Thread: Ukraine, the EU and Russia (suspension of EU - Ukraine talks)

Originally Posted by Hanna

People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

I don't know anout the "studies, followed by the UK" (here might come a "британские ученые" joke) but from my own experience german people are not happy with each other as I see the way they treat each other. In Germany there's worst service i ever dealt with.

What about Belarus. I'm not a biggest Lukashenko's fan, but i must admit that there are huge recent changes in belorussian economy.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

In order to find a country where the government is trying to retain the remnants of the economy that it has gambled away in the last two decades

Information in western media on Russia or belorussia these days are like 5-7 years late.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

What about Belarus. I'm not a biggest Lukashenko's fan, but i must admit that there are huge recent changes in belorussian economy. Information in western media on Russia or belorussia these days are like 5-7 years late.

Shortly before the 2010 presidential election average salaries in Belarus were increased by the government to $500 per month. It is believed to be one of the main reasons for the crisis in 2011.[14] Other reasons for the crisis were strong governmental control in the economy, a discount rate lower than inflation and the budget deficit.[15]

In January 2011 Belarusians started to convert their savings from belarusian rubles to dollars and euro. The situation was influenced by rumors of possible devaluation of the ruble.[16] Exchange rates in Belarus are centralized by the government-controlled National Bank of Belarus.[17] The National Bank was forced to spend $1 billion of the foreign reserves to balance the supply and demand of currency[16] On March 22 it stopped the support to banks.[16] The National Bank also didn't change the exchange rate significantly (3,000 BYR per dollar on January 1 and 3,045 BYR on April 1), so the increased demand of dollars and euro exhausted cash reserves of banks. In April and May 2011 many people had to wait for several days in queues to buy dollars in the exchange booths.[17] In April Belarusian banks were given informal permission of government to increase the exchange rate to 4,000 BYR for 1 dollar (later 4,500 BYR), but few people started to sell dollars and euro. On May 24 the ruble was officially devaluated by 36% (from 3,155 to 4,931 BYR per 1 dollar).[18] But the shortage of the currency retained. As a result of the shortage, a black market of currency was created. In July 2011 the black market exchange rate was nearly 6,350 BYR per 1 dollar,[19] in August it reached 9,000 BYR per 1 dollar.[20]

In September 2011 National Bank of Belarus introduced a free exchange market session to determine a market value of the ruble.[21] From November 2011 to March 2012 the exchange rate was 8,000—8,150 BYR per 1 dollar, but it started to rise in April 2012 and reached 8,360 BYR per 1 dollar on 10 July 2012.[22]

Economy of Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the "economy" the country has... Do I have to remind that for now, that rate is well over 9,300 BYR for $1 ? So, what were you saying about changes and outdated information? =))

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Economy of Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the "economy" the country has... Do I have to remind that for now, that rate is well over 9,300 BYR for $1 ? So, what were you saying about changes and outdated information? =))

By economy (maybe i used wrong word) I didn't mean currency exchange market and and other monetary indeces. I talk to people who live there.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

By economy (maybe i used wrong word) I didn't mean currency exchange market and and other monetary indeces. I talk to people who live there.

The funny thing is, so do I. =)) So, what do those people you talk to tell you?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

The funny thing is, so do I. =)) So, what do those people you talk to tell you?

People who used to go to work to Russia now have jobs in their country.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

People who used to go to work to Russia now have jobs in their country.

So they stopped going to Russia? If so, why? How are their wages compared to what they had in Russia?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

So they stopped going to Russia? If so, why? How are their wages compared to what they had in Russia?

It's hardly so that they make nearly same mone. But at least they can afford it to stay at home.

Like I said, I spent quite a while there, and reported a bit about it here at MR. (before the trolling started properly, and you could still have a interesting exchanges on this site)

The bigger cities in Belarus are renovated, clean, free of graffiti and very few ads.
Belarus is in a better state of repair/renovation than Ukraine.

