Thread: Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-resultsd

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

Kepler 186f is Earth-sized and in the habitable zone.

reminds me of Kepler 62f; pity 62f and 186f are somewhat heavier then our beloved earth and hence likely to have an unihabitable dense He athmosphere...
pity the 500 lightyears distance - not easy to have it checked out in a rush

[QUOTE=Hanna;262503]. Why is it so expensive now?
[QUOTE]

it is pure greed and capitalist market factors. shell-bp-gazprom etc; all the same = they milk the paying customer as much as they can for as long as they can

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

*Waiting to read about the next US political $$$$ success story in Ukraine...

Up until recently I was working with this American woman who had spent 6 year with a multinational, well known US firm in Kiev. It was UNBELIEVABLE how arrogant she was in her views of local business practices, local people and geopolitical matters.
She hadn't bothered to inform herself about anything to do with culture etc.

I quickly realised I could not mention my personal views to her, as she was a senior person to me. Why that particular company she worked for was even needed in Ukraine, I struggle to understand, it's related to a business practice that all civilised countries can do perfectly well for themselves. By allowing a US company to expand into Ukraine, and sending over Americans to serve in all key roles they sucked money OUT of the country and robbed local people of skills and expertise in a field which I am 100% certain Ukraine has plenty of qualified local staff.

You see the same thing across Eastern Europe. Western European and American companies move in, make a lot of profit which is then moved out of the country. Local staff paid extremely low salaries and critical management roles filled by non-locals. And their local companies are not as good at PR and can't compete under EU laws.
Was this why they threw out socialism, so they could be robbed by Western Europe and the USA and be second class EU citizens. It's very tragic and I think most clever people in countries like Romania and Bulgaria are beginning to wonder.

Originally Posted by bytemare

Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling apart." They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless of course, you don't believe that has taken place)

The funding is but a fraction of what it used to be. They just can't afford it, and there is no profit in it, so NASA's been reduced to crumbs of what it used to be. That's probably what he meant. The same thing happened in Russia, a decade earlier, so it's nothing unique.

One thing that really got me at the time the USSR fell apart, was that they had developed this really AMAZING space launching system called Energia. It had some vessels called "Buran". They were just about finished and had started testing it, if I recall (I was pretty interested in that kind of stuff when I was younger).

Then they just had to pull the plug. Nothing more was heard, ever about Buran.
TWENTY years of engineering work at the highest possible level down the drain.

Unbelievable. I don't know what happened to this vessel, probably a lump of rust on the steppes of Kazakhstan by now. It was only launched once in a test. It was totally superior to anything the US had, or anything that has been built or even devised since. Both Roscosmos and NASA are but a spec of what they were before. Energia could have been used to launch a manned flight to Mars, if the USSR had continued on. What a tragedy.

It's common for business to publish bio's about executives in their company, and in many places it's required by law to publish changes in the executive organization for a public organization. A similar search of Russian banks will produce bio's about their executives, including the American CEO that I mentioned.

I don't want to comment on this thread about the US Saudi relationship since it's not on topic, and I hadn't even commented on if it's right/wrong for Russia to change its pricing structure for Ukraine for gas. The fact is that Ukraine is in dire straights with respect to gas so it makes sense for their gas company to seek executives that can help them.

Obviously many people there (along with Georgia and Moldova) wanted a closer relationship with Europe, which didn't happen as was expected. The economy, as I mentioned above, was already crap even before this. People got mad, since they thought this was their last hope of getting some improvement in their crappy economy, failing banks, and little possibility for international travel. So yes, they are dealing with the consequences, they are trying to figure out how to heat people's crappy apartments.

[QUOTE=eisenherz;262506][QUOTE=Hanna;262503]. Why is it so expensive now?

it is pure greed and capitalist market factors. shell-bp-gazprom etc; all the same = they milk the paying customer as much as they can for as long as they can

Yeah I *may* actually have worked for two of these. I think you can guess which ones, in that case. Surprised, huh? Since they are so rich, they are not bad places to be as an employee. But it's borderline whether you can look yourself in the mirror in the morning.

Don't know exactly what Russia did to XX, but it was certainly *something* which management tried to brush over and whitepaint. Received lots of cryptical emails trying to pretend all was well. In reality I think Russia *took* some of the business and simply gave it go Rosneft, then kicked out all the executives or something like that. And they couldn't hit back or say anything for the risk of jeopardizing their remaining interests in Russia, or negatively affecting the stock price. LOL. Go Putin!
And today, Angola. I think you are in the vicinity, eisenherz, right? and have an idea what they are up to there, while the locals are killing each other. It just makes me want to cry.

