Thread: Почему распался Советский Союз? Что происходит в Прибалтике, и немного истории

Originally Posted by Basil77

Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual.

What makes you think so?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

What makes you think so?

Their posts.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Their posts.

The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

The one where they think Gorbachev should have released Baltic states in 1985? Or some other one?

The general attitude towards Russians, constant whining about occupation, exiles to Siberia, etc. Btw, the persentage of people who were repressed in Baltics is no more than the persentage in Russia itself, people were repressed not because they were Latvians, Estonians or Lithuanians, but because they belonged to "wrong" social group, such repressions took place all over USSR, but only people from Baltic republics keep whining about it. I am always amused when I hear such whining from Lithuanians especially, because if they hate so much that happened to them in 1940 and want to return the pre-1940 state of affairs, they should make Kaunas their capital again and return Wilno to Belorussia or to Poland.

Originally Posted by Basil77

Baltic forest brothers are being faggots as usual.

Все имеют право на своё мнение, любое. Не надо обзываться.

Lithuanians beat Jews to death with steel bars

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Lithuanians beat Jews to death with steel bars

Do you think that if you put there fake photos and will say that it was Lithuanians who killed these Jewish people in Lietūkis it will be a proof? It won‘t be a proof at all.
Because the first photo has appeared in Polish press and under it was said that it‘s Polish prosecuted pogrom in Kelcai (city in south of Poland) but not the killings in Lietūkis garages. So how should one understand this fact???

But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars???

Of course, I don‘t say that there was no Lithuanian who killed a Jewish (some were forced by Nazis), but as I said before most of Lithuanian people tried to save lives of Jewish people because we never had anything against them.
Doesn‘t it really seems strange to you that since middle ages there was no problems between Lithuanians and Jewish and just suddenly when Nazis occupied Lithuania all Lithuanians started to ‘‘hate‘‘ Jewish so much?
It‘s silly to put the blame on Lithuanians for Jewish massacres in my country, when most of the people risked their own lives to save these Jewish people.

But anyway, why are you delving in topics about holocaust, when this thread was started do talk about Russia and collapse of Soviet Union? Don‘t you think that holocaust is off this topic????

Originally Posted by mergike

But now let‘s talk about second photo. Do you know who is this man standing in the photo? Some kind of Lithuanian? I bet that you have no idea about it because otherwise you wouldn‘t have put this photo there and made such a mistake This man in the photo is SS obarshturmfhurer Joachim Hamman and I guess you understand from his name and surname that he isn‘t Lithuanian but German. Hamman was a leader of Rollkommando Hamann - a small mobile unit which committed mass Jewish murders in Lithuania and also was responsible for large number of murders in Latvia, Daugavpils. So are you still thinking that it‘s Lithuanians who are beating this Jewish people with metal steel bars???

Поделись своим научным открытием с Яд Вашем. Там эта гнида названа литовским погромщиком.
Лагеря уничтожения и массовые убийства - Фотографии- Образование - Яд Вашем

And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians??? And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively..

Do I have to remind you that more than 300,000 citizens of Estonia, almost a third of the population at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least 200,000 people or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war

In all, over 200,000 people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than 260,000 Latvians to flee the country.

Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them. Some 300,000 Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost 780,000 citizens as a result of Soviet occupation.

Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow.

During the years 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported, of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and 7.4% were Jews. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 were murdered.

This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

Originally Posted by mergike

And what do you think you‘ll prove by sending another link to the same photos? I said that this man in the photo is Joachim Hamman. Do some research about him if something is not clear to you.
And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it. So maybe you can give an answer to this simple question? Do you think that they without any reason were hiding proofs of the crime which according to you was made by Lithuanians??? And if it were Lithuanians who killed these 200 000 jews there then how Nazi knew where exactly all these bodies were burried??? Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?
First of all look at yourself before blaming us so perversively..

Do I have to remind you that more than 300,000 citizens of Estonia, almost a third of the population at the time, were affected by deportation, arrests, execution and other acts of repression. As a result of the Soviet takeover, Estonia permanently lost at least 200,000 people or 20% of its population to repressions, exodus, and war

In all, over 200,000 people suffered from Soviet repressions in Latvia, of which some 60% were deported to the Soviet GULAG in Siberia and the Far-East. The Soviet regime forced more than 260,000 Latvians to flee the country.

Between 1940–41, thousands of Lithuanians were arrested and hundreds of political prisoners were arbitrarily executed. More than 17,000 people were deported to Siberia in June 1941. After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the incipient Soviet political apparatus was either destroyed or retreated eastward. Lithuania was then occupied by Nazi Germany for a little over three years. In 1944, the Soviet occupation of Lithuania resumed following the German army's being expelled. Following World War II and the subsequent suppression of the Lithuanian Forest Brothers, Soviet authorities executed thousands of resistance fighters and civilians accused of aiding them. Some 300,000 Lithuanians were deported or sentenced to prison camps on political grounds. It is estimated that Lithuania lost almost 780,000 citizens as a result of Soviet occupation.