It's true that their salaries are lower, but everything you need there, for everyday life, is subsidised. They are not paying market prices for a lot of things. The rents are extremely low, public transport is next to free, their jobs pay for room and board during their holidays etc, Healthcare, university etc free. So for everyday expenses they need less money. And everybody has a job, essentially.

I don't think the salaries there are lower than in places like Romania or Latvia. I'm pretty sure they are better off than Romanians and a lot of people in Ukraine. However, I think retired people on state pensions can just about make it through the month. That's not unique for Belarus though, and I understand that the older generation supports Lukashenko almost universally, regardless.

The problem kicks in if they want a new car, a lot of petrol, expensive electronic gadgets, designer clothes or a foreign holiday. Imported "luxury" stuff. I think there's also a housing shortage, not massive, but affecting young people.

I asked lots of people there what they thought about the current gov't because I was genuinely interested. About 70% were ok with it. Although they had some criticism they felt "better-the-devil-you-know" about Lukashenko. About 30% really hated Lukashenko, out of the people I spoke with. Those were younger people, in Minsk, essentially. One woman I spoke quite a lot with, in Minsk, said that she thought that Lukashenko was mentally ill, lol. However, she was upper middle class or whatever, in Belarus, and from what I could tell, her lifestyle was similar to my own, apart from she was annoyed that she couldn't afford chic holidays abroad. I respect everyone's view who lives ther and what goes on in Belarus is not my business who runs Belarus. But it p-sses me off that there are so many blatant lies about this country in European media.

Originally Posted by Hanna

The problem kicks in if they want a new car, a lot of petrol, expensive electronic gadgets, designer clothes or a foreign holiday. Imported "luxury" stuff. I think there's also a housing shortage, not massive, but affecting young people.

That kind of problem has been created artificially by their government, which I've been telling you several times now, but with no luck getting it through your pink colored glasses. The problem is that cars, "expensive electronic gadgets", designer clothes cost way more there than those in EU or in the U.S.! That's all because of the insane custom fees, tax rates for those resellers that sell them etc. Did you know that you cannot buy a car in that country for less than $5,000? (I mean a car that rides, of course) No matter how old it is, because the older a car is, the bigger custom fees they apply for it. Then, an iPad Air that you can buy for just $929 in the U.S. (128 GB, Wi-Fi + LTE) will cost you over $1,500 in that country!!! That's insane, especially considering how their salaries compare with the ones in the U.S.! A pair of Lewis jeans that you can get for $50-100 at any shopping mall in NY, will be priced at several hundred bucks in that country! Again, what a rich prosperous nation it must be to afford things at such prices... No wonder lots of people there hate that system and count days till its collapse.

Originally Posted by Hanna

People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

In Germany there's worst service i ever dealt with.

Very interesting, but that's not true.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

That kind of problem has been created artificially by their government, which I've been telling you several times now, but with no luck getting it through your pink colored glasses. The problem is that cars, "expensive electronic gadgets", designer clothes cost way more there than those in EU or in the U.S.! That's all because of the insane custom fees, tax rates for those resellers that sell them etc. Did you know that you cannot buy a car in that country for less than $5,000? (I mean a car that rides, of course) No matter how old it is, because the older a car is, the bigger custom fees they apply for it. Then, an iPad Air that you can buy for just $929 in the U.S. (128 GB, Wi-Fi + LTE) will cost you over $1,500 in that country!!! That's insane, especially considering how their salaries compare with the ones in the U.S.! A pair of Lewis jeans that you can get for $50-100 at any shopping mall in NY, will be priced at several hundred bucks in that country! Again, what a rich prosperous nation it must be to afford things at such prices... No wonder lots of people there hate that system and count days till its collapse.

Yes, because NOBODY can be TRULY happy and fulfilled in life until they have a pair of Levis, an iPad Air, purchased for the equivalent US retail price!