Earlier at YYYYY, lots of cryptical emails from management about "everything we do in Nigeria is PERFECTLY above water, the locals love us, anything else is just lies". Whereupon I looked into it and was totally disgusted, changing jobs at the next opportunity.

It's creepy how such companies obsessively TALK about community values, ecology, ethics, anti-corruption and then go out and do the exact opposite.

Yeah you are probably right. In Scandinavia, at the time it was cheap, I got the gas from the local state owned company. So that would explain the cheapness. Nobody was trying to make a profit. I don't know where they got the gas from. Russia or somewhere else. I think you can actually make household gas from petrol as well, so that might have been what they did. There was something called "the gas factory".

In the UK, all the gas companies were privatised some years back, not sure when. It was supposed to bring increased efficiency and competition resulting in lower prices. The exact opposite happened, and the whole thing is much debated in media.
Low income families actually struggle to afford heating their own homes. I've seen stories in the news about single mothers dressing up their kids in coats indoors in the winter.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

reminds me of Kepler 62f; pity 62f and 186f are somewhat heavier then our beloved earth and hence likely to have an unihabitable dense He athmosphere...
pity the 500 lightyears distance - not easy to have it checked out in a rush

Not the same. Kepler 62f is 1 1/2 times larger in diameter than Earth. Kepler 186f is less than 10% larger. Since the STIS (Space Telescope Imaging Spectograph) on Hubble failed in 2004, there aren't many options for determining the composition of exoplanets yet - especially for a planet as small as 186f. They even had to work with the Keck and Gemini North telescopes on Mauna Kea to confirm the existence of 186f. That's always the case for exoplanets that small. But there's still hope because the failing Hubble Space Telescope will be replaced by the JWST (James Web Space Telescope) in 2018. Then they'll have a chance to learn more about the composition of 186f.
And yeah, it's 500 light years away but the point is just to learn more about how solar systems evolve.

Originally Posted by Hanna

One thing that really got me at the time the USSR fell apart, was that they had developed this really AMAZING space launching system called Energia. It had some vessels called "Buran". They were just about finished and had started testing it, if I recall (I was pretty interested in that kind of stuff when I was younger).

Then they just had to pull the plug. Nothing more was heard, ever about Buran.
TWENTY years of engineering work at the highest possible level down the drain.

Unbelievable. I don't know what happened to this vessel, probably a lump of rust on the steppes of Kazakhstan by now. It was only launched once in a test. It was totally superior to anything the US had, or anything that has been built or even devised since. Both Roscosmos and NASA are but a spec of what they were before. Energia could have been used to launch a manned flight to Mars, if the USSR had continued on. What a tragedy.

It was too much like the US Space Shuttle system and that was epic fail. But the Energia system didn't just vanish. The purpose of the Energia was to engineer a successful heavy-lift vehicle and it started the series of RD-170 rocket engines and the Zenit launcher - the Zenit boosters are still being made and used in the Zenit rockets. And a scaled version of the RD171 rocket (the RD-191) is being used in the new Angara rockets.
So the only part of the project that got shelved was the space shuttle but hey, the US shelved that too. Tbh, it was the Energia design that made the new Angara heavy-lift launch vehicle possible. It's a level up from Energia.
And don't forget, Putin is throwing tons of money at space projects now, including a manned trip to Mars. Also, the new Vostochny Cosmodrome is under construction in the Svobodny and Shimanovsk districts of Amur oblast.
Tbh, it's Russian technology and determination that kept the MIR space station alive and manned beyond it's predicted life expectancy. And it's also what's kept the International Space Station manned since 2002. That's one of the reasons why I say that NASA is falling apart. It has a lot of technology but it has serious issues with dedication and NASA changes it's plans and policies almost as often as I change the sheets on my bed. =/ Russia has a long long history of proving it's dedication to space - including 12 years of sending Expedition Crews to the ISS without fail. And that's too long to wait for the US to even decide on what kind of rocket they wanna build and what they want for a space policy.

Originally Posted by bytemare

It's common for business to publish bio's about executives in their company, and in many places it's required by law to publish changes in the executive organization for a public organization. A similar search of Russian banks will produce bio's about their executives, including the American CEO that I mentioned.

