Thread: Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Don't you mean that the art of being direct is not quite a top priority in British tradition?

Oh no, youtube quotes don't work anymore.. or is it just me?

Alexei Navalniy and his brother Oleg get received suspended prison sentences for a corrupt deal whereby they overcharged the company Yves Rocher for mail deliveries that they then outsourced to super cheap couriers.

Yves Rocher then sued the brothers. Interestingly Navalny runs a popular anti-corruption blog. However, he still managed to act in a corrupt way himself, in his dealings with this French company.

As far as western press is concerned, this is political persecution of a major opposition figure in Russia. But wait, how did "Putin" convince Yves Rocher to participate?

The Guardian

Putin critic’s supporters say prison sentence for his brother shows Kremlin returning to Soviet-era practice of punishing relatives

Well, did her cheat a French company, or not?
If he did, the sentence is fair. If not it is political persecution.

But why would a French company sue somebody in order to pursue political persectution of dissidents in Russia. Looks to me that Navalniy actually did rip somebody off and in that case he's not very credible to be blogging about anti-corruption.

Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.

Originally Posted by RedFox

Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.

Is he definitely guilty of the crime he was convicted for? Dishonest business dealings with Yves Rocher?

"Алексея на 3 года условно (за раскрытие шубохранилищ) - чтоб народ не шел на площадь,
братана Олега - берут в заложники 3.5 реально.
Кто скажет, что дело политическое?
Брат политикой не занимался."

СТАНИСЛАВ САДАЛЬСКИЙ - Умно однако.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Alexei Navalniy and his brother Oleg get received suspended prison sentences for a corrupt deal whereby they overcharged the company Yves Rocher for mail deliveries that they then outsourced to super cheap couriers.

This itself is a common business practice. Freight is negotiable and companies mark up freight. There has to be something else going on.

Well Yves Rocher didn't think it was normal.
They thought it was so unacceptable that they sued.


Edit - according to Swedish media, Yves Rocher say they have no complaint against Navalny. That is looking incredibly bad on Russia, if it is true. Is the crime fabricated?! Or did they just dig up some crime that was so insignificant that not even the victim complained...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Is he definitely guilty of the crime he was convicted for? Dishonest business dealings with Yves Rocher?

Definitely not. All the case is just nonsense. If I buy something from John at a price of $1, and then I sell it to Bob at a price of $1.5, that means... I am guilty of corruption. LOL.

Originally Posted by RedFox

Ой, да это цирк какой-то, а не суд. У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает. Но в Новый Год, как известно, невозможное возможно.

It looks like the Russian government wants Navalniy to continue his opposition deeds but at the same time they want to limit what he's doing, trying to scare him off a little bit. Russia needs opposition badly but at the same time fears opposition when it gets too "radical".
I suspect that word that should describe this: the government wants to groom Navalniy

Originally Posted by RedFox

Ой, да это У Навального теперь ДВА условных срока, чего по закону просто не бывает.

По какому именно закону? Вчера в медиа (либеральных, в основном) этот вопрос поднимался, говорят и по пять условных бывает и все по закону.

Originally Posted by hddscan

It looks like the Russian government wants Navalniy to continue his opposition deeds but at the same time they want to limit what he's doing, trying to scare him off a little bit. Russia needs opposition badly but at the same time fears opposition when it gets too "radical".
I suspect that word that should describe this: the government wants to groom Navalniy

Want him to continue 'his opposition deeds?' Why? For distraction? To make it seem like they 'tolerate' "opposition?"

'I suspect that word that should describe this: *the government wants to groom Navalniy*' - this makes sense to me. You might re-phrase this part, though: "I suspect that word that should describe this"

I believe I understand your point, though. They want to 'buy' his allegiance or 'invite him over?' I understand he might be too 'pro-Western' or look at having a more open relationship with the West. How would Putin et al. deal with that? He studied at Yale? The only thing, though, is that many Kremlin cronies have gone abroad for business or education. Many oligarchs have trips to the UK for e.g. So, going to the USA shouldn't bother too many Russians? Imho, the problem is that it's very near-impossible to be a true opposition force in Russia. Ones that try are often jailed. Not threatened with prison, they actually get a sentence. That is, one is to assume that they refuse to be bought off or to 'cooperate.' So, it could be described as such: 'either compromise and share power or get the full extent of the law thrown at you' (even if it is via 'tricks' etc.). Putin has changed the laws or modified them extensively to curb expression and have 'wording' so that they can criminalize any criticism.

One last question: how many Russians do you think have the idea that the government wants to 'groom him?' What do they think are his motives or how would he respond to the Government's policy on him?

In bold display, thousands in Russia protest Alexei Navalny sentence - LA Times
Conviction of Putin foe sets off protest in Moscow

It seems that Western media is prepared to make him look like a persecuted 'political prisoner' so that could be another reason why they don't want to push on him too harshly?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well Yves Rocher didn't think it was normal.
They thought it was so unacceptable that they sued.


