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Thread: Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-resultsd

  1. #1
    Hanna
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    Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-results

    Just a thread to discuss the sanctions on Russia following the Crimea/Ukraine events.


    • Will this affect regular people at all?
    • Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)
    • What long term effects will the sanctions have...
    • Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?


    My prediction is that the US and/or EU will also try to get RT off the air. It's getting more popular all the time, and it's driving Washington crazy.

    I think there is a good chance that they will "discover" some form of bureacratic issue to get RT off the air, in the same way as happened with PressTV in the EU and Russian speaking channels in the Baltics and Ukraine. Or all the reporters will find that they are denied visas etc.

  2. #2
    Почтенный гражданин DrBaldhead's Avatar
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    It all depends on what sanctions are actually going to be invoked.
    Will this affect regular people at all?
    Yes, it will. Yet, not everyone.
    IMHO the heaviest effect would come if VISA (or MasterCard) would actually stop operating in Russia. It won't make people lose their money, but it might be a drag to retrieve it for a while. The decision to create our own payment system (and this idea is far from new) is already made, so the harder Obama tries, the closer we are to taking measures on reclaiming Russian plastic card market.
    Most trade sanctions would not actually harm regular people - we're not so dependent on the western markets when it comes to everyday goods as we were 20 years ago. Moreover, Russian manufacturers will not have to compete with foreign companies. It will take much effort and much losses to cancel enough supplies to actually cause major changes. Most of the money lost by the western companies shall go to Asia and China might get even stronger.
    Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)
    It's kinda funny that those "sanctions" are declared not against Russia, but against Putin personally and his closest henchmen. And right now his "right hand men" are kinda proud that their efforts are recognized on such a level and ask for more.
    Actually such sanctions could have a good effect earlier, but since when the Magnitskiy law (which manifests exactly the same sanctions for more than a year already) was enacted, we regularly witnessed runaways of various officials/politicians (with big bags of money). To be short, those who could suffer from it are either already left and have no influence or not intended to be the actual target.
    What long term effects will the sanctions have...
    The markets shall suffer losses because it's not easy to isolate the 5th largest world economy. Even VISA has 100 millions customers here. Refusing to have all this money just because Obama says so is a tough decision.
    Russia will meet new problems but also get new options, especially for mobilizing the domestic markets.
    In the end we will witness the dawn of the real New World Order, finally shattering the Old World we had inherited since the WW II.
    Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?
    The political and economical chaos in Ukraine is much more dangerous problem for Russia than any sanctions. Actually the main success of the recent events is that Ukraine was stopped (surgically) from entering the Customs Union. If we manage to stop the ongoing civil conflicts and bring peace (taking at least part of Ukraine to our Customs Union would be the biggest luck) those sanctions shall mostly backfire rather than work.
    Hanna and Leo like this.

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Cool thread since it's something I've read a lot about.

    Will this affect regular people at all?

    I don't know but since a lot of Russian people want Putin to invade Ukraine then it must not be having a huge effect.

    Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)

    If it does then they don't seem to care. The Russian parliament wanted the West to sanction all of them and there's a popular saying in Russia right now: "Добавь себя в «чёрный список» США.". (Add yourself to the blacklist of the United States."
    They have an online petition for that and it's viral.

    What long term effects will the sanctions have...

    Imo, the long term effects will strengthen Russia and the eastern Trade Union. But it will also be devastating to the US and EU economies since the 5th largest economy will exist almost entirely in the east. And I don't see the TPP competing with that.
    President Putin has already signed an agreement with Belarus and Kazakhstan, signed an agreement with China to double Russia's gas and oil trade with them, and signed an agreement in North Korea to construct new pipelines. Russia probably has enough options to make the Western sanctions irrelevant to Russian prosperity.

    Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?

    Русские не сдаются. President Putin said at the meeting in Germany that the sanctions will have no effect on Russian policy. Russia's stands on the issues will never be changed by sanctions.

    Sanctions are like NGO's. They are used like weapons to attack other countries and force them to change to Western standards. Only weak nations cave in but Russia is not weak.
    Btw, I think it's illegal to interfere with satellite signals. So even if the West attacks RT, people will still be able to receive the signal with satellite dishes. We have 2 dishes and we get RT on TV, on our PC's, and on the radio.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Cool thread since it's something I've read a lot about.

    Will this affect regular people at all?

    I don't know but since a lot of Russian people want Putin to invade Ukraine then it must not be having a huge effect.

    Has it affected any politicians (assume that would only bite them if they have assets abroad...)

    If it does then they don't seem to care. The Russian parliament wanted the West to sanction all of them and there's a popular saying in Russia right now: "Добавь себя в «чёрный список» США.". (Add yourself to the blacklist of the United States."
    They have an online petition for that and it's viral.