The American CEO's bank job didn't depend on the results of a bloody conflict with the CIA and US backing the deaths of so-called terrorists (Ukrainian citizens) so that Hunter Biden could safely go to Ukraine and get even more wealthy than he already is.
I can respect the American CEO in Russia but I'll never respect Hunter Biden. Imo, greed is never a good reason to oust a democratically elected President and cause that many deaths.
And don't forget, if this does turn into a civil war, instead of Napolean arriving to find Moscow in ruins, after the Battle of Borodino, it could be Hunter that arrives to find Kiev in ruins.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

And don't forget, if this does turn into a civil war, instead of Napolean arriving to find Moscow in ruins, after the Battle of Borodino, it could be Hunter that arrives to find Kiev in ruins.

that analogy is far-fetched and not at all fitting to the current situation

1812 Moscow was left largely deserted and partially destroyed by fire (in ruins as you say) on purpose by a strategically retreating imperial russian army.
If Kiev is in ruins, then it is due to civil unrest of a divided country and internal strife fuelled by interfering outside forces on both sides.
There is no Borodino equivalent here at all, no big battle for the final push and open road onto Moscow (Kiev), no final stand. He we rather have a region slowly descending into chaos.
And to elevate the significance and impact of a Mr Biden to that of Napoleon is beyond me.

[QUOTE=Hanna;262509][QUOTE=eisenherz;262506]

Originally Posted by Hanna

.

And today, Angola. I think you are in the vicinity, eisenherz, right?.

it is our neighbour to the north - let me not comment on Angola for it is a different topic, save to say that i largely share you views regarding the oil companies (you see, we agree on something)

Originally Posted by eisenherz

that analogy is far-fetched and not at all fitting to the current situation

1812 Moscow was left largely deserted and partially destroyed by fire (in ruins as you say) on purpose by a strategically retreating imperial russian army.
If Kiev is in ruins, then it is due to civil unrest of a divided country and internal strife fuelled by interfering outside forces on both sides.
There is no Borodino equivalent here at all, no big battle for the final push and open road onto Moscow (Kiev), no final stand. He we rather have a region slowly descending into chaos.
And to elevate the significance and impact of a Mr Biden to that of Napoleon is beyond me.

LOL. That analogy was beyond far-fetched. There's no grande armee, Barday, Kutuzov, Cossack light cavalry, or even a Count Rostopchin to order the fires. And comparing Biden to Napolean is like comparing a plastic butter knife to a fine saber. It's also not attrition unless it's attrition for all of Ukraine in a civil war. But if that happens then Biden may not have any prize to collect when he arrives in Kiev.
I really need to stop watching military re-enactments when I'm posting...

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

LOL. That analogy was beyond far-fetched. There's no grande armee, Barday, Kutuzov, Cossack light cavalry, or even a Count Rostopchin to order the fires. And comparing Biden to Napolean is like comparing a plastic butter knife to a fine saber. It's also not attrition unless it's attrition for all of Ukraine in a civil war. But if that happens then Biden may not have any prize to collect when he arrives in Kiev.
I really need to stop watching military re-enactments when I'm posting...

Это вообще был набор слов.

Quite amazing that CEO's from large American and west European companies change their positions to work in Russian companies -- this is ok. But one guy does this for Ukrainian company and he's greedy (although there's no mention of salary anywhere). Of course, everyone in Ukraine who wants something of a better life for themselves and children has been labelled a terrorist/nazi/killer. This hatred is completely for new for me.

[QUOTE=eisenherz;262538][QUOTE=Hanna;262509]

Originally Posted by eisenherz

it is our neighbour to the north - let me not comment on Angola for it is a different topic, save to say that i largely share you views regarding the oil companies (you see, we agree on something)

I'd love to hear about Namibia in some other context. Good to know we are on the same page. If those are your horses, I am green of envy....

And please all, note how uHoHxplode is up to date on the space programmes. This kid is something out of the ordinary for sure. This is not information you just stumble across. Maybe easier today than when I was a teen, but still - I didn't know half of that.

I am hoping for a manned mission to Mars by 2030 though, and I think most of us would have thought it would have already happened by now
I bet the Soviets would have loved to conquer the "Red" planet, lol! To bad they never got around to it.

Что-то вы тут, по-моему, далеко от темы уходите. Если хотите, я могу отделить космические посты.

[QUOTE=Hanna;262544][QUOTE=eisenherz;262538]

Originally Posted by Hanna

I'd love to hear about Namibia in some other context. Good to know we are on the same page. If those are your horses, I am green of envy....

And please all, note how uHoHxplode is up to date on the space programmes. This kid is something out of the ordinary for sure. This is not information you just stumble across. Maybe easier today than when I was a teen, but still - I didn't know half of that.

