Thread: Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

Originally Posted by Doomer

If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?

I think he is fighting the government using its weakness, which is widespread corruption. And that is totally legitimate. He is definitely not fighting "Russian values" for the lack of this term. There's no such thing as national values. If you think I'm wrong, please name at least five Russian values and then five Chinese values. There are other national things, like national character, but no national values.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

There's no such thing as national values. If you think I'm wrong, please name at least five Russian values and then five Chinese values. There are other national things, like national character, but no national values.

If there is no such thing as national values then one would be more than enough, isn't it?
But I'll name two, easy ones
patriotism is first
culture will be second

Originally Posted by Doomer

If there is no such thing as national values then one would be more than enough, isn't it?
But I'll name two, easy ones
patriotism is first
culture will be second

So, based on what you just said, what are the Russian values? What Russian values does Navalniy fight?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, based on what you just said, what are the Russian values?

I hope you can read, they written above

Originally Posted by Crocodile

What Russian values does Navalniy fight?

both of what I wrote

Originally Posted by Doomer

both of what I wrote

I honestly fail to see how he does that. Also, those "values" are as much Russian as they are Chinese, Australian and Zulu. I want to see specific examples of how Navalniy fights culture. Is he burning books in public or something?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I honestly fail to see how he does that. Also, those "values" are as much Russian as they are Chinese, Australian and Zulu. I want to see specific examples of how Navalniy fights culture. Is he burning books in public or something?

Perhaps you would have wanted to see something like матрешка or олимпийский мишка but if the values can be used in any country it doesn't make them invaluable but makes more sense in them
Patriotism can be a value of any country but the way it's expressed is different in any country
He never has done anything to support patriotism in Russia but have done some things which considered anti-patriotic (by me at least) violation of Russian Coat of Arms is one of them

кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

Originally Posted by Crocodile

There's no such thing as national values.

Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Do you endorse that?

Of course I am.
It's a shame that it's a fake.
P.S. I'm joking of course.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

Entrepreneurialism and a "money is king" attitude are American values, I think.

But Russia is really diverse and had a relatively extreme and unusual history over the last 100 years. Maybe because of all the changes they've been through, it's just hard for them to identify with a particular national value.

But for what it's worth I think Russians seem relatively romantic about relationships, really value poetry and literature, and try to help out their family members throughout their lifetimes. They think it's important to always "be there" for their friends, regardless what the friend needs. And I think they value education a lot.

I am comparing to other European countries, particularly in Northern Europe and thoaw things are what stand out to me.

Originally Posted by Doomer

кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

Я знаю как некоторые могут играть словами, чтобы создавалось впечатление правдивости слов. И вот несколько соображений, которые не дают мне относиться к ролику серьёзно.

1.

"На сайте роспил . инфо висит красивая цифра: мы не дали украсть 338 миллионов рублей "

Где на сайте сказано, что эти 338 миллионов относятся именно к тому делу о котором идёт речь в ролике?


2.

"15 марта 2011 года ООО строительно-торговая компания "Мегатек" подало жалобу в комиссию УФАС..."
"жалоба А.А.Навльным была подана 28 марта 2011 года"

Хотелось бы, для начала, достоверно узнать, дейтвительно ли эти жалобы ПОДАНЫ (а не РАССМОТРЕНЫ) в указанные сроки, .


Ну а в конце порадовал комментарий

"Возможно, он это сделал для отчёта перед Заказчиком".

Тут открывается очень широкий простор для следствий. Например:

- значит и "Мегатек" подал жалобу (возможно) по заказу Заказчика

- если Навальный не исполняет с рвением заказы Заказчика,(а только лишь присваивает чужие заслуги, то есть фактически саботирует (возможную) подрывную деятельность Заказчика), значит он (возможно) таки работает на благо Родины.

ну и так далее.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

Is that really true? I would point out that Americans tend to value individualism over loyalty to the extended family/clan, for example. So isn't that an "American value"? (Although not in the sense of being exclusively American and not found at all in other nations -- only in the sense that it is characteristic of America [and some other countries], but is far from being globally universal.)

