Thank you

Is there any voice example of УГОЛЬ and УГОЛ to know how short it should be?

I have another problem if Ы which describe as something between и and y

Is there better explanation? (and not how to place the the tongue since it is not very helpful)

Originally Posted by Wowik

Originally Posted by Yazeed

Off-topic: I am so glad they no longer add ъ to the end of every word in Russian. It looks kind of ugly.

Using articles in English also looks kind of ugly

Нетъ.

Originally Posted by nadavvin

Is there any voice example of УГОЛЬ and УГОЛ to know how short it should be?

http://www.lingvozone.com/LingvoSoft-On ... Dictionary

Try 'мол' and 'моль'. Beggining sounds not good, but difference in 'л' souns more or less clearly.

I have another problem if Ы which describe as something between и and y
Is there better explanation? (and not how to place the the tongue since it is not very helpful)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_cent ... nded_vowel
There is sound sample.
I don't think explanation like '/sound/ is somthing between /letter/ and /letter/' useful.

http://www.lingvozone.com/LingvoSoft-On ... Dictionary

Try 'мол' and 'моль'. Beggining sounds not good, but difference in 'л' souns more or less clearly.

Thanks.

But when I hear 'моль', It's sound like 'moy' (English pronouncing)

and I here many times...

Originally Posted by nadavvin

But when I hear 'моль', It's sound like 'moy' (English pronouncing)

Hahaha, me too!

I don't think it's a Russian who says it...

ЛЬ and Л are difficult sounds to use for distinguishing palatalization because they are liquids. Take a solid STOP consonant like P, T, or K, or B, D, or G:
мат -- мать /mat/ - /mat'/
пот -- пётр /pot/ - /p'otr/ vocative: Эй, Пёт!!
кот -- ткёт /kot/ - /tk'ot/

Эх, братья, старик русский язык забывает ... не знаю правильно это слово в последнем примере -- ткёт ли тчёт ли.... И лезть в словарь лень.

Originally Posted by chaika

ЛЬ and Л are difficult sounds to use for distinguishing palatalization because they are liquids. Take a solid STOP consonant like P, T, or K, or B, D, or G:
мат -- мать /mat/ - /mat'/
пот -- пётр /pot/ - /p'otr/ vocative: Эй, Пёт!!
кот -- ткёт /kot/ - /tk'ot/

Эх, братья, старик русский язык забывает ... не знаю правильно это слово в последнем примере -- ткёт ли тчёт ли.... И лезть в словарь лень.

"ткёт" - правильно.
Я только не поняла, что такое "vocative: Эй, Пёт!!". Это просто опечатка, ты забыл поставить "р"?

vocative: Эй, Пётр!!
Nominative!

to nadavvin: by the way the letter Ы at first didn't exist in Russian, and was created by combining the two letters Ъ and И. So Ъ+И=Ы.

Эй Оль!

Just kidding, there is not really a vocative in Russian as you know, but names that end in -a tend to lose that vowel in vocative-type expressions.

Маш! Саш! for Маша Саша. I really don't know what happens to final /r/.

Originally Posted by chaika

Эй Оль!

Just kidding, there is not really a vocative in Russian as you know, but names that end in -a tend to lose that vowel in vocative-type expressions.

Маш! Саш! for Маша Саша. I really don't know what happens to final /r/.

Then "vocative" is Эй, Петь! (а не "Пёт").
It's nothing happens to final r, because it's from Петя, not from Пётр (from Пётр it's just Пётр ).

Aга (=duh!), спасибо большое, Оля-просветительница!

Originally Posted by chaika

Эй, Оль!

Just kidding, there is not really a vocative in Russian as you know, but names that end in -a tend to lose that vowel in vocative-type expressions.

Маш! Саш! for Маша Саша. I really don't know what happens to final /r/.

It is colloquial only!

Originally Posted by Yazeed

Off-topic: I am so glad they no longer add ъ to the end of every word in Russian. It looks kind of ugly.

The reason why that hard sign was at the end of Russian words was because, as a previous poster mentioned, the letters ь and ъ used to be short-vowel sounds. All words in Russian used to end in open-sylables, that is, in a vowel sound.

Because all words ended in either a vowel
A soft sign (which used to be a vowel sound)
A hard sign (which used to be a vowel sound)
An Й which follows a vowel sound.

Gradually the hard and soft sign lost their vowel sounds (a very long time ago) and took their modern day fucntions as soundless letters. Soft signs at the end of words now palatised the final consonant, whereas the hard sign was redundant at the end of words.

When the 1918 spelling reform took place and ъ was removed from the final position, erasing the last remnents of the open-vowel system.

Originally Posted by TATY

... erasing the last remnents of the open-vowel system.

Ещё много напоминаний осталось от той поры — беглые гласные в корне,... предлоги в/во, с/со