    What long term effects will the sanctions have...

    Imo, the long term effects will strengthen Russia and the eastern Trade Union. But it will also be devastating to the US and EU economies since the 5th largest economy will exist almost entirely in the east. And I don't see the TPP competing with that.
    President Putin has already signed an agreement with Belarus and Kazakhstan, signed an agreement with China to double Russia's gas and oil trade with them, and signed an agreement in North Korea to construct new pipelines. Russia probably has enough options to make the Western sanctions irrelevant to Russian prosperity.

    Will this change Russias stand on issues relating to Ukraine?

    Русские не сдаются. President Putin said at the meeting in Germany that the sanctions will have no effect on Russian policy. Russia's stands on the issues will never be changed by sanctions.

    Sanctions are like NGO's. They are used like weapons to attack other countries and force them to change to Western standards. Only weak nations cave in but Russia is not weak.
    Btw, I think it's illegal to interfere with satellite signals. So even if the West attacks RT, people will still be able to receive the signal with satellite dishes. We have 2 dishes and we get RT on TV, on our PC's, and on the radio. The radio signal is channeled through a separate transmitter.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  5. #5
    Hanna
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    Should be interesting the day China imposes sanctions on the USA.
    For war crimes in the Middle East, or whatever.

    Or Russia on the EU (although that could be rather cold in the winter... so only after I am in a house with solar panels... )
    The same EU countries that are bashing Russia right now, import most of their gas and oil from Russia.

    Personally I think sanctions are ridiculous, but could be interesting to see it applied to the USA and after the US has destroyed economies around the world it seems that nothing apart from a taste of its own medicine would make the US change its ways. The US manufactures hardly no major industrial products, apart from weapons. 5 years without any computer parts from China, lol....

  6. #6
    Почётный участник eisenherz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    The US manufactures hardly no major industrial products, apart from weapons.....
    that is factually wrong; a few products that come to mind
    aircraft (eg Boeing)
    tractors and agricultural machinery (eg John Deere)
    gas turbines
    automotive and automotive suppliers (gm, ford, chrysler - even the europeans and japanese manufacture in the US (bmw, merc, vw, bosch, zf, siemens, toyota)
    medical equipment
    pharmaceuticals
    etc

    while manufacturing did in certain sectors decline over time, i do think the USA is still the single biggest manufacturer
    please always correct my (often poor) russian

  7. #7
    Почётный участник eisenherz's Avatar
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    in my opinion China is very unlikely to ever impose sanctions on any big trading partner as China's economy is particularly geared around exports (hence the artificially pegged weak Yuan / Renminbi) - plus they are a huge importer of natural resources (eg iron ore, coal) - they would hurt themselves the most.

    I believe that serious US/Euro sanctions on Russia actually have a more severe and longer term impact on Russia's economy than Russia would admit to. Please note that I am not commenting on the fairness of sanctions or lack thereof, merely on their effect. And I am not talking about restricting travel to Putin's inner circle, but level 3 or higher level of genuine economic sanctions. I believe this genuinely worries Russia's leaders, particlar with regards to longer term economic growth and development. If implemented, such sanctions would eventually affect ordinary people, though emotions of patriotism would for some time cloud the consequences. Such sanctions would hurt some European countries too; especially those that would have high level export opportunities with a growing Russian economy. In particular this is the case with Germany, whose export of high value and high tech machinery has been flourishing with Russian companies over the last years (automotive is one example). The issue of gas reliance from Russia gives Russia currently an advantangeous lever (the dependence on russian gas ranging from 30% in some countries to 100% in others within the EU). If Russia were to withhold supply, it would hurt Europe in the short term; but I am convinced that Europe as a unit would find alternate solutions to the energy supply and thus in the longer terrm Russia would be without one very valuable customer for their abundance of gas. As for the US, they have the least to lose with sanctions as their manufacturing industry is to a lesser degree reliant on exports (and in particular exports to Russia).

    In my mind Russia and some European countries would be the real loosers if severe sanctions were implemented.
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    please always correct my (often poor) russian

  8. #8
    Hanna
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    Yes, I agree with your main points. As for the "US produces only weapons" statement, that's been flying around for years now and there is some truth to it but obviously as you pointed out there is some level of local production. For a country that size and economy, the scale of the production deficit is really shocking though. And the American working class are the ones losing out. But that's a different discussion.

    I think perhaps your fears about long term serious sanctions being perceived as a genuine threat, are warranted.

    It would explain Putin's unexpected change of position this week, on Eastern Ukraine.


