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Thread: Ukraine, the EU and Russia (suspension of EU - Ukraine talks)

  1. #21
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    The article is from Radio Free Europe, for Gosh's sake! Are you serious?!

    Just what the Ukrainians need, huh? Americans telling them what to do. Because it always ends up so well when the USA interferes on other continents.

    No wonder Radio "Free" Europe doesn't want Ukraine to to be close to the EU or Russia! Go figure!
    It wants Ukraine to lick the US butt, while being a super-cheap outsourcing country, in debt to US banks and hosting a few US military bases on the border to Russia.

    Next time, please quote a source that is not financed by an intelligence service.
    I don't care where it's from. The article is found on other sites and it's to demonstrate how much pressure (and PROPAGANDA) the Ukrainians are getting to choose the EU.

  2. #22
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    Об украинцах я бы не волновался. Чем бы дело не закончилось, Украина будет в выигрыше. Не на тех напали!

    "Проиграл ли, выиграл ли Карлсон, он всегда сияет, как начищенный пятак"
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

  3. #23
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    These Ukrainians are, sadly, uninformed. Perhaps, they need to figure things out, maybe watch some youtube videos of 'EUSSR' and ask some Britons what they think of the EU. At last check, many want to leave. They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave.

    Norway is not part of the EU and they are not struggling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrBCaB_mRFg

    The Orange Revolution was a farce and so will this be.

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    По моим ощущениям на Украине в ЕС хотят подонки-нацисты и идиоты-лирики. Украина долго играла с Россией в игру под названием "дайте низкие цены на газ и откройте свой рынок для наших металлургов, так как мы с вами братья-славяне". Путин, будучи идиотом, конечно поддавался на эту уловку, и выполнял их условия. Янукович думал, что и сейчас этот приём сработает, но Путин дал понять, что он перестанет поддерживать экономику Украины, если Украина попытается сидеть на двух стульях.
    Лично я может и хотел бы посмотреть на крушение иллюзий украинцев по поводу ЕС, но продвижения НАТО на восток не хотел бы. Россию никто экономически не поддерживал извне, как мы Украину и Белоруссию. Поэтому мы избавились от иллюзий по отношению к Западу. А украинцы (особенно западные) ещё мечтают. Первая их мечта: вечно сидеть на нашей газовой трубе. Вторая мечта: получить с Запада дешёвые товары. Вообще, надо учитывать менталитет украинцев. Для этого достаточно почитать Гоголя (например, "Вечера на хуторе близ Деканьки"). Их национальный приоритет - это дешёвое сало, горилка, возможность с важным видом называть себя панами. Насчёт горилки я слышал, что на Украине разрешено самогоноварение (самодельное изготовление водки). Насчёт сала - это газовая труба и ЕС. Насчёт панов - это нежелание дружить с Россией (так как друзья равны, а панство равенства не подразумевает).

  5. #25
    Завсегдатай Antonio1986's Avatar
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    As a Cypriot my simple advice to Ukraine is: Stay away from European Union.
    Just form a Trade Union with EU where products, services, labor and capital will move freely.
    Nothing more, nothing less.
    Чем больше слов, тем меньше они стоят.

  6. #26
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    По моим ощущениям на Украине в ЕС хотят подонки-нацисты и идиоты-лирики. Украина долго играла с Россией в игру под названием "дайте низкие цены на газ и откройте свой рынок для наших металлургов, так как мы с вами братья-славяне". Путин, будучи идиотом, конечно поддавался на эту уловку, и выполнял их условия. Янукович думал, что и сейчас этот приём сработает, но Путин дал понять, что он перестанет поддерживать экономику Украины, если Украина попытается сидеть на двух стульях.
    Лично я может и хотел бы посмотреть на крушение иллюзий украинцев по поводу ЕС, но продвижения НАТО на восток не хотел бы. Россию никто экономически не поддерживал извне, как мы Украину и Белоруссию. Поэтому мы избавились от иллюзий по отношению к Западу. А украинцы (особенно западные) ещё мечтают. Первая их мечта: вечно сидеть на нашей газовой трубе. Вторая мечта: получить с Запада дешёвые товары. Вообще, надо учитывать менталитет украинцев. Для этого достаточно почитать Гоголя (например, "Вечера на хуторе близ Деканьки"). Их национальный приоритет - это дешёвое сало, горилка, возможность с важным видом называть себя панами. Насчёт горилки я слышал, что на Украине разрешено самогоноварение (самодельное изготовление водки). Насчёт сала - это газовая труба и ЕС. Насчёт панов - это нежелание дружить с Россией (так как друзья равны, а панство равенства не подразумевает).
    По-моему, такое называлось великодержавным шовинизмом.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonio1986 View Post
    As a Cypriot my simple advice to Ukraine is: Stay away from European Union.
    Just form a Trade Union with EU where products, services, labor and capital will move freely.Nothing more, nothing less.
    Так им и предлагают открыть границу для товаров из ЕС (а не членство в ЕС). По этой причине Россия и закроет границу с Украиной (чтобы товары из ЕС не хлынули к нам). Это Украина и называет давлением со стороны России.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    По-моему, такое называлось великодержавным шовинизмом.
    Шовинизм у меня или у Гоголя?