Or maybe you want to remember how Russians behaved with Polish people? Torture was used on a wide scale in various prisons, especially those in small towns. Prisoners were scalded with boiling water in Bobrka; in Przemyslany, people had their noses, ears, and fingers cut off and eyes put out; in Czortkow, female inmates had their breasts cut off; and in Drohobycz, victims were bound together with barbed wire. Similar atrocities occurred in Sambor, Stanislawow,Stryj, and Zloczow.

During the years 1939–41, nearly 1.5 million inhabitants of the Soviet-controlled areas of former eastern Poland were deported, of whom 63.1% were Poles or other nationalities and 7.4% were Jews. Only a small number of these deportees survived the war. According to American professor Carroll Quigley, at least one third of the 320,000 Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army in 1939 were murdered.

This is taken from Wikipedia, and I mentioned just few countries which you occupied... Soviet war crimes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So after all, when we consider the fact that Russians love so much to celebrate 9th of May, and according to them they definitely have a ‘‘reason‘‘ to be proud of such ‘‘achievements‘‘...I think it says everything what is needed to be said....

Einsatzgruppen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the German invasion began, a massive series of bloody pogroms broke out, some of which were encouraged by the Germans, and all of which were the spontaneous outbreaks of local anti-Semitism.[28] Within the first few weeks of Operation Barbarossa, 40 pogroms had broken out with about 10,000 Jews being killed by local people.[29] The Canadian historian Erich Haberer has written that incidents such as the Jedwabne pogrom were not incidental, but rather "integral" to the Holocaust in Eastern Europe as without local help, the Germans could not have murdered so many so quickly.[30] Upon entering Kaunas on June 25, 1941, the Einsatzgruppen released all of the criminals from the local jail and encouraged them to join the already existing pogrom.[31] Between June 23–27, 1941, 4,000 Jews were killed on the streets of Kaunas by local people, and saw the first massacres of Jews in open pits committed by Lithuanian anti-Semitics.

As for GULAG - it was all political and Russians there were much more than Lithuanians

And Romik wasn‘t able to explain why German soldiers were digging out shot jews‘ bodies and tried to burn it.

Where you found that rubbish? What the sense to dig out bodies to burn them, how that could help to hide proofs of who exactly that did?

Don‘t you see that all these your charges that Lithuanians killed 200 000 jews when we were occupied and had no power at all do not make any sence at all?

There are evidences of acts of executions and it's obviously without local help so many Jews could not be so quickly identified and murdered. Germans didn't know where lived every Jew.

It seems to have become a national hobby in the Baltic states to talk about this.
Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future? Latvia and Estonia have a got a lot going for them, and some of those things are actually due to the USSR times. (I won't make the mistake of including Lithuania again because I don't know a lot about that).

I have never discussed it with Latvians and Lithuanians before (except now) but Estonians are always talking about it.
Several times I've heard Finnish and Swedish people tell them to just shut up. That is perhaps insensitive, but lots of Finnish and Swedish people went to Estonia in the Soviet times (my dad for example) and things looked fine. Plus everyone has heard the complaints so many times.

Estonian SSR was only marginally worse off than Finland (and it's always been that way, so that was nothing new for the USSR era) before the 1980s, and in Estonia everyone had a job during the Soviet years, in contrast to Finland which had horrible unemployment and quite bad poverty, causing almost a million to emigrate. Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time. If it was so terrible, they could have stayed, but practically nobody did.

The problems with the USSR are already well known and for the Baltic states, most of the bad things happened in the 1940s and early 50s, and after the death of Stalin, things calmed down. Some good things DID come out of the Soviet years - for example lots of good public buildings and structures, and high level of education.

Scandinavia for example was full of goodwill and wanted to help in the 1990s. Also the EU. But there was so much criminality coming from there and it was like "we just want aid and compensation and compassion, but we are going to steal your cars and rob your houses".

The Nazis did not build schools and hospitals in the countries they invaded! It's a different situation.

Remember that the Soviets / Russians thought that they were doing the right thing towards the Baltics. Liberating etc. They thought they were helping working class people and would build communism etc, etc. Good goals, as far as they were concerned. And the Baltic states were not rich countries before the Soviet era. A lot of people might have got better lives as USSR citizens than they otherwise would have had.

And yes, everyone already knows that this came at a wrong/immoral price of some being deported and that religion was wrongly supressed etc.

Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.