    • He essentially tells rebels to calm down and try to negotiate internally.
    • He tells them to postpone the referendum.
    • He made a clear comment that an intact Ukraine with federalism is the way to go. Earlier it was more open-ended what objectives Russia might have.


    All good stuff that he communicates at last, but if that was the view all along, why not say so a month earlier, before over 100 people were killed on both sides!

    It gave the impression that he changed his mind. Why would that be? Well, sanctions come to mind as a possible explanation. Or possibly genuine concern that too many people had died, but frankly the sanctions seem more likely.

    If it's not that, then he's playing a very shrewd game indeed.
    Or he was genuinely indecisive, or communicated poorly.

    The thing about the sanctions is that it's ludicrous and rude of Washington to sit and talk about sanctions when they have practically no trade with Russia anyway. China obviously would probably only laugh at it, or pay lip service in respect to "American" products that are made in China.

    The real victim of the sanctions would be European energy consumers, i.e most people in Europe, particularly North and East, and European companies that do business in Russia, i.e. almost all major companies.

    Do we need this, in the middle of the financial crisis, Euro crisis, Greece and everything else that's going on. And frankly, to whom in the EU does it even matter on a practical level, which country Crimea belongs to? As usual, the USA looks only to its own interests and Europe is supposed to dance to its tune for no good reason. Some politicians are so keen to score points with Washington that they'd go with anything, but others are realising that these sanctions would hurt EU just as much as they would hurt Russia.

    Ever since the end of the Cold War, "trade with Russia" and "expand into Russia" has been the capitalist motto of Europe. But now we are adding the clause "but only if they behave as Washington wants".

    I for one found Putin's turnaround very odd and am thinking, that either he genuinely fears sanctions, or he is playing a very elaborate game of poker with Russia's real intentions. If Russia isn't going to support separatists, the decent thing to do would have been to make that completely clear to them a long time ago, rather than let things drag on and even allow people to do. They obviously hang on every words Putin says, as was clear from their response to the request to postpone the referendum. Seems to me, something changed Putin's mind!

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    President Putin is trying to protect the Russian compatriots in Ukraine but don't forget, he also has to protect the Russians in Russia too. He had a 3 hour talk with the Swiss president of the OSCE and they were very agreeable towards Russia's position. I found that article in Komsomolskaya Pravda "Putin asked the southeast of Ukraine referendum move". Also there's a petition with 60,000 signatures in the European Parliament to classify the Right Sector as a terrorist organization. If it's approved by the EC then some of the Ukrainian parliament will be arrested and have their assets frozen. And that includes all the Right Sector activists in Ukraine. And Merkel wants to set up a "round table" conference with leaders from both West and East Ukraine to help resolve their differences.

    The EU is obviously concerned about how much serious sanctions would damage Europe. If President Putin can resolve the issues with diplomacy it will save a lot of lives.
    Btw, Donetsk and Luhansk voted to not postpone the referendum. That was also in Komsomolskaya Pravda "In Lugansk and Donetsk decided not to postpone a referendum on the status of the region".
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  10. #10
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    President Putin is trying to protect the Russian compatriots in Ukraine but don't forget, he also has to protect the Russians in Russia too. He had a 3 hour talk with the Swiss president of the OSCE and they were very agreeable towards Russia's position. I found that article in Komsomolskaya Pravda "Putin asked the southeast of Ukraine referendum move". Also there's a petition with 60,000 signatures in the European Parliament to classify the Right Sector as a terrorist organization. If it's approved by the EC then some of the Ukrainian parliament will be arrested and have their assets frozen. And that includes all the Right Sector activists in Ukraine. And Merkel wants to set up a "round table" conference with leaders from both West and East Ukraine to help resolve their differences.

    The EU is obviously concerned about how much serious sanctions would damage Europe. If President Putin can resolve the issues with diplomacy it will save a lot of lives.
    Btw, Donetsk and Luhansk voted to not postpone the referendum. That was also in Komsomolskaya Pravda "In Lugansk and Donetsk decided not to postpone a referendum on the status of the region".

    You are really well informed on this! Hats off!
    You're at uni, right? What's your major? I reckon you'd be perfect for Political Science.

    I didn't even know about the 60,000 signatures list in the EU.
    That's nothing though. The EU has, gosh can't remember, but something like 500,000,000 inhabitants. Should be no problem at all getting 1 mil signatures, just by showing people the pics of the Right Sector guys. (of course, they are not shown in mainstream EU media, but a lot of people are on to the fact that the covering is biaised.

    Good to hear that Switzerland took a more pragmatic view. Switzerland is the most democratic country in Europe actually, but that's a different story. And its pragmatic.

