Thread: Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

Let's start from the beginning
here is my post which created the discussion
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine
I'm gonna re-phrase my thought
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"
I think he does not
I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ

Now let's see your point of view

Originally Posted by Doomer

Let's start from the beginning
here is my post which created the discussion
"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption or he's fighting against government and Russian values?"
The only part which caught your eye was Russian values, that's strange but that's fine

You see, when I saw a word "analyze" I jumped. Wow! Someone else wants to analyze! I would really appreciate the analysis. So, in order to come to terms I started from the most obvious one - the term "Russian values" which seemed strange to me. Then the conversation drifted away to the Olympic mascot.

Originally Posted by Doomer

"If one would analyse his actions one would ask a question to oneself: does he really fight against corruption"

Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?

Originally Posted by Doomer

I also posted the video about it and I also explained my thoughts (on the first page) about the way he delivers information to readers in ЖЖ

Right, and as those were tested for strength (by jnllll and me), you seemed to give up on both, did I get you right?

Originally Posted by Doomer

Now let's see you point of view

http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...73/#post226671

Start reading from: "Navalniy had done some practical work [...]"

Originally Posted by Doomer

I already asked if you actually read "the document" he provided and you didn't replay, why so?

I actually have => http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%B0%...tml#post226902

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Yay! Let's analyze his actions. Your phrase implied that you have done that analysis, so would you be kind enough to share it?

I did, on the first page
Алексей Анатольевич Навальный (Blogger Alexei Navalny)

one more thing

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ну, не то, чтобы я сильно вчитывался... так, по диагонали. Что касается проверки документов, я полагаюсь на специалистов из УБЭП. Если документы не в порядке, тогда в проведении проверки было бы отказано, именно на основании неполности или сомнительности документов. А если проверку невозможно провести из-за того, что иностранные компании отказываются предоставлять свои документы, тогда именно это и должно говориться в заключении. Правильно? Проверка была проведена, и заключение гласит, что никаких нарушений не обнаружено.

you see, then people start repeating some BS w/o actually reading documents it may just become substitution of the truth

This is the link from the article you quoted about УБЭП - http://www.rbcdaily.ru/2010/01/27/finance/454822
And here is a quote from it
"Вчера на встрече консультационного совета топ-менеджеры ВТБ предоставили миноритариям решение УБЭП ГУВД г. Москвы по данным запросам, рассказал один из участников встречи. В заключении УБЭП говорится, что правоохранительные органы рассмотрели заявление г-на Навального и провели соответствующую проверку. В результате признаков состава преступления или правонарушения в действиях менеджеров банка ВТБ и «ВТБ Лизинг» не обнаружено, отчитались в УБЭП."
One guy presumably from that meeting told somebody that he saw the УБЭП conclusion and that conclusion says that there is no crime in actions of the management
1. The only thing which we have here are words from unknown person
2. That person may interpret the documents as he like if he actually saw the document
3. Let's assume that he did see it and let's assume that the document does say that
I just want to ask the big question what is the crime that Навальный found in the documents and how he can back up his words?
Because I went through those documents he posted and I've seen precisely zero evidence

BUT
here is another quote from the same link
«Поэтому решение УБЭП официальной важности не имеет», — считает Алексей Навальный.
So basically what he's saying is that УБЭП is bunch of incompetent morons who know nothing and have no authority
So step-by-step
1. He puts loads of shady documents on his site which prove nothing
2. He forces УБЭП to go through the documents
3. He gets obvious conclusion
4. And finally he says that conclusion has no authority

Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

Originally Posted by Doomer

I did, on the first page

Ok, seems like we're going in circles.

Originally Posted by Doomer

I did, on the first page

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Ok, seems like we're going in circles.

so this is the only thing from my whole post which is interesting to you?
I don't see how we can have a discussion about analyzing which you calling me upon

Originally Posted by Doomer

Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

Снова создаётся впечатление, что вы вместо кошки хотите увидеть в бочке что-то другое.
Это ведь то самое другое (то есть отличное от вашего) мнение Навального, о существовании которого [мнения] вы говорили следующее

Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

И странно теперь слышать как вы отзываетесь об этом мнении подобным образом

Originally Posted by Doomer

Sounds like: все пи***, а я Д'Артаньян

Originally Posted by jnllll

И странно теперь слышать как вы отзываетесь об этом мнении подобным образом

это не мнение, мнение это когда никто не идет в правоохранительные органы
а когда идет, то такое мнение называется, в данном конкретном случае, бездоказательное обвинение или клевета

Originally Posted by Doomer

Свободное мнение это всегда хорошо
Особенно когда есть разные взгляды на одно и тоже

Дело вовсе не в том, что есть разные мнения. (Я вообще не высказывал никакого мнения, а просто отметил сомнительность аргументации в ролике. В действительности, я не знаю кто прав - вы или Crocodile. )
Так вот, дело в том, что на подобные явления есть только одна - истинная - точка зрения. Потому что, к примеру, если в закрытой бочке сидит кошка, она останется кошкой независимо от того, какой версии придерживается каждый из отгадывающих загадку "Кто сидит в бочке?". И если эти отгадчики желают действительно разгадать загадку, то они должны обосновывать свои версии логически на основе фактов (о чём писал Crocodile), а не выражать свои мнения относительно того, кого бы они хотели увидеть в бочке.

