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Thread: Разные мысли и соображения вокруг событий в Украине

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  1. #1
    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Crocodile as well.
    Well... there is so much controversy surrounding the crisis.. I can only serve my personal opinion, so please add the missing "IMHO" wherever missing.

    First, if asked with whom I side: Ukraine of Russia, I would say I side with both or neither, since I believe there is no fundamental issue between Russia and Ukraine. How come? I believe there is a fundamental economical issue between Russia and EU and there is a fundamental military issue between Russia and NATO. And Ukraine has accidently become a battlefield. Military-wise, Russia cannot afford Ukraine becoming a NATO member. It is rightly assumed by Russia that after Ukraine becoming a EU member, the next very logical step for Ukraine would be joining NATO.

    Here's why. Ukraine consists of three major regions: the Western Ukraine, the Eastern Ukraine, and the Crimea. Each of those regions are geographically, historically, culturally, economically, and to some extent ethnically are distinct entities. Among the three, the Crimea is the least influential and virtually has no say in Ukrainian affairs. The Eastern and the Western regions like each other like a cat and a dog. The only reason they are together is the strong common fear of Russia - the political, cultural, and economical fear to become yet again just a province or a dominion of Russia. Today Ukrainians feel like they're the first-class citizens of their own country, and they felt they were second-class citizens when they were part of Russia. As a result, a typical fight between the Western and the Eastern regions would sum up in something like: "[...] and it is so great we are not in Russia where there is no A, B, and C, so we can freely do X, Y, and Z; something that Russian citizens are being deprived of! Poor Russians.. they must be envying us right now.. they just can't admit it because of their unfulfilled imperial ambitions!"

    And now about the imperial ambitions. Both Western and Eastern Ukraine unite when it comes to their imperial relationship with Crimea. On a paper, Crimea has a proud status of "Autonomous Republic", so Crimea has their own Parliament, Government, flag, and anthem. In reality, the power of all those proud Parliament and Government is just enough to elect, say, a teacher of the year, or make a decision whether to improve the plumbing between two cities this year or next year.. At most, they have a power of a municipality. And, obviously, they would very much be delighted to get more power. What for?
    For example, to sort out the legal issues related to the illegitimate seizures of the public real estate and converting it to the private property by some Crimean Tatars. Everybody agrees it is illegal, however neither the Crimean courts, nor the proud Parliament and Government could do anything about that. Only the power of Kiev could enforce the law in Crimea. The issue remains in active status for decades and Kiev deliberately does not want to take any legal actions against the Crimean Tatars. Why?

    Because, the Crimea is mostly populated by Russians and Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Crimean Tatars, once the native people of Crimea, were deported en mass in 1944 and were only allowed to come back in 1991. Only about half of the Crimean Tatars repatriated from the Central Asia, and those were politically active individuals determined to resettle and fight all the obstacles [in the form of the aforementioned Russian and Ukrainians]. The central power in Kiev deliberately dimishes the power of Crimeans by the old 'divide and conquer' principle: the Crimean Tatars are minority and are no danger to the Ukrainians affairs, and the Tatars are excellent tool of battling any 'Russian' in Crimea.

    For example, if a couple of Russians collect some money and build a memorial cross, immediately thousands of Crimean Tatars gather to demolish that cross and engage in the physical fight with Russians. Eventually, the [now ill-famed] Berkut groups are called to beat Russians [and restore the order].

    Another reason Crimeans en mass are not happy to be with Ukraine is the so-called 'Ukrainization' - the enforcement of Ukrainian language as the only official language. The only rationale given to the Russian-speaking communities is something like: "What a shame! You can't learn a language of the country you live in? If you're living in France, study French," totally ingoring the fact that people were born here and never left their homeland to start with, and the new state with the new rules fell upon them forcefully. Why is that a problem to recognize Russian as a second official language of Ukraine is a mystery to me. There are many countries in the world where more than one official language is recognized and that promotes the tolerance between the various ethnic groups. No explanation is given except for the cultural fear of Russia: it is assumed that people would stop speaking Ukrainian if Russian becomes the second language.

    That was a background which is necessary to understand the recent events.

    So, recently there has been two rude attempts to interfere in the interior Ukrainian politics.