  8. #28
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Norway is not part of the EU and they are not struggling. .
    As a Scandinavian you know perfectly well that they won jackpot in the oil lottery, and if it wasn't for that, they'd be begging to join the EU. Their only other natural resource is fish, and that's where their previous expertise laid. When the oil runs out, they will join the EU or whatever has replaced it.

    ask some Britons what they think of the EU. At last check, many want to leave. They even want a referendum giving them the right to leave.
    That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.

    The UK is used to running things, but is only the 3rd biggest country/economy in the EU, and has to compromise and work with French, Germans and others as equal. Having to compromise with Germans and others is just a bit of a blow to national self esteem.

    Another reason is that Britain uses different measurements, drives on the other side of the road, has different electronic plugs and some other aspects that don't gel well with the EU - and that the EU has tried to change, to the fury of many here. Again it's minor stuff. Educated people in the UK know that regardless of their feelings about it, it's not feasible to leave the EU at this point and nobody has any illusions that it will happen any time soon. Hell will freeze over before there is a refendum - or they will announce a referendum when they are already certain what the outcome will be.

    The situation with Cyprus may be different - I'm not up to scratch, likewise a few countries in Eastern Europe who got a more favourable assesment than they perhaps should have, for political/ideological reasons. And a few countries in Southern Europe who cooked the books together with Goldman Sachs, to qualify for the Euro, when really they did not meet the requirements.

    As for Ukraine: If it completely turned its back on Russia (and sorted out a few other things) I am sure things would be back on track. I visited both Ukraine and Romania in 2011 and my impression was that Ukraine was in a better shape economically than Romania which qualified for the EU. Unlike Turkey, Ukraine is fully located in Europe and has a Christian heritage (some EU countries are against Turkey for these two reasons). Ukraine's human rights may not be world class but it's probably better than Turkey and no worse than Romania.

    If not a full membership, then certainly free trade and a customs union in a longer perspective.

    Latvia is another example of an ex USSR country that qualified and completely turned its back on Russia.
    Perhaps a fraction better off than Ukraine, from the point of view of a visitor, but not much.
    Social benefits in Latvia consists of a sack of oatmeal for food and a couple of hundred dollars to cover rent according to a man I spoke with. He was a perfectly competent techie, but unable to get a job and support himself were he lived.

    I would be extremely surprised, if Latvia's factories are EU standard. Parts of the country is literally falling to pieces because they haven't done maintenance in 25 years. It was quite shocking to see. People living in absolute squalor next to a site where the EU is spending big bucks on renovating some old fortress that few would care about and that can surely wait a few more years.

    If Ukraine REALLY wanted to, it could become a partner, or a member - I think.
    Whether it would help the economy is another story. Like Antonio said - it was a recipe for disaster, for some, and it leaves the door open for exploitation as people in Romania are saying.
    Plus, it would be at the expense of relations with Russia.

    I don't care either way; I just want the people in Ukraine to have more hope for a good future. I think they need to choose East or West and the sooner they do it, the better.
    maxmixiv likes this.

  9. #29
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    As a Scandinavian you know perfectly well that they won jackpot in the oil lottery, and if it wasn't for that, they'd be begging to join the EU. Their only other natural resource is fish, and that's where their previous expertise laid. When the oil runs out, they will join the EU or whatever has replaced it.

    That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.

    The UK is used to running things, but is only the 3rd biggest country/economy in the EU, and has to compromise and work with French, Germans and others as equal. Having to compromise with Germans and others is just a bit of a blow to national self esteem.

    Another reason is that Britain uses different measurements, drives on the other side of the road, has different electronic plugs and some other aspects that don't gel well with the EU - and that the EU has tried to change, to the fury of many here. Again it's minor stuff. Educated people in the UK know that regardless of their feelings about it, it's not feasible to leave the EU at this point and nobody has any illusions that it will happen any time soon. Hell will freeze over before there is a refendum - or they will announce a referendum when they are already certain what the outcome will be.

