You mean those who made millions of working hands all over Europe and beyond unneeded and worthless? Don't take it personally, the corporations are to blame in any case. Yet I admit that it would be dumb to blame efficient people for being too efficient.Originally Posted by eisenherz
Hi, i do not think it is fair of me to debate this here as it would sidetrack from the Ukraine-topic of the thread; however think of the many German firms (BMW, VW, Bosch, ZF etc) that at least provide for some employment with relatively decent salary in many countries around the world (from Slovakia to South Africa, Brazil and Mexico and many countries inbetween, that would be the poorer if it was not for them.
please always correct my (often poor) russian
Yes, it's the sunnier side of globalisation, and there are many very good sides to Germany and Germans. But the whole debate of who are the good guys/bad guys in the EU and who's ripping off, cheating or exploiting whom is a separate topic. It's not about the Germans per se. If I was you btw, I'd worry more about why there are still foreign army bases in my country....
Another side of this debate is; exactly what's "poor" or "rich?" Is it job security, work-life balance, health, roof over your head and food on the table...
Or is it having a BMW, designer clothes, credit card debts, TV games and a huge mortgage but no job security, and ruining your health from stress and poor habits.
People in Germany come out the most miserable in Europe, in a lot of studies, followed by the UK.
But all this is another topic, and point taken, that you don't appreciate your country (?) being slandered.
I understand there is A LOT of resentment against Germany in Southern Europe and Eastern Europe.
Spent an hour waiting on a train in Romania, listening to a guy who spoke really good English explain how the EU had done absolutely nothing to Romania, was treating them like second class citizens and idiots according to him, and how he'd even started to re-think his previous rejection of socialism in his country. Had never expected to hear anything like that - and this person is probably not alone in is views. Every other interview from Greece or Spain contains a snidy or angry comment about Germany.
It's very visible in Eastern Europe, it's full of Lidl, T Mobile, Big EU banks, McDonalds and lots of well known Western European or American brands for everything under the sun. I am not seeing THEIR brands, like you do in other parts of the world. In order to find a country that's not littered with ads for EU/US brands and trying to use their own products and services, you have to go to Belarus.
More miserable than those in Spain or Greece? o_O
Would you mind a few minor corrections here? --> In order to find a country where the government is trying to retain the remnants of the economy that it has gambled away in the last two decades by enforcing local stuff of poor quality in stores and imposing incredibly high tax rates on imported stuff so it gets ridiculously expensive, AND people who truly hate that government for that -- you have to go to Belarus.
1) I'd rather call the price level of their local stuff "ridiculously low". But the economic policies of Belarus is another story, and best explained by somebody from there, I think.
2) Why don't you leave it to the Belarussians to condemn their government, or not. They don't need you to speak for them. I was just stating an objective truth; compared with other countries in the region, they have less EU/global brands, and ads for it. However, if you want it, you can find designer/brand stuff at roughly EU prices, in Minsk, and a couple of McDonald's. Personally, I'd rather live in Belarus than Romania after seeing both. Despite their EU membership, Romania is in a much worse state.
As for contentment with the government and democracy, I think you'd have to look pretty hard to find anyone in Romania who thinks their government is doing a good job, or that "democracy" there is a success. And that's 25 years after they hung Ceusescu from a lamp post. The Germans re-built their entire country from rubble in less than that time - both east and west. So clearly something is a little bit off in Romania.
My point is that the Ukrainians should just bear in mind that although EU is a great peace project, it's not a ticket to economic success, as the Greek, Spaniards, Romanians, Latvians and others can confirm.
If you were reading that post properly, you would've probably noticed that I wasn't talking about their "local stuff", but actually the "imported stuff" their local producers feel jealous about and thus cause the enormously big custom rates for, making it more expensive than anywhere near that country.
The truth is, you don't wanna live in either one. Unless you externally bring some funds with you there, your survival will be nearly impossible.
I don't know anout the "studies, followed by the UK" (here might come a "британские ученые" joke) but from my own experience german people are not happy with each other as I see the way they treat each other. In Germany there's worst service i ever dealt with.
What about Belarus. I'm not a biggest Lukashenko's fan, but i must admit that there are huge recent changes in belorussian economy.
Information in western media on Russia or belorussia these days are like 5-7 years late.
Economy of Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaShortly before the 2010 presidential election average salaries in Belarus were increased by the government to $500 per month. It is believed to be one of the main reasons for the crisis in 2011.[14] Other reasons for the crisis were strong governmental control in the economy, a discount rate lower than inflation and the budget deficit.[15]
In January 2011 Belarusians started to convert their savings from belarusian rubles to dollars and euro. The situation was influenced by rumors of possible devaluation of the ruble.[16] Exchange rates in Belarus are centralized by the government-controlled National Bank of Belarus.[17] The National Bank was forced to spend $1 billion of the foreign reserves to balance the supply and demand of currency[16] On March 22 it stopped the support to banks.[16] The National Bank also didn't change the exchange rate significantly (3,000 BYR per dollar on January 1 and 3,045 BYR on April 1), so the increased demand of dollars and euro exhausted cash reserves of banks. In April and May 2011 many people had to wait for several days in queues to buy dollars in the exchange booths.[17] In April Belarusian banks were given informal permission of government to increase the exchange rate to 4,000 BYR for 1 dollar (later 4,500 BYR), but few people started to sell dollars and euro. On May 24 the ruble was officially devaluated by 36% (from 3,155 to 4,931 BYR per 1 dollar).[18] But the shortage of the currency retained. As a result of the shortage, a black market of currency was created. In July 2011 the black market exchange rate was nearly 6,350 BYR per 1 dollar,[19] in August it reached 9,000 BYR per 1 dollar.[20]
In September 2011 National Bank of Belarus introduced a free exchange market session to determine a market value of the ruble.[21] From November 2011 to March 2012 the exchange rate was 8,000—8,150 BYR per 1 dollar, but it started to rise in April 2012 and reached 8,360 BYR per 1 dollar on 10 July 2012.[22]
That's the "economy" the country has... Do I have to remind that for now, that rate is well over 9,300 BYR for $1 ? So, what were you saying about changes and outdated information? =))
By economy (maybe i used wrong word) I didn't mean currency exchange market and and other monetary indeces. I talk to people who live there.
The funny thing is, so do I. =)) So, what do those people you talk to tell you?
Very interesting, but that's not true.
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