    First, the sudden financial sanctions imposed by the EU against the selected individuals (whom the EU unilaterally made responsible for the bloodshed in Kiev) caused the technicall collapse of the Ukrainian government and enforced locally by the 'self-defence forces'. Among the rest, the temporary government declared the legitimacy of the ideological purges and the legal prosecution of whoever was involved with the previous 'criminal' power. And the roster of those 'whoever' was kindly supplied by the 'self-defence forces' - it was peacefully floating near the vacated President residence. Alas, not all documents were saved, some were burned and could not be recovered. Obviously, some pages of the saved documents were missing (=drowned or destroyed by water), but the other documents were perfectly intact and the roster of criminals to be purged was ready. Obviously, if that roster was, by a pure accident, incomplete, theoretically a dozen or more pages could be added (but they should have been put into water for a couple of minutes first, just to become more authentic) with little effort. Victoria to the Western Ukraine and the EU (and NATO just a few year later)! And whilst the country was unsure what is going on and what is going to happen next, the Crimean Tatars turned (thousands of them!) to be very supportive of the 'new government' right away. Right away were they demanding the dissmissal of the present Crimean Government and the Parliament (and demostrating their determination to use the force if necessary), asking only one small thing in return for their selfless democratic support - a better represenation of Crimean Tatars in the Crimean Parliament. (SURPRIZE!) The first and obvious consequence of that, should that better representation happen, would obviously be the legalization of the illegal land seizures. (O_o..)

    Then, the second rude attempt to interfere in the interior Ukrainian politics had occured - the occupation of Crimea by the untagged uniformed armed forces. The order was restored right away in Crimea and the Tatars became as peaceful and as politically unengaged as possible. And it was obvious right from the start those armed forces are Russian, so why the masquarade? Because, there is HUGE difference between the OCCUPATION and the ANNEXATION according to the international law. (Say 'Hi' to Israel and their practices.) Russian forces in Crimea are not there to stay, but to leave restoring the previous balance of power between the Eastern and the Western regions, keeping the EU and NATO away, and not letting the bloodshed in Crimea. Yes, the potential bloodshed is not from the legendary Bandera forces, but from the very real Crimean Tatars with the approval from the 'renewed and cleansed' central power from Kiev. Where would be Berkut to stop the violence in Crimea?
    Now, both Russia and EU/US are throwing as many pieces as they can on the negotiation table. There should be as many as possible just to be able to exchange piece for piece and hopefully gain something in the end.. Strong negotiation skills, yay!

    So, I think for an extra week or so there would be more pieces put on the table and in the subsequent two weeks the balance of power would be restored to what it was.

    Hmm.. how was I able to put down so many letters?

  2. #2
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Well... there is so much controversy surrounding the crisis.. I can only serve my personal opinion, so please add the missing "IMHO" wherever missing.
    Thank you so much for this super informative post Crocodile, and for trying to be objective too.

    Attention all English speaking lurkers in this forum
    , read his article, you will learn plenty!

    I didn't know all these things about the Crimean Tatars and their importance. I just automatically think of Tatars as Russians but these people are much more complex than that.

    I can't help but have the feeling that maybe this project of a Ukranian state based on the Ukrainian soviet republic was never realistic! If they split it up, then everybody might end up being better off. Some in partnership with Russia and some with the EU or maybe even with Turkey and the other Black Sea countries.

    In trying to find a compromise they must seriously disappoint one group or another, and then the on-off Russia vs EU circus goes on and on...

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I can't help but have the feeling that maybe this project of a Ukranian state based on the Ukrainian soviet republic was never realistic! If they split it up, then everybody might end up being better off. Some in partnership with Russia and some with the EU or maybe even with Turkey and the other Black Sea countries.
    The point is the part of Ukraine so desired by EU and NATO is mostly pro-Russian. Western pro-EU part is useless for them. It has neither sea access, nor industry or mineral deposits. Lenin included these mostly Russian regions into forming Ukrainian SSR in 1922 to increase persent of proletariat (factory workers) in it's population.

    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    The point is the part of Ukraine so desired by EU and NATO is mostly pro-Russian. Western pro-EU part is useless for them. It has neither sea access, nor industry or mineral deposits.

    OMG that cartoon was brilliant!
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    The point is the part of Ukraine so desired by EU and NATO is mostly pro-Russian. Western pro-EU part is useless for them. It has neither sea access, nor industry or mineral deposits. Lenin included these mostly Russian regions into forming Ukrainian SSR in 1922 to increase persent of proletariat (factory workers) in it's population.
    Ой, пошли матрешки с салом и балалайками. Нету в Украине никаких пророссийских областей - теперь уже точно. Есть на Российском ТВ и в некоторой Западной прессе, больше нигде.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
    Well... there is so much controversy surrounding the crisis.. I can only serve my personal opinion, so please add the missing "IMHO" wherever missing.


    This was very helpful background -- especially the discussion of the inter-ethnic disputes. (I know embarrassingly little about Crimea's history, apart from the fact that the remains of the "Golden Horde" continued to rule there for a long, long time.)
    Говорит Бегемот: "Dear citizens of MR -- please correct my Russian mistakes!"