I see your point. In my opinion, a value is a social property, not a national property. Like, a democratic society would value individualism and the society of slaveholders would value obedience. Using a raw approximation, at the same point in time the Northern Americans valued equality whilst the Southern Americans valued bourne supremacy. I think, a nation is too broad a term, which spans multiple societies, cultures and subcultures.

Originally Posted by jnllll

ну и так далее.

Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

Originally Posted by Doomer

Perhaps you would have wanted to see something like матрешка or олимпийский мишка but if the values can be used in any country it doesn't make them invaluable but makes more sense in them

Please, remember that you're talking to a very simple-minded crocodile, so sometimes I have hard time following your lightning-fast and three-levels-deep thought. In such cases, you have to walk me through it in a simpler manner. How, on Earth, have you jumped from Navalniy's fight with the present Russian government to crocodile's probable perception of матрешка or олимпийский мишка? What do they have to do with each other? Btw, neither матрешка nor олимпийский мишка are values. The former is a toy and a latter is a mascot of Moscow Olympic Games of 1980.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Patriotism can be a value of any country but the way it's expressed is different in any country

Patriotism can only be a value in patriot's eyes. Or in the government officials' eyes in order to send the patriots to promote or defend those officials' interests. A value is a social property.

Originally Posted by Doomer

He never has done anything to support patriotism in Russia but have done some things which considered anti-patriotic (by me at least) violation of Russian Coat of Arms is one of them

кстати по поводу его яростной борьбы с коррупцией, тыц - Навальный - жулик. Доказано! - YouTube

Alright, so since you have cited a dirty propaganda, let me explain how the propaganda works using a simple example:

DOOMER DECEIVES RUSSIAN PATRIOTS - PROVEN

A Russian-speaking forum member Doomer repeatedly occused Navalniy of being non-patriotic. But, let's look at Doomer himself. He had specified his location as Chicago, IL. Doomer himself is not a Russian patriot because he left Russia and did not want to share the fate of his motherland during the turbulent times. He prefer to live in the US and is being paid US dollars. Can anybody expect Doomer to honestly care about Russian patriotism? Of course, not! Doomer is no judge for Navalniy who is getting prosecuted for his care for Russia. Unlike Doomer, Navalniy lives in Moscow and actively participates in the political life of his motherland. And Doomer is trying to disguise himself as a Russian patriot just to fight Navalniy and derail the real patriots' actions.

You see how the propaganda is being created? So, please do not insult the other forum member's intelligence by re-posting some dirty propaganda. Thanks in advance.

как я уже и говорил ранее: свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
если вы заметили я не стараюсь вас убедить что то что я говорю это истина, я лишь высказываю свое мнение
вы же постоянно требуете доказательств правоты моего мнения Если вы так уверены что правы вы, то зачем вам доказательства обратного?

I think I cannot be called patriot, I'll live with it. But I haven't created the video from the link I posted I just found it

Originally Posted by Doomer

как я уже и говорил ранее: свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
если вы заметили я не стараюсь вас убедить что то что я говорю это истина, я лишь высказываю свое мнение
вы же постоянно требуете доказательств правоты моего мнения Если вы так уверены что правы вы, то зачем вам доказательства обратного?

Because I hope we have a discussion. A sane discussion is different from the fanatics' slogans primarily in that each opinion should be logically [and otherwise] supported. Therefore, the point of the sane discussion is primarily to form an opinion and verify it. What if your opinion about Navalniy is totally right and mine is wrong? Whilst the dogmatic slogans exchange is more like: "I'm right and I don't listen to anybody, because I know I'm right. So, why are you asking me to support my opinion? I only want to express myself shouting out my slogans as loud as I can!" I mean, I don't think Navalniy is God, and, like I said, he managed to anger many people including myself. He had participated in a nationalistic Russian March thus aligning himself with the nationalists. And I'm not a nationalist, so I got angry of him. So, you're more than welcome to criticize my opinion (of course not using some dirty propaganda) and I am always happy to test my opinion for strength. And probably dump my opinion for yours.