Get that wrong and you are doomed to eternal misery.... Thanks for clarifying that, "Eric".

Alles klar!


And as for your info on Belarus; the last time this topic came up, you claimed that Belarussians were not allowed to leave the country, until somebody corrected you. So it's nice that you have read up a bit.

If you want to convince anyone with your iPad example, please post links to a Belarussian, Russian, German and American vendor selling iPad Airs. We are all aware that electronics and clothes are more expensive in Europe for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons and there is nothing sinister about that.

Originally Posted by Hanna

If you want to convince anyone with your iPad example, please post links to a Belarussian, Russian, German and American vendor selling iPad Airs. We are all aware that electronics and clothes are more expensive in Europe for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons and there is nothing sinister about that.

iPad Air - Buy iPad Air with Free Shipping - Apple Store (U.S.) <--- The U.S. Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs $929)
iPad <--- The German Apple Stores' offer (the top one costs 869 Euros, or around $1173)
iPad Air – Купите iPad Air с бесплатной доставкой - Apple Store ( <--- The Russian Apple Stores' offer (you'll have to do some math there, the top one costs 36,990 Russian rubles, that will be around $1121)

Yes, in Russia you can get it for a lower price than in Germany, but I wasn't talking about Russia, was I? =))

Now, the most interesting part. There are no official Apple Stores in Belarus at all!!! What I've been able to find is some kind of "premium reseller store", but it's doubtful it even has that status. Anyway, here's the webpage:

iPad Air купить в Минске i-Store

Don't get shocked with what you see at the first glance, because their currency rates can actually shock anyone! So, that nice price tag of "12,299,000" in their local currency becomes $1317, by their current rates. More expensive than that in Russia, more expensive than that in Germany. Yes, my information about the $1,500 price was a bit outdated, but you've got the idea. =))

Originally Posted by Hanna

Thanks for clarifying that, "Eric".

And by the way, what kind of mean person does it take to be trying to insult someone by putting their name in quotes all the time?...

Лично я смотреть боюсь (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.





http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2013/11/30/7003663/










http://storify.com/alionamelnyk/poli...-ukraine-beate

Originally Posted by Lampada

Лично я смотреть боюсь (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.

Да уж. Беркут это вам не пацифисты из российской полиции.

Особого насилия, кстати, в видео нет.

тут насилия больше

I presume the joy from the discussion about whether Ukraine should or shouldn't get associated with the EU won't be full without this humble 900 PAGES (!) document about the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.

Originally Posted by DrBaldhead

I presume the joy from the discussion about whether Ukraine should or shouldn't get associated with the EU won't be full without this humble 900 PAGES (!) document about the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement.

Are there any Ukrainians reading this that can explain why any Ukrainians support joining the EU (calling it an 'Association?!?')? Can you not read up on how the system works, how the ones who run the EU are not elected, but appointed? How it's so ANTI-DEMOCRATIC, that many call it the EUSSR now? Do they not know about how many EU countries were not helped but crippled economically?!? Don't they know about Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy et al.?

It seems that there's just a lot of investment and funding by special interest groups that really want this to happen. Even Merkel voiced her displeasure to Yanukovich recently, saying she 'expected more.' That's like saying, what's taking so long?!? What a joke!

It would be interesting to hear from Ukrainians who read this thread to know what is behind their reasoning and why so many want to desperately join this banking cabal. Do they think their lives will improve? Is it to get further away from Russian influence? They would be moving from one problematic situation to a worse one, imho.

Edit: I bet no one will read that document. I guess they try to make it as long and convoluted as possible.

Live from Kiev

Originally Posted by Lampada

Лично я смотреть боюсь (нервы слабоваты на насилие), но всё равно действия властей осуждаю.

1. Звучит как "не читал, но осуждаю" из анекдота про Солженицина.
2. В драке два участника. Оба агрессивны, оба вооружены. Почему вы осуждаете одного из них, а не обоих или никого из них?