    The situation with Cyprus may be different - I'm not up to scratch, likewise a few countries in Eastern Europe who got a more favourable assesment than they perhaps should have, for political/ideological reasons. And a few countries in Southern Europe who cooked the books together with Goldman Sachs, to qualify for the Euro, when really they did not meet the requirements.

    As for Ukraine: If it completely turned its back on Russia (and sorted out a few other things) I am sure things would be back on track. I visited both Ukraine and Romania in 2011 and my impression was that Ukraine was in a better shape economically than Romania which qualified for the EU. Unlike Turkey, Ukraine is fully located in Europe and has a Christian heritage (some EU countries are against Turkey for these two reasons). Ukraine's human rights may not be world class but it's probably better than Turkey and no worse than Romania.

    If not a full membership, then certainly free trade and a customs union in a longer perspective.

    Latvia is another example of an ex USSR country that qualified and completely turned its back on Russia.
    Perhaps a fraction better off than Ukraine, from the point of view of a visitor, but not much.
    Social benefits in Latvia consists of a sack of oatmeal for food and a couple of hundred dollars to cover rent according to a man I spoke with. He was a perfectly competent techie, but unable to get a job and support himself were he lived.

    I would be extremely surprised, if Latvia's factories are EU standard. Parts of the country is literally falling to pieces because they haven't done maintenance in 25 years. It was quite shocking to see. People living in absolute squalor next to a site where the EU is spending big bucks on renovating some old fortress that few would care about and that can surely wait a few more years.

    If Ukraine REALLY wanted to, it could become a partner, or a member - I think.
    Whether it would help the economy is another story. Like Antonio said - it was a recipe for disaster, for some, and it leaves the door open for exploitation as people in Romania are saying.
    Plus, it would be at the expense of relations with Russia.

    I don't care either way; I just want the people in Ukraine to have more hope for a good future. I think they need to choose East or West and the sooner they do it, the better.
    LOL! Norway would be begging while several countries in the EU are near bankruptcy and would be already under if not for being enslaved by IMF loans/bankers?!? Please...

    'That's because Britain is not yet over losing the empire, and because of the close ties with other English speaking countries, particularly USA and the Commonwealth. It's not because Brits have anything against free trade at all.'
    LOL! That's ridiculous. They know the EU is a sham and they see what happens with other countries which become slaves to the EU system. Check EUSSR videos and notice how the overwhelming pattern is that those in charge are not elected but appointed. The freedoms are reduced or eliminated and 'free trade?' LOL! Tell that to every country not named Germany.

    (Deleted. L.)
    Last edited by Lampada; November 27th, 2013 at 01:40 AM. Reason: Переход на личности против правил форума

  10. #30
    Завсегдатай Basil77's Avatar
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    A couple of pictures to the topic :



    Hanna and RedFox like this.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

  11. #31
    Hanna
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    I think those pictures says it all.

    Maybe another picture is needed, in which Ukraine can't unite on this, splits up and each side joins the group they prefer. Tragic, but it's happened to countries before.

    And perhaps another picture, where Ukraine finds some new friends altogether!?

    I think the truth of the matter is that you have to be part of an economic block these days, and have some solid allies. Wish it weren't so, but it is. Particularly for a "new" country like Ukraine.

    What about Belarus?
    We know that the EU absolutely HATES Lukashenko and is convinced that Belarus is completely undemocratic (I don't think that's necessarily true; there are different types of freedom - anyway it's the Belarussians problem, not the EUs.)

    But Belarus is also not on the best of terms with Russia - so maybe Ukraine can also look at how to work closer with Belarus? Not exactly a substitute for the EU or Russia, but at least a "friendly neighbour".

    Kazakhstan, Turkey, Iran are not too far away and not closely aligned to either bloc and might also be open for co-operation.
    Not sure what Ukraine has to offer but no doubt, something.
    (just thinking, if there is a third way for Ukraine, since the Russia-Ukraine-EU unhappy triangle drama has been going on for a decade now.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I think those pictures says it all.
    По-моему, карикатуры говорят не всё. На Украине официальная пропаганда говорит следующее: "мы всей душой хотим в ЕС, а Россия грубо не пускает нас туда, используя экономические рычаги". На картинках украинец не знает, что выбрать, а в реальности голова украинца уже в ЕС, а грубая реальность не пускает его туда.
    Получается шизофрения: мечты расходятся с реальностью. И эту шизофрению поддерживает официальная пропаганда Украины.