This is getting interesting! Obviously the article that I read about Navalny did not explain the full story about him.
And it is really very typical that he is presented as a modern day Russian folk hero, standing up against corruption and dictatorship..
When really, most regular Russians don't even like him! (judging from the comments here...)

Could you list the main irritating things that he done... I mean the things that made you dislike him?

I got:

He was inciting an Arab spring which might lead to civil war.
He is making accusations without proper supporting evidence..
Something that involved a drill and China... ?

What else?

Originally Posted by Hanna

What else?

a liar and an offender maybe?
Фальшивый адвокат Навальный / Новости / Труба — Карельская компьютерная сеть Ситилинк

Originally Posted by Doomer

a liar and an offender maybe?
Фальшивый адвокат Навальный / Новости / Труба — Карельская компьютерная сеть Ситилинк

maybe...

Хм.. У вас ещё есть сомнения? По-моему, анономному ролику надо доверять беспрекословно.

Oh dear.
Well, are you reading what non-Russian media are writing about him?

" Russian Opposition Leader Alexei Navalny: Uniting Nationalists and the Urban, Educated Middle Class "

" How Alexey Navalny is changing Putin's Russia "

" Russian protest hero Alexei Navalny presses on with anti-corruption efforts against oil firm "


There is a serious gap between what the Russians here are saying about Navalny and how he is presented in Western media.

I choose to believe the Russians at MR.

But this is like a case study for a Media in Politics class... What the h-ck is going on?

And meanwhile, according to RT.com:

" December was an Information War Against Russia "
‎

He's grouping around Russian nazi. Not a good move actually; that reveales he's becomning a politican not a simple civil activist.

После выборов Путина Навальному кранты. Думаю все эти выходки на Болотную и Сахарова так не останутся. Достаточно посмотерть как имеют, навример, Удальцова уже сейчас. Думаю надо задуматься, тем кто что-то пишет во всяких твиттерах-шмиттерах.

He's now sentenced to 5 years in prison for corruption!
(but he is an anti-corruption activists). Frankly this does not look very flattering for Russia. Is he locked up because he's a powerful opposition member, or is he a fraud and even corrupt himself?

I haven't followed this, and am not prejudiced, but I can definitely see how this will look in Western Media, and it seems suspect to me!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Is he locked up because he's a powerful opposition member, or is he a fraud and even corrupt himself?

Both things.
In fact, he's a swindler, but it was not proved by the court. I mean, it was not proved properly. So, although he's a little bit roguish, a judge acted in violation of the law.
I guess, if Navalny wanted to be a real activist, he had to pay more attention to his skeletons in the closet. Otherwise your enemies will try to use them against you. Sure thing.

The main cause of that process was to provide Russian TV a reason to say "you see, he is a corruptioner". Just keep in mind that Russian courts are definitely not a proper tool to identify corruption. With no exception, politics or not. The system of "justice" is 100% corrupt. Occasionally it can provide some adequate sentences for violent criminals (if they didn't bother to pay enough) but that is all.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Just keep in mind that Russian courts are definitely not a proper tool to identify corruption.

Ok since this is a language forum: Just have to laugh because this was such a typically [educated] British way of phrasing it. If you'd said "not quite" or "not necessarily" instead of "definitely", it would have been 100% UK British way of totally axing Russian courts for being extremely corrupt. I.e. the art of understatement, lol.
You say it, but you didn't actually say it... That's an aspect of (UK) English that most non-native speakers never learn, even after decades in Britain. Americans don't really use it either.

Originally Posted by Paul G.

Both things.
In fact, he's a swindler, but it was not proved by the court. I mean, it was not proved properly. So, although he's a little bit roguish, a judge acted in violation of the law.
I guess, if Navalny wanted to be a real activist, he had to pay more attention to his skeletons in the closet. Otherwise your enemies will try to use them against you. Sure thing.

Thanks for the input. It's interesting how different the perspective of "Western" media is vs, what Russians say on MR!

Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok since this is a language forum: Just have to laugh because this was such a typically [educated] British way of phrasing it. If you'd said "not quite" or "not necessarily" instead of "definitely", it would have been 100% UK British way of totally axing Russian courts for being extremely corrupt. I.e. the art of understatement, lol.
You say it, but you didn't actually say it... That's an aspect of (UK) English that most non-native speakers never learn, even after decades in Britain. Americans don't really use it either.

Don't you mean that the art of being direct is not quite a top priority in British tradition?

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Don't you mean that the art of being direct is not quite a top priority in British tradition?

Oh no, youtube quotes don't work anymore.. or is it just me?