I am hoping for a manned mission to Mars by 2030 though, and I think most of us would have thought it would have already happened by now
I bet the Soviets would have loved to conquer the "Red" planet, lol! To bad they never got around to it.

Maybe they did get around to trying to do it. We just wouldn't know because they would have only reported it after it were all done and successful, and we wouldn't hear about all of the failed attempts and people who died trying, if history were to repeat itself.

Originally Posted by bytemare

Это вообще был набор слов.

Quite amazing that CEO's from large American and west European companies change their positions to work in Russian companies -- this is ok. But one guy does this for Ukrainian company and he's greedy (although there's no mention of salary anywhere). Of course, everyone in Ukraine who wants something of a better life for themselves and children has been labelled a terrorist/nazi/killer. This hatred is completely for new for me.

You heard me so maybe you really do get what I'm saying.
Hunter Biden isn't the devil, Kiev isn't Moscow, and this isn't 1812. The Ukraine crisis was created by journalists and it's monitored in the social networks. It's on the most popular gaming platforms and it's a Beta version of World of Warcraft... with massive mods.
In a perfect world, it's a simple economic decision to choose the correct International agreements to improve the Ukrainian economy.
In the real world, it's been distorted into a coup d'etat and a possible civil war. How productive is that? There's no logic.

If Hunter Biden gets a job in Ukraine, the US will be accused of using him as a bargaining chip. If Russia even whispers that it likes ethnic Russians, Russia will be accused of supporting insurgents and destabilizing the region.
The media is Captain Obvious and the journalists are drama llamas. People are being damaged and even killed in Ukraine but what's being done to address the real $$ issues?
Imo, if foreigners really cared about the people of Ukraine, there wouldn't have been a coup d'etat, the demonstrations in Kiev would have stayed peaceful, and Ukraine would have gotten the $16 billion bailout from Moscow and would be creating new economic ties with Europe. If the West really cared about the people of Ukraine, they would have let Russia bailout Ukraine and added their support too.
The "West vs Russia" game is responsible for all the damages in Ukraine.

Now I'll ask you. Why was an obviously ethnic-Russian-hostile interim government hand-picked for Kiev? Also, how did installing the hostile government help the Ukrainian people or the Ukrainian economy?
Two words - Epic Fail.

Back on-topic. I believe all the sanctions against Russia are temporary. But even if they get worse, Russia survived and thrived for 70 years in isolation so no, I don't believe the sanctions will be anything worse than an inconvenience... for Russia.
But it could be very damaging for Europe. Great Britain was heavily damaged by sanctions under Napolean's Continental System. It's why he was spying on Russia from Poland in a Polish military uniform. It's also what led to the Battle of Borodino. Napolean believed that Russia was violating the System's sanctions and supporting Great Britain.

Well, now the tables have turned and John Kerry believes that France is violating the sanctions with plans to sell 2 amphibious warships to Russia later this year. So maybe the US will sanction France for that?
The sanctions are just wrong in so many ways. Businesses want profits and that creates suspicion and distrust. And even if the sanctions could prevent Russia from meddling in an impoverished country, how will Europe survive? Those countries are already suffering from the global economic crisis and there's riots over austerity. If it keeps getting worse due to sanctions on Russia, the Ukraine crisis could end up being just one in a long list. For references, see Spain and Greece.

@ Hanna. Thanks but yeah, it is really easy to get information on almost any topic with Google... and aeronautics and space are my 2 favorite topics.

If these people can't even stand Russians, their own neighbouring country, how do they expect to be EU members? As an EU state they are supposed to embrace "multiculturalism" which includes anyone from analfabets from Africa, to moslem middle easterners, not to mention any sexual orientation under the sun.

And imagine the hypocrisy; if any other member state in Europe started erecting statues of known Nazis! There would furore in media! Likewise Nazi marches. In Ukraine (and occasionally the Baltics) it's not only allright, but it makes you some kind of heroic freedom fighter.

If I expressed views like that under my own name online, I'd never be employed again and might face prosecution. But in Ukraine, it's ok, according to the EU.

yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).

Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
[8:57:07] XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
[9:10:18] XXXX: И такой жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать

Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine? Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.

By the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding immigrants and "multiculturalism." Even western media reports such incidents and attitudes. This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere in the world. For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national origin and sexual orientation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

If these people can't even stand Russians, their own neighbouring country, how do they expect to be EU members?