Perhaps it's more convenient to just say "it's all the Russians fault" than admit that a majority probably (I don't know, but I'd guess) went along or actively participated in USSR life. Either because they were cynics or because they genuinely saw that some good things came out of it, or believed in the ideals.

My point is: You are in the EU, you are in Nato, you've got your independence with practically no bloodshed. Things could be a lot worse: The USSR had already educated people very well, looked after their health and got them a job and somewhere to live. Despite this, everybody sympathisizes with what the Baltic states went through.
But now it's time to look to the future!

As far as I understand, no one from Baltic states cares to recall those events and constantly talk about them. It's just when they're told they should give some other languages besides their only ones the official status, they simply explain why that can't be done.

Also, all the Soviet SSRs were run by local people in practically all important places, weren't they? It was not like Russians from Moscow came in and took over the country. Lots of local people joined the communist party and generally participated in the socialist state.

Actually it was - if someone wanted to do something that Moscow disapproved, they immediately sent tanks inside.
Google "Prague Spring" or "Budapest 1956" and these countries weren't even part of Soviet Union.

"it's all the Russians fault"

I do not blame Russians, I blame communists and their defective by design ideology.

Why don't you let the past be the past and look to the future?

Because as I said - Russia does not want to abandon and deal with its past - it is constantly glorifying it - just like in Soviet times.
If Russia's official propaganda constantly says that USSR liberated us - what should we do - simply agree with them?
Do you think that Lithuania should simply forgive bastards like Golovatov and let him walk free after what he did?

Estonians were able to go to Finland on holiday during this time.

All "holidayer" groups were infiltrated by KGB agents that watched after any potential "stayers".

Originally Posted by nulle

I do not blame Russians

Ok, that's a good thing because nobody here is responsible for it and they probably feel bad that the USSR time is so disliked in the Baltic states.

Since most people on the forum are Russians and all this is already known to them, perhaps we should just leave the topic.

Nobody here has defended Stalin's idea to incorporate the Baltic states or deport civilians.

Personally I like Russian culture and I think that Russian people are among the nicest and most sincere & fun Europeans. It's a pity that all the USSR legacy is preventing many people from seeing what is really a beautiful and interesting country with fundamentally friendly and fun people.

Perhaps you should get yourself a visa and check it out Nulle? Just go against the stream a bit. That doesn't mean that you agree with anything that Stalin did etc - just that look to the future and not the past. Btw, being trilingual with Latvian, Russian and English is very impressive in the eyes of most people. After all, Russian is a language spoken by over 200 million people.
Or go to Belarus or Ukraine (don't need a visa for Ukraine).

The constant talking about exiling to Siberia amuses me a lot. Living here all my life I can say that there is a good bunch of Jewish names around here as well as a good bunch of German names (it is possible that they are the descendants of WWII captives) though these days these people are native Russians and only their surnames provides an idea of their origins. But during all my life I hardly ever met a person with a Baltic type of surname. Taking in to account that according to our Baltic guests every Baltic state lost about 300 000 which were exiled to Siberia I had to be occupied by Baltic people here.

Not everyone stayed there - some died en route, some died in camps, and some (like my grandparents) returned home after Stalin's death.

What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country against criminal rioters who occupied TV tower and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him. About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers who betrayed his comrades to Gestapo (they were tortured to death and there were women and children among them)? There was a war going on and he is still a hero in my opinion and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case. Balts who show such attitude just prove that your tiny republics still have a long road ahead to overcome inferiority complex and gain the right to call yourself civilized and grown-up nations. Have a nice day.

What truth you've told? About commander of KGB "Alpha" group who defended the constitution of his country and followed his military oath? I consider him a man who should be respected at least and your miserable court have no jurisdiction to juge him.

The problem is he was defending that constitution where it had no power anymore. The main mistake the Soviets then made was they too late realized they should just let it go.

My second point here is no political issues/ambitions are worth a single human life. If what that man did led to deaths of 14 civilians, he's an ordinary criminal and should be prosecuted not only in Lithuania but in any country that respects international laws.

And last, but not least, reducing to personal insults hardly makes your arguments more convincing...

About old partizan hero who fought nazis and punished some nazi helpers

This unborn baby was a fucking nazi collaborator - Kononov did a very good job neutralizing him.

There was a war going

Of course there was, but I think that there is a difference between battle-hardened Gestapo soldiers and unborn babies - or maybe they are so hard to tell apart?

There were THREE sides in Latvia during WW2 - not two like soviet propaganda tells us.
1. Latvians
2. Nazis
3. Communists
And being AGAINST communism does not mean that we supported nazis. Hell - they killed 100 000 of our citizens.

and your buffon court showed it's true sympathy to nazis once again in this case

Kononov's case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights and they did not object too - so maybe try to research some facts.
And if you think that Latvia can influence it's decisions - you are overestimating our powers big time .