Edit - according to Swedish media, Yves Rocher say they have no complaint against Navalny. That is looking incredibly bad on Russia, if it is true. Is the crime fabricated?! Or did they just dig up some crime that was so insignificant that not even the victim complained...

First, when saying that Yves Rocher have no complaint against Navalny his lawyers show INTERNAL(!) letter from one of Yves Rocher managers to CEO that Navalny didn't do anything bad, besides the case is bad for reputation and so let's say that we have no complaints. CEO said that the case is valid. And to the question if he guilty or not... I knew people who got prison sentences for far less then that:

Сразу бросаются в глаза две вещи, которые Навальный старательно обходит стороной.
Во-первых, Олег Навальный действительно являлся топ-менеджером на «Почте России» и мог воспользоваться служебным положением для принуждения Ив Роше заключить договор с ООО "Главподписка". Подсудимые этот факт никак не опровергают.

Во-вторых, следствием установлено, что денежные средства, полученные от Ив Роше фирмой Навального, были спешно "легализованы". Двадцать миллионов были выведены на счета ООО "Кобяковская фабрика по лозоплетению", которое принадлежит родителям Навального. В частности, по договору аренды помещения 78 метров со ставкой аренды 300 000 рублей в месяц.

Чтобы понимать порядок цен, ставка аренды в бизнес-центре класса "А" в хорошем районе Москвы - в два с половиной раза (!) меньше, чем в подмосковном Кобяково.

Учитывая взаимозависимость арендатора и арендодателя, очевидно, что имела место мнимая сделка с целью вывода незаконно заработанных денег.

... In 2012, The Wall Street Journal described him as "the man Vladimir Putin fears most" ... Wikipedia/ English Version

Originally Posted by Basil77

First, when saying that Yves Rocher have no complaint against Navalny his lawyers show INTERNAL(!) letter from one of Yves Rocher managers to CEO that Navalny didn't do anything bad, besides the case is bad for reputation and so let's say that we have no complaints. CEO said that the case is valid. And to the question if he guilty or not... I knew people who got prison sentences for far less then that:

But if the alleged victim doesn't have a complaint, then why prosecute?

Even if they decide they don't want the negative publicity - that's their call.

Le Monde writes about this here Comment le procès d'Alexeï Navalny est devenu « l'affaire Yves Rocher »
in a fairly unbiased way, I think.

Apparently the prosecution comes after Yves Rocher asked some Russian official about getting out of a disadvantageous contract, if I understood correctly. Russia is Yves Rocher's second largest market after France. The case was looked into and the alleged corruption was discovered. But Yves Rocher didn't sue Navalny or report them to anticorruption watchdogs, or anything.

It looks like Navalny probably did behave a bit dishonestly, but nobody even sued him for it or complained about it. So why prosecute?

Or am I missing something here?

This looks like abuse of the justice system to punish somebody who is politically inconvenient. I don't like it, and frankly I don't see why Putin with his 80% approval ratings would resort to something as shady as that.

I don't normally by into the criticisms of Russia in Western press, and it's obvious to me that most Russians don't even care about having Western democracy anyway. They'd rather have stability and economic growth. Fine!

But this time it looks like they are on to something. Who cares if Navalny overcharged a company that doesn't care about having been overcharged?

If the powers to be in Moscow wants to stop Navalnys activism they ought to be open about it, not whip up something like this. It undermines peoples faith in the justice system too, and it's petty. It gives Russia a bad reputation abroad.

If I understood the facts in this correctly then I disagree with the actions of the Russian state in this.

Some Russian in Luxembourg has started a petition against Yves Rocher about this. Part of the petition says:

On 4 December 2012, Bruno Leproux, general director of Yves Rocher Vostok, requested that the Investigative Committee of Russia look into the possible losses that Yves Rocher may have incurred in 2008-2012 as a result of its partnership with the firm Glavpodpiska. One of Glavpodpiska's shareholders was Alexey Navalny, who by 2012 had become the leader of the Russian opposition and was under constant pressure from the Russian authorities.

This request provided a formal pretext to start a criminal case against Alexey Navalny. Despite the legal prosecution, Navalny did not end his political activity and was then placed under house arrest. It has now been six months since he was barred from using the Internet, talking with anyone apart from close relatives, or making any comments to the press.
An internal investigation carried out by Yves Rocher Vostok showed that the accusations were groundless and that no financial damage was inflicted. Nevertheless, Yves Rocher is taking an extremely passive position in court: it has not demanded that justice be restored and it has not filed a request to drop the case due to lack of grounds. With its inaction, Yves Rocher is allowing a political process to develop which will let Vladimir Putin dispose of his main and most principled opponent - Alexey Navalny.