They may expect whatever they want but EU membership of the western Ukraine is impossible in next 50 years. The whole EU economy will sink if that happens.

Sanctions end results so far:
- rouble goes up
- russian stock market goes up
- oil prices go up

They may expect whatever they want but EU membership of the western Ukraine is impossible in next 50 years. The whole EU economy will sink if that happens.

How specifically such a disaster might happen?

Originally Posted by bytemare

yeah, everywhere you look there are nazi marches and Jews being killed (sarcasm).

Rambling from a resident in Kiev:
[8:57:07] XXXX: да , Россие не выгодно чтобы здесь был порядок , они теперь постоянно будут провоцировать и создавать бардак . Европа зависит от их газа и побаивается Путина , Америка молодцы
[9:10:18] XXXX: И такой жестокости к украинцам и ненависти мы ни от кого не слышали , а как они радовались , что Крым стал Россией ( но это временно) , это не передать

Why not tune into Ukrainian media to see what's going on Ukraine? Most of the people you'll find agree with the above.

By the way, there are tensions in several European countries regarding immigrants and "multiculturalism." Even western media reports such incidents and attitudes. This unfortunately seems to happen everywhere in the world. For the record, Ukraine has no such laws against national origin and sexual orientation.

Yes, of course I know of the issues with immigration and racism in the EU.

As for the Ukrainian perspective - well I don't have to read Ukrainian perspectives for that. There are pro-Ukraine (i.e. current Kiev government, also pro USA agenda) article in every newspaper and TV channel around me. I can get it in every different language that I speak. So I am well aware what the narrative is.

However, after looking into it, and trying to form my own opinion amidst all the propganda, I have come to the conclusion that my opinion is:

• Western Ukrainians are being manipulated to support the US and EU agenda in relation to Russia and geopolitics in Eastern Ukraine.
• They lost a lot more than they gained by this coup d'etat, and it's becoming more evident every day.
• Some people are fooled by general naivité in respect to the EU and the USA, and their real objectives in Ukraine.
• Some are genuine Ukrainian nationalists, which I respect, even though it means they won't be able to share a state with other parts of the nation, who don't share their view on history, language and culture. Not everyone within their current borders wants to play Ukrainian nationalist, speak Ukrainian and partcipate in Russia-bashing. Particularly if they are in fact Russian, Jewish, Moldovan etc. If that's the country they want to be, they may need to shrink the country a bit and let others go their own way.
• It's ludicrous to imagine that the Ukraine can join the EU in the next 15 years, even if they started preparing tomorrow. It can't happen for more reasons than I care to list, and it's shameless of the EU to dangle this unrealistic goal, when it knows perfectly well what the reality is. In addition, the values that are supported by quite a few in Western Ukraine (ultra nationalism and nazi adoration) are not normally acceptable in the EU.
• Russia has not acted with complete integrity either! Russia could have done more to calm down the situation in Eastern Ukraine, if it wanted. It has, if anything, spurred the rebels on.
• It's unfair to allow the situation in Donbass to escalate, keep condemning and blackpainting the government in Kiev, then suddenly turn a cold shoulder and ignore pleas for annexation or support, coming from the Donbass.
• Moscow is playing some kind of game here too, for sure! The only mitigating circumstance is that Russia didn't start all this, the West did. Russia is responding to a situation, it did not instigate it.
• I also see that personal finances is behind a lot of what's going on in Eastern Ukraine. People's nationalities are not a clearcut question, and many are willing to go with whatever offers them the most money in their pocket at the end of the day - which is understandable.

I'm finding the whole situation disturbing and uppsetting.
I don't want to put my nose where it's not wanted. Now that I have formed my own view of it, I guess it's just a matter of waiting and seeing what happens with the election and the People's republics....

Originally Posted by diogen_

How specifically such a disaster might happen?

No it won't, but the Ukraine would have to "voluntarily" opt out of the CAP (joint acricultural policy), some regional funds and industrial subsidies. Essentially everything that would really help their economy!

The CAP is really only applied to Western Europe, hugely unfair, really - at the moment. It was a condition the Eastern European countries had to agree to, to join the EU, and they did, even if that meant they lost out on one of the biggest advantages there is, to EU membership.

If you look at a country like Romania, EU hasn't really helped them at all, and they've been quite blatantly discriminated against as a nation in the EU. It's quite upsetting. The same thing would happen with Ukraine. And mind you, this is AT LEAST 15 years in the future, even if everything goes exactly to plan.

I don't see what the attraction of the EU would be, from a Ukrainian perspective, if they are being realistic about it.