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Вежливость захватывает города. В Севастополе в три раза снизилось количество преступлений
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    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramil View Post
    Вежливость захватывает города. В Севастополе в три раза снизилось количество преступлений
    Инфа 100%?
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Честные блоггеры лгать не будут!
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    Завсегдатай Ramil's Avatar
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    Санкции со стороны США в отношении российских госструктур вынудят Россию признать невозможность возврата кредитов американским банкам. Об этом заявил советник президента России Сергей Глазьев, передает РИА Новости <http://www.ria.ru/> .

    По его словам, санкции являются обоюдоострым оружием, и если в США будут заморожены российские активы, то и пассивы организаций РФ в долларах также будут заморожены. Это, как отметил Глазьев, приведет к тому, что банки и предприятия из РФ не будут возвращать займы американским партнерам.

    Глазьев добавил, что если американские власти заморозят счета российских предприятий и граждан, правительство России будет рекомендовать всем продавать казначейские обязательства Соединенных Штатов. Советник президента подчеркнул, что Россия является держателем американских гособлигаций более чем на 200 миллиардов долларов.

    Также Глазьев отметил, что если США применят в отношении страны санкции, российская сторона должна будет создать свою расчетно-платежную систему и уйти из доллара в другие валюты. «У нас прекрасные торгово-экономические отношения с нашими партнерами на Востоке и на Юге, и мы найдем способ не только обнулить нашу финансовую зависимость от США, но и выйдем из этих санкций с большой выгодой для себя», — заявил он. Глазьев предупредил, что попытка ввести санкции в отношении России «обернется крахом для финансовой системы США, который повлечет прекращение доминирования США в мировой финансовой системе».


    Хм, неужели мои мечты сбудутся и Россия выйдет из доллара?!
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  12. #12
    Hanna
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    I saw on RT, that the new "elected" leaders in Ukraine are rich oligarchs who all appear on the top 10 list of richest people in Ukraine.
    Seriously? This just seems like more of the same.

    They also showed the houses of Julia Timoshenko and some of her allies that I don't know. She's rich as a goblin. Particularly not a relatively poorly off country.

    In my opinion, such people are NOT credible as leaders of a country. Whether it's Ukraine, Russia, USA, Italy or France.

    People who become politicians should come from regular backgrounds as much as possible, be elected in a process that does not require money or sponsorship to participate, or because of specialist skills.

    I seriously DOUBT that a bunch of oligarchs will bring any meaningful improvement to regular people in Ukraine.

    Another thing that Western media is unaware of, or just ignoring, is Crimea's historical ties with Russia, and that it's mostly a fluke that it belongs to Ukraine.
    And that Russia are paying millions to Ukraine to keep a base there.
    It's not even mentioned.

    And as or RT - they write it off as Russian propaganda.

    I am going to stop following this now. The hypocrisy in Western media is driving me crazy,
    I just hope things will work out for the Ukrainian people.

  13. #13
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I saw on RT, that the new "elected" leaders in Ukraine are rich oligarchs who all appear on the top 10 list of richest people in Ukraine.
    Seriously? This just seems like more of the same.
    Well, you don't really follow the situation, don't you? The government is temporary, not elected, the elections are coming soon, Julia don't enter the temporary government and there is no way in contemporary Ukraine to be poor and independent in the same time. It is still to be made.

    You feel ready for conclusions?

    BTW if you don't accept legitimity of even moderately rich people and money-consuming elections, than you should not accept legitimity of any USA president.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  14. #14
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Well, you don't really follow the situation, don't you? The government is temporary, not elected, the elections are coming soon, Julia don't enter the temporary government and there is no way in contemporary Ukraine to be poor and independent in the same time. It is still to be made.

    You feel ready for conclusions?

    BTW if you don't accept legitimity of even moderately rich people and money-consuming elections, than you should not accept legitimity of any USA president.
    No, I have no conclusions, I am trying to understand it.
    And I have zero admiration for "democracy" in the USA. And some parts of Europe. It's a joke, and media is in on it.

    Whatever will raise living standards for Ukrainians across the country, and not discriminate anyone, is fine by me.
    I don't care if it's nationalists, communists, Russia or EU/USA puppets.

    As long as it works, and provides stability and improved living conditions for the majority. Not just a clique at the top of society.

    But don't trust the EU, please.
    The EU looks after its own, primarily Northwestern Europe. And runs the errands of the USA. Just because they come and talk on the Maidan and hand out cookies doesn't mean they genuinely care about the lives of regular people in Ukraine. They care about how EU busineses can make money in and out of Ukraine, and about opposing Russia. If it helps some Ukrainians then would be happy with that, but it's not their main motivation.

    I'm aware Timoshenko is not in the government. Last I heard she flew to Germany to be treated for some illness after being released from prison. I think she'll want to continue in politics though, she seems very passionate. I know she was accused of corruption, but I don't know if it's true, and what exactly her politics is.

  15. #15
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by it-ogo View Post
    Well, you don't really follow the situation, don't you? The government is temporary, not elected, the elections are coming soon, Julia don't enter the temporary government and there is no way in contemporary Ukraine to be poor and independent in the same time. It is still to be made.

