Thread: Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-resultsd

yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).

Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
[8:57:07] XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
[9:10:18] XXXX: И такой жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать

Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine? Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.

By the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding immigrants and "multiculturalism." Even western media reports such incidents and attitudes. This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere in the world. For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national origin and sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by bytemare

yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).

Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
[8:57:07] XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
[9:10:18] XXXX: И такой жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать

Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine? Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.

By the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding immigrants and "multiculturalism." Even western media reports such incidents and attitudes. This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere in the world. For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national origin and sexual orientation.

Yes, of course I know of the issues with immigration and racism in the EU.

As for the Ukrainian perspective - well I don't have to read Ukrainian perspectives for that. There are pro-Ukraine (i.e. current Kiev government, also pro USA agenda) article in every newspaper and TV channel around me. I can get it in every different language that I speak. So I am well aware what the narrative is.

However, after looking into it, and trying to form my own opinion amidst all the propganda, I have come to the conclusion that my opinion is:

• Western Ukrainians are being manipulated to support the US and EU agenda in relation to Russia and geopolitics in Eastern Ukraine.
• They lost a lot more than they gained by this coup d'etat, and it's becoming more evident every day.
• Some people are fooled by general naivité in respect to the EU and the USA, and their real objectives in Ukraine.
• Some are genuine Ukrainian nationalists, which I respect, even though it means they won't be able to share a state with other parts of the nation, who don't share their view on history, language and culture. Not everyone within their current borders wants to play Ukrainian nationalist, speak Ukrainian and partcipate in Russia-bashing. Particularly if they are in fact Russian, Jewish, Moldovan etc. If that's the country they want to be, they may need to shrink the country a bit and let others go their own way.
• It's ludicrous to imagine that the Ukraine can join the EU in the next 15 years, even if they started preparing tomorrow. It can't happen for more reasons than I care to list, and it's shameless of the EU to dangle this unrealistic goal, when it knows perfectly well what the reality is. In addition, the values that are supported by quite a few in Western Ukraine (ultra nationalism and nazi adoration) are not normally acceptable in the EU.
• Russia has not acted with complete integrity either! Russia could have done more to calm down the situation in Eastern Ukraine, if it wanted. It has, if anything, spurred the rebels on.
• It's unfair to allow the situation in Donbass to escalate, keep condemning and blackpainting the government in Kiev, then suddenly turn a cold shoulder and ignore pleas for annexation or support, coming from the Donbass.
• Moscow is playing some kind of game here too, for sure! The only mitigating circumstance is that Russia didn't start all this, the West did. Russia is responding to a situation, it did not instigate it.
• I also see that personal finances is behind a lot of what's going on in Eastern Ukraine. People's nationalities are not a clearcut question, and many are willing to go with whatever offers them the most money in their pocket at the end of the day - which is understandable.

I'm finding the whole situation disturbing and uppsetting.
I don't want to put my nose where it's not wanted. Now that I have formed my own view of it, I guess it's just a matter of waiting and seeing what happens with the election and the People's republics....

Originally Posted by Hanna

It's unfair to allow the situation in Donbass to escalate, keep condemning and blackpainting the government in Kiev, then suddenly turn a cold shoulder and ignore pleas for annexation or support, coming from the Donbass.

This is indeed a huge moral dilemma Russia faces. But Putin was very specific that the accretion of the whole Novorissiya to Ukraine and not just two of its constituent regions was the historic blunder. Thus, the task at hand as he sees it is to liberate the rest of the disputed territories, and only then he will accede to embrace the newly fledged province to Russia. The process is in the making now. Contrariwise, once he were to artificially splinter off Donbass from Novorissiya, the remaining part of it would be under severe duress of unmitigated suffering of not being able to satisfy its so much cherished yet unattainable yearning to join Russia. President of Russia simply can’t afford such a myopic stance. How can he explain away his hastiness to future generations?

Originally Posted by diogen_

This is indeed a huge moral dilemma Russia faces. But Putin was very specific that the accretion of the whole Novorissiya to Ukraine and not just two of its constituent regions was the historic blunder. Thus, the task at hand as he sees it is to liberate the rest of the disputed territories, and only then he will accede to embrace the newly fledged province to Russia. The process is in the making now. Contrariwise, once he were to artificially splinter off Donbass from Novorissiya, the remaining part of it would be under severe duress of unmitigated suffering of not being able to satisfy its so much cherished yet unattainable yearning to join Russia. President of Russia simply can’t afford such a myopic stance. How can he explain away his hastiness to future generations?

Oh I didn't know he had said that. So maybe he's waiting. That's quite a game of dare he's playing then.
If he can pull that off, then Russia has well and truly arrived, and Putin will be legend. Completely notwithstanding any ethical considerations, it would be pure genius to get not only Crimea, but the whole "Novorossiya" without meeting any meaningful resistance.

While the US shows the world again and again how utterly incompetent they are att understanding any people at all, outside their own borders. Unless of course the destruction and suffering they are causing is deliberate.

In that case, will Putin draw the line with Pridnestrovie, or not?
That's officially Moldova, a different country, although not NATO and not EU.

(I have actually been in Pridnestrovie, and those people LOVE Russia and they also idolize the Soviet Union. They are not even ethnic Russians, most of them, but they love it anyway. They have big banners all around town in Tiraspol and Bender, saying nice things about Russia... It's a very fascinating place - but does not appear on any map, hence I did not actually know it was there, until I was told I needed a "visa" for it, in order to travel from Kishinev to Odessa. w00t! It turned out to be a quite unique place of very independent minded and cool people. They have something in common with the People's Republics in Lugansk and Donetsk, I think.)

If Putin does NOT plan to do anything more in Ukraine, because he's suddenly decided that he DOES respect the borders of Ukraine, then I think the decent thing to do would be to try to calm things down in Ukraine to the very best of Russia's ability. Washington is right on one question - of course the "people's republics" would listen, if Russia told them in no uncertain terms!

It's not right to let people ruin their own lives, destroy their communities and have lives lost for a hopeless cause. If Putin knows he will never annex, he should try to patch things up within the existing borders, rather than letting things progress any further. Anything else is just spiteful and cruel!

But what about Odessa, at the Westernmost tip of "Novorossiya". It has no people's republic and although they speak Russian, how much do they identify with Russia? Would they really welcome Russia, if that is the end game of all this?