Seems very odd to say that "Putin's main opponent" is a blogger.

Originally Posted by Hanna

But if the alleged victim doesn't have a complaint, then why prosecute?

Even if they decide they don't want the negative publicity - that's their call.

They DO have a complaint. It's one of their managers who doesn't make a final decision who just offered their CEO to cancel the complaints. So the complaint is still valid. Second, everyone somehow forgot that besides two sides: Yves Rocher and Navalny's company there's a third side which also got losses: Почта России. It's a state company where Navalny's brother worked. It's him who make sure that Navalny's company got this very questionable contract and for that he got 3 years of real prison sentence because it's a clear case of corruption.

Вкратце, насколько я понял из материалов дела в открытых источниках, схема была следующая:
У Ив Роше возникают проблемы с доставкой заказов клиентам через Почту России (что неудивительно, всем известно как она у нас работает). Олег Навальный, который на тот момент является в Почте России большой шишкой, настоятельно рекомендует Ив Роше заключить договор с коммерческой фирмой-посредником, через которую проводить все сделки с почтой России, во избежание дальнейших проблем с доставкой. Совершенно случайно эта волшебная компания, которая так замечательно умеет решать все проблемы с доставкой через Почту России принадлежит его родному брату Алексею. Договор заключается и компания Алексея за короткое время получает от Ив Роше около миллиона долларов за свои посреднические услуги по "решению проблем". Чтобы не платить налоги с прибыли, а также на всякий случай (вдруг лохи-французы поймут, что их обвели вокруг пальца и попросят деньги вернуть), фирмой Навального заключается договор аренды маленького помещения у фабрики, принадлежащей его родителям, с месячной ставкой в 30(!) раз превышающей рыночную. Соответственно, деньги со счёта фирмы Навального выводятся на счёт его родителей как плата за аренду помещения. Схемка в общем-то простая, как валенок, и такое происходит сплошь и рядом. И сажают за такие дела и чиновников-воришек, как брат Навального Олег, и и бизнесменов-решальщиков, как сам Навальный, каждый год десятками, если не сотнями. Вот только по поводу других никто не поднимает такой дикой истерики. В СССР за такие дела бы к стенке поставили сразу, а тут: "условно", домашний арест и всё такое. Было бы о чём кричать.

Ok I am very much in favour of Russia clamping down hard on corruption. As far as I am concerned, anyone corrupt should get a hard punishment until people get the message. It's pathetic that a European country is as corrupt as Russia apparently is. I am very glad that they are dealing with it.

The question is whether they would have prosecuted normal citizens for the crimes that Navalny and his brother apparently committed? Or did they get targetted because they are opposition figures?

I believe in honesty and transparency in politics and if the authorities want to stop Navalny's blog they should just be honest and say "this type of writing is illegal, cease it or you'll go to prison". Like China does.

On the other hand, I am aware that there is a huge media campaign in West against Russia, trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who opposes Putin is sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to the 19th century.

I am trying to figure out what happened here:

A corrupt person, who happens to be an anti-government person got justly sentenced for fraudulent business practices....?

Or an innocent anti-government blogger was targetted with trumped corruption charges to scare him off his anti-government activities.


And note: With the state of democracy in the EU, in Sweden and the UK I don't think I am in a position to point a finger at Russia. "Let him who is free from sin cast the first stone". Hence, I just want to understand what happened .

This is what I was talking about when I said earlier that there HAS to be more to the story than just inflating shipping charges. I've read Russian media but I didn't see any additional information there as compare to non Russia media.

On the other hand, I am aware that there is a huge media campaign in West against Russia, trying to depict a dictatorship in which anyone who opposes Putin is sent to a labour camp like some kind of flashback to the 19th century.

I would be interested to see any mainstream media that actually portrays this.

Originally Posted by bytemare

I would be interested to see any mainstream media that actually portrays this.

Putin just imprisoned an innocent man to silence his opposition-leader brother - Vox

Alexei Navalny, Enemy Of Vladimir Putin, Thrown In Jail On Way To Protest Rally In Moscow

Pussy Riot band members sent to remote prison camps | World news | The Guardian

Russia is built like a prison camp, says freed Pussy Riot member Nadezhda Tolokonnikova

Among Despots and Demagogues
Bland despoter och demagoger - DN.SE

This is mainstream media?

Oh well at least I can read about zombies one on of those sites. And see nice pictures of Taylor Swift

Originally Posted by bytemare

This is mainstream media?

Oh well at least I can read about zombies one on of those sites. And see nice pictures of Taylor Swift

No sorry, you are right. The reporting on Russia is very balanced, nuanced and fair.
Something that the free world and unbiased press can be really proud off.
A leader who has the support of 89% in his country is portrayed as a despot, in comparison with Obama who enjoys 25%.

Fair, free unbiased press. Move on people, no agitation here....




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