    You feel ready for conclusions?

    BTW if you don't accept legitimity of even moderately rich people and money-consuming elections, than you should not accept legitimity of any USA president.
    Bullshit. I think what Hanna quotes is right, in this case. I read the same info from RT. I don't trust it fully as a source but the facts are these Ukrainian 'businessmen' are more of the same. They have a Jewish central banker as interim PM. Do you think these personnel in the Government will change much after an 'election?' Didn't you listen to the Nuland recording? They already decided who they want or don't care for (i.e. smaller governor or other appointee positions that are insignificant to them). Then, they pacify the electorate with 15-30 or whatever amount they choose-billion dollar IMF loan and promises of jobs and BS, BS and more BS.... same shit as before but a different pile.

    I'm very disappointed that Ukrainians haven't seen through this but I guess when you are already oppressed and are poor for a long time, it's easy to turn screws and manipulate things.

    "BTW if you don't accept legitimity of even moderately rich people and money-consuming elections, than you should not accept legitimity of any USA president."
    Many Americans know there is a problem about that. Also, they often criticize lobbies and other intrusive operations. So, that is the point. This is going to be yet another corrupt and shady 'democracy.' Ukraine is not independent, STILL.

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    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Well, after just listening Putin's speech I must agree with Merkel's statement that he has lost a touch with reality. Despite he mostly told things I can agree with, he desided to play fool with "Crimean self-defence forces". Also those childish excuses "Look what USA did in Serbia, Iraq and Libya!". Damn, I'm ashamed of his actions.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

  17. #17
    Завсегдатай it-ogo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77 View Post
    Well, after just listening Putin's speech I must agree with Merkel's statement that he has lost a touch with reality. Despite he mostly told things I can agree with, he desided to play fool with "Crimean self-defence forces". Also those childish excuses "Look what USA did in Serbia, Iraq and Libya!". Damn, I'm ashamed of his actions.
    He took what he wanted to, the rest is a diplomacy: I know that I lie and you know that I lie but you can pretend to believe me and keep your face. This kind of game is always payed at all levels but usually not so bluntly. Surprizingly I have a feeling that some time ago he was sequentially avoiding direct lie even in public statements. Now he abandoned that manner. Probably he believes that won something really important. I don't see what exactly.
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

  18. #18
    Hanna
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    I caught a bit of it. I think he was being his usual self. Some of it right, some of it funny/showy and some just cryptical or nonsensical. Plus a slight air of superiority, he thinks he's about 10 times smarter than the journalists, and it shows.....

    But according to him, NOTHING has happened from a Russian perspective, and Russia will not annex or otherwise take over Crimea. He said:


    • No Russian forces crossed any borders apart from soldiers legitimately transiting to the Sevastopol base according to the contract.
    • The number of Russian solders on Crimea is within the terms of the contract for the base....
    • Definitely no tanks involved, and
    • any action at the border with Ukraine was pure co-incidence due to a random military exercise.... yes, sure... what are the odds of that.
    • He denied any knowledge of the special forces type soldiers with "no insignia" that turned up in Crimea and said that anyone can buy a uniform in a shop. Too silly! He should have just said "Unable to comment".


    I totally believed it when European media they said Russia was sending soldiers to Krim.

  19. #19
    Hanna
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    I don't understand why you say he lost touch with reality? I think he's being the same as he always is. A bit weird but with some punchlines here and there. Avoiding all difficult questions, like politicians always do.

    Losing touch with reality would be saying "Yippi, finally a hafway legitimate chance to get Crimea back, let's go and "liberate" it and to heck with the West and lunatics in Kiev... and let's pick up a few cities in West Ukraine on the way there."

    That's essentially what the Western media is portraying that he did, even though it actually hasn't happened.

    Maybe I am less critical of him because I don't have to live in a country ruled by him... or because I like some aspects of his style.

  20. #20
    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I don't understand why you say he lost touch with reality? I think he's being the same as he always is. A bit weird but with some punchlines here and there. Avoiding all difficult questions, like politicians always do.

    Losing touch with reality would be saying "Yippi, finally a hafway legitimate chance to get Crimea back, let's go and "liberate" it and to heck with the West and lunatics in Kiev... and let's pick up a few cities in West Ukraine on the way there."

    That's essentially what the Western media is portraying that he did, even though it actually hasn't happened.

    Maybe I am less critical of him because I don't have to live in a country ruled by him... or because I like some aspects of his style.
    Because as far I remember it's the first time he gave order that directly contradicts with international laws (to surround and disarm Ukrainian military bases in Crimea). Also direct lie about it was done by "Crimean self-defence forces". After doing this he has no moral right to say that Russian government always follow international laws and agreements. What a shame.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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