    Кажется Стросс Кан сказал, что "глобализация - это война". Когда-то немцы начинали войну ради того, чтобы другие европейцы работали за копейки на их заводах. Теперь глобализация позволяет достигать тот же эффект без войны. Треть населения Литвы уехало из страны ради поиска работы. То же ждёт и Украину.

  13. #33
    Почётный участник eisenherz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Юрка View Post
    "... Когда-то немцы начинали войну ради того, чтобы другие европейцы работали за копейки на их заводах ...
    Now Germany is to blame for the poor wages in other countries?? You mean that one country with the hard-working, efficient and savings-orientated people and a very disciplined fiscal policy?
    please always correct my (often poor) russian

  14. #34
    Почтенный гражданин DrBaldhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenherz View Post
    Now Germany is to blame for the poor wages in other countries?? You mean that one country with the hard-working, efficient and savings-orientated people and a very disciplined fiscal policy?
    You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.

  15. #35
    Почётный участник eisenherz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrBaldhead View Post
    You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.
    Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.
    please always correct my (often poor) russian

  16. #36
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenherz View Post
    Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.
    Yes, it's the sunnier side of globalisation, and there are many very good sides to Germany and Germans. But the whole debate of who are the good guys/bad guys in the EU and who's ripping off, cheating or exploiting whom is a separate topic. It's not about the Germans per se. If I was you btw, I'd worry more about why there are still foreign army bases in my country....

    Another side of this debate is; exactly what's "poor" or "rich?" Is it job security, work-life balance, health, roof over your head and food on the table...
    Or is it having a BMW, designer clothes, credit card debts, TV games and a huge mortgage but no job security, and ruining your health from stress and poor habits.
    People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.

    But all this is another topic, and point taken, that you don't appreciate your country (?) being slandered.

    I understand there is A LOT of resentment against Germany in Southern Europe and Eastern Europe.
    Spent an hour waiting on a train in Romania, listening to a guy who spoke really good English explain how the EU had done absolutely nothing to Romania, was treating them like second class citizens and idiots according to him, and how he'd even started to re-think his previous rejection of socialism in his country. Had never expected to hear anything like that - and this person is probably not alone in is views. Every other interview from Greece or Spain contains a snidy or angry comment about Germany.

    It's very visible in Eastern Europe, it's full of Lidl, T Mobile, Big EU banks, McDonalds and lots of well known Western European or American brands for everything under the sun. I am not seeing THEIR brands, like you do in other parts of the world. In order to find a country that's not littered with ads for EU/US brands and trying to use their own products and services, you have to go to Belarus.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.
    More miserable than those in Spain or Greece? o_O

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    In order to find a country that's not littered with ads for EU/US brands and trying to use their own products and services, you have to go to Belarus.
    Would you mind a few minor corrections here? --> In order to find a country where the government is trying to retain the remnants of the economy that it has gambled away in the last two decades by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.

  18. #38
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.
    1) I'd rather call the price level of their local stuff "ridiculously low". But the economic policies of Belarus is another story, and best explained by somebody from there, I think.

    2) Why don't you leave it to the Belarussians to condemn their government, or not. They don't need you to speak for them. I was just stating an objective truth; compared with other countries in the region, they have less EU/global brands, and ads for it. However, if you want it, you can find designer/brand stuff at roughly EU prices, in Minsk, and a couple of McDonald's. Personally, I'd rather live in Belarus than Romania after seeing both. Despite their EU membership, Romania is in a much worse state.

    As for contentment with the government and democracy, I think you'd have to look pretty hard to find anyone in Romania who thinks their government is doing a good job, or that "democracy" there is a success. And that's 25 years after they hung Ceusescu from a lamp post. The Germans re-built their entire country from rubble in less than that time - both east and west. So clearly something is a little bit off in Romania.

    My point is that the Ukrainians should just bear in mind that although EU is a great peace project, it's not a ticket to economic success, as the Greek, Spaniards, Romanians, Latvians and others can confirm.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    I'd rather call the price level of their local stuff "ridiculously low"
    If you were reading that post properly, you would've probably noticed that I wasn't talking about their "local stuff", but actually the "imported stuff" their local producers feel jealous about and thus cause the enormously big custom rates for, making it more expensive than anywhere near that country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Personally, I'd rather live in Belarus than Romania after seeing both.
    The truth is, you don't wanna live in either one. Unless you externally bring some funds with you there, your survival will be nearly impossible.

  20. #40
    Hanna
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    The "expert" has spoken.

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