Thread: Confused about soft vowels

Russian with English sounds is practically incomprehensible, and you have to understand native speakers as well. Just think of a Russian saying vafe instead of wave, debt instead of dad, вёрт instead of word, will he be always understood?

No one is suggesting speaking "Russian with English sounds", merely that the distinction between hard and soft consonants is rarely (if ever) a real-world impediment to understanding on its own, especially for beginners who are struggling with so much more already. I was using Russian for years before I really understood the difference between hard and soft consonants, let alone became able to pronounce them myself. In all that time this inability hindered me not one iota. What impeded communication was gaps in my vocabulary and grammar and mistakes with declensions and conjugations. There are literally no real-world situations where pronouncing ся as sa or s-ya will confuse a listener.

These books do not help, they only make harm.

Don't be silly. If communication is your motivation, then of course they help. If your motivation is learning the language for academic purposes, or to perfect it, or to pass as a native, or even to avoiding offending the delicate sensibilities of native speakers who are overly precious about their language, then you might have to pay more attention to it.

you have seen yourself: Боб Уайтман's table helped a learner more than many textbooks, and Bob managed to write it even not being a professional Russian as a second language teacher, as far as I understand.

No it doesn't. Боб Уайтман's table only explains the orthography of soft and hard vowels and how they relate to preceding consonants. It doesn't explain the actual distinction between soft and hard consonants at all. To learn that you have to hear it, and to be able to hear it you need an understanding of the basics.

It is for a learner to decide what is important for him and what is not, textbooks must say correct things. Why should be the pronunciation fully negected and the grammar be studied if Russian is a living language?

Who has said that pronunciation should be "fully neglected", or even anything like that? You asked why beginner texts tend to ignore the subtleties of soft and hard sounds, and I attempted to explain it for you. It's not about neglecting anything, it's about prioritising that which makes a big difference over that which makes less of a difference. A beginner text can only contain so much information. Of course an author could include an in-depth explanation on softness (not that it's really possible to explain the difference between a soft and hard sound using only text anyway), but they'd have to lose something else to make space for it. What would you suggest should make way for this explanation? The chapter on verbal adverbs? Numbers? Reflexive verbs?

Originally Posted by zedeeyen

No one is suggesting speaking "Russian with English sounds", merely that the distinction between hard and soft consonants is rarely (if ever) a real-world impediment to understanding on its own, especially for beginners who are struggling with so much more already.

It's a somewhat harmful point of view in a way that it gives a learner an impression that hard and soft consonants are less important than other aspects of pronunciation. It's the same as telling a Japanese ESL learner that he should not bother learning to distinguish between R and L, because the difference is hard to explain and people would understand him anyway (from the context, if anything).
And they would. But does he really wants to speak with a cartoonish accent after putting so much effort into learning grammar and vocabulary??? Or people having to decipher his every word and constantly asking him to repeat yourself?

My personal point of view that there's no reason to postpone mastering correct pronunciation. Relearning it could be hell. And if you won't be able to pronounce some sounds from the start (maybe even for months), it's one more reason to start early.

An additional bonus of decent pronunciation is that it makes your language seem better than it is! It's a fact (really).

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

It's a somewhat harmful point of view in a way that it gives a learner an impression that hard and soft consonants are less important than other aspects of pronunciation.

They are less important. They're not completely unimportant, but comparatively they are less important.

It's the same as telling a Japanese ESL learner that he should not bother learning to distinguish between R and L, because the difference is hard to explain and people would understand him anyway (from the context, if anything).

No, it's not the same, because there are plenty of circumstances in English where mixing up R and L could lead to ambiguity or confusion.

But does he really wants to speak with a cartoonish accent after putting so much effort into learning grammar and vocabulary???

Personally, I only ever cared about being able to communicate, and all else being equal I'd rather be able to say what I want even in a funny accent than have perfect pronunciation but not be able to express myself. Of course that's an exaggerated distinction and learning is not as zero-sum as that, but in the initial stages of a beginner text it's not far off.

Or people having to decipher his every word and constantly asking him to repeat yourself?

You're exaggerating the distinction. Pronouncing ся as sa or s-ya does not cause listeners any problems, and in the context of all the other mistakes and hesitations a beginner will be making it's not even going to be noticeable. It might give you a slightly funny accent, but on its own it's not going to turn you into Равшан from Наша Russia.

My personal point of view that there's no reason to postpone mastering correct pronunciation. Relearning it could be hell.

Don't be silly. There's nothing to "relearn" by skipping over this initially, you just pick it up later when you're ready, either by progressing to more advanced texts or simply through familiarity with the language as spoken by natives.

And if you won't be able to pronounce some sounds from the start (maybe even for months), it's one more reason to start early.

I really don't understand the insistence that all aspects of pronunciation must come right at the start. There are countless aspects to learning a language and we generally only tackle them one at a time, so we have to prioritise. We learn basic verbs before we learn reflexive verbs, and the simple present tense before the past tense. We learn declarative sentence structure before we learn interrogative sentences, we learn nominative nouns before we tackle the instrumental case. We learn standard adjectives before we learn short form adjectives. First the basics, then fill in the gaps, and then refinement. What is so special about pronunciation that it can't be prioritised in this way and must be presented to the learner in its totality before they are even equipped to understand some of what they're being taught?

An additional bonus of decent pronunciation is that it makes your language seem better than it is! It's a fact (really).

Absolutely, I just think getting to a point where you can communicate effectively before worrying about the subtleties is a better strategy than wasting time on perfecting something that won't really help you at the stage you're at. It's like learning elaborate cursive handwriting without even learning how to recognise and print the basic letters first. And of course it's not really possible to convey pronunciation properly in text anyway, the learner is always going to have to use additional resources for that, so why bother wasting the page space on more than a summary?

Originally Posted by zedeeyen

No it doesn't. Боб Уайтман's table only explains the orthography of soft and hard vowels and how they relate to preceding consonants. It doesn't explain the actual distinction between soft and hard consonants at all. To learn that you have to hear it, and to be able to hear it you need an understanding of the basics.

But even that simple thing is not explained in textbooks, it does not take neither much place nor much time, but gives a possibility for a learner to understand what is what in the written form. That's like understanding how to pronounce ce, ca, que, za in Spanish.

You asked why beginner texts tend to ignore the subtleties of soft and hard sounds

These are not subtleties, but very basic things. Descriptions help much especially with consonants. Something correct still can be written in a textbook. At least you will know what you pronounce wrong. For example a Russian learner of English might not hear or reproduce the difference between w and v, but at least he is told by the transcription that they are two different sounds. A learner who pronounces lya instaed of ля might not even think he makes something wrong.