Let's start from the beginning
here is my post which created the discussion
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine
I'm gonna re-phrase my thought
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"
I think he does not
I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ

Now let's see your point of view

Originally Posted by Doomer

Let's start from the beginning
here is my post which created the discussion
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine

You see, when I saw a word "analyze" I jumped. Wow! Someone else wants to analyze! I would really appreciate the analysis. So, in order to come to terms I started from the most obvious one - the term "Russian values" which seemed strange to me. Then the conversation drifted away to the Olympic mascot.

Originally Posted by Doomer

"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"

Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?

Originally Posted by Doomer

I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ

Right, and as those were tested for strength (by jnllll and me), you seemed to give up on both, did I get you right?

Originally Posted by Doomer

Now let's see you point of view

http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...73/#post226671

Start reading from: "Navalniy had done some practical work [...]"

Originally Posted by Doomer

I already asked if you actually read "the document" he provided and you didn't replay, why so?

I actually have => http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...tml#post226902

Originally Posted by Doomer

Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

Дело вовсе не в том, что есть разные мнения. (Я вообще не высказывал никакого мнения, а просто отметил сомнительность аргументации в ролике. В действительности, я не знаю кто прав - вы или Crocodile. )
Так вот, дело в том, что на подобные явления есть только одна - истинная - точка зрения. Потому что, к примеру, если в закрытой бочке сидит кошка, она останется кошкой независимо от того, какой версии придерживается каждый из отгадывающих загадку "Кто сидит в бочке?". И если эти отгадчики желают действительно разгадать загадку, то они должны обосновывать свои версии логически на основе фактов (о чём писал Crocodile), а не выражать свои мнения относительно того, кого бы они хотели увидеть в бочке.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?

I did, on the first page
Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

one more thing

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ну, не то, чтобы я сильно вчитывался... так, по диагонали. Что касается проверки документов, я полагаюсь на специалистов из УБЭП. Если документы не в порядке, тогда в проведении проверки было бы отказано, именно на основании неполности или сомнительности документов. А если проверку невозможно провести из-за того, что иностранные компании отказываются предоставлять свои документы, тогда именно это и должно говориться в заключении. Правильно? Проверка была проведена, и заключение гласит, что никаких нарушений не обнаружено.

you see, then people start repeating some BS w/o actually reading documents it may just become substitution of the truth

This is the link from the article you quoted about УБЭП - http://www.rbcdaily.ru/2010/01/27/finance/454822
And here is a quote from it
"Вчера на встрече консультационного совета топ-менеджеры ВТБ предоставили миноритариям решение УБЭП ГУВД г. Москвы по данным запросам, рассказал один из участников встречи. В заключении УБЭП говорится, что правоохранительные органы рассмотрели заявление г-на Навального и провели соответствующую проверку. В результате признаков состава преступления или правонарушения в действиях менеджеров банка ВТБ и «ВТБ Лизинг» не обнаружено, отчитались в УБЭП."
One guy presumably from that meeting told somebody that he saw the УБЭП conclusion and that conclusion says that there is no crime in actions of the management
1. The only thing which we have here are words from unknown person
2. That person may interpret the documents as he like if he actually saw the document
3. Let's assume that he did see it and let's assume that the document does say that
I just want to ask the big question what is the crime that Навальный found in the documents and how he can back up his words?
Because I went through those documents he posted and I've seen precisely zero evidence

BUT
here is another quote from the same link
«Поэтому решение УБЭП официальной важности не имеет», — считает Алексей Навальный.
So basically what he's saying is that УБЭП is bunch of incompetent morons who know nothing and have no authority
So step-by-step
1. He puts loads of shady documents on his site which prove nothing
2. He forces УБЭП to go through the documents
3. He gets obvious conclusion
4. And finally he says that conclusion has no authority

Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

Originally Posted by Doomer

I did, on the first page

Ok, seems like we're going in circles.