    Also interesting that some of the "pro-Russians" chose to ignore Putin's advice.

    I'm not quite so much dyed-in-the-wool pro-Russia/Putin as you are but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate your posts, and the same goes for people like Basil77 and others. Everything that it-Ogo said made me think.

    I just get an impression that the whole Donbass area simply doesn't HAVE a very clear national identity at all - it was "soviet" and now in the absence of that, it's both Russian and Ukrainian, or perhaps neither! Also, there is a class and age related divide with as to who identifies more with Russia vs Ukraine. So an older working class woman might feel quite different than a younger well educated male living next door to her.

    From a Political Science perspective (I actually have a degree in that) it's wildly fascinating, but it's also incredibly upsetting.

    My view is whatever will make the area more prosperous and allow the people there freedom and stability will be the best bet. I don't think that as an outsider I really should offer a strong view. But if I was to take a view I'd say that federalism ought to be win-win for all sides. I don't particularly condemn Russia though - Russia is just reacting to the coup d'etat and trying to look out for its interests on its borders, and for Russian speakers which I think is completely reasonable.

    edit;

    I read the Beeb's story on this and they seem as surprised as I was, about Putin's comments. They said it's either

    1) RU genuinely fears sanctions
    2) Putin is shocked at how events are developing and tries to prevent further escalation
    3) It's a ploy with some ulterior motive
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  11. #11
    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    You are really well informed on this! Hats off!
    You're at uni, right? What's your major? I reckon you'd be perfect for Political Science.

    I didn't even know about the 60,000 signatures list in the EU.
    That's nothing though. The EU has, gosh can't remember, but something like 500,000 inhabitants. Should be no problem at all getting 1 mil signatures, just by showing people the pics of the Right Sector guys. (of course, they are not shown in mainstream EU media, but a lot of people are on to the fact that the covering is biaised.

    Good to hear that Switzerland took a more pragmatic view. Switzerland is the most democratic country in Europe actually, but that's a different story. And its pragmatic.

    Also interesting that some of the "pro-Russians" chose to ignore Putin's advice.

    I'm not quite so much dyed-in-the-wool pro-Russia/Putin as you are but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate your posts, and the same goes for people like Basil77 and others. Everything that it-Ogo said made me think.

    I just get an impression that the whole Donbass area simply doesn't HAVE a very clear national identity at all - it was "soviet" and now in the absence of that, it's both Russian and Ukrainian, or perhaps neither! And its obvious that there is a class and age related divide with as to who identifies more with Russia vs Ukraine.

    From a Political Science perspective (I actually have a degree in that) it's wildly fascinating, but it's also incredibly upsetting.

    My view is whatever will make the area more prosperous and allow the people there freedom and stability will be the best bet. I don't think that as an outsider I really should offer a strong view. But if I was to take a view I'd say that federalism ought to be win-win for all sides. I don't particularly condemn Russia though - Russia is just reacting to the coup d'etat and trying to look out for its interests on its borders, and for Russian speakers which I think is completely reasonable.
    Thanks! I just knew there had to be a reason for Putin to wanna postpone the referendum so I looked for any recent articles. But no, I won't be ready for uni for 2 more years and then I may wanna major in Physics. Haven't really decided yet.
    Btw, I know members here have very different views but I respect that and I always learn something from everything I read. And I totally do agree that federalism is the best solution. Anyway, at least the "round table" discussions can give Ukraine a chance to have a government that's fair to all the Ukrainian people. I really hope that works.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  12. #12
    Почтенный гражданин diogen_'s Avatar
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    Obama has a "cumulative" grudge on Putin for not only Ukraine but also for Snowden, Syria, Iran, and other issuers, and he actually coverts to impose even those sanctions that can backfire and harm not only Russia but his big corporations. On the other hand, EU states are too effete and hedonistic to be ready to sacrifice their comfort and profits for the sake of Ukraine, but they still need to react somehow on "border shifts" to save their faces in order to finally found themselves on the right side of history. Hence, Putin has to meander to reach the dream of his life, and his moves are very, very cautious and full of disguise. It's A Long Way to Tipperary Novorussia but slow and steady he wins the race...))
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  13. #13
    Hanna
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    Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not.
    But it looks like Russia is planning the following:


    • "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will initially be turned off on 1 June, then “be permanently terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. "
    • "Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit."
    • Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space Station (ISS).


    Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.

    Quote Originally Posted by RT
    Rogozin stressed that Russia will apply restrictive measures of its own only as a response to sanctions imposed by the West.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not.
    But it looks like Russia is planning the following:


    • "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will initially be turned off on 1 June, then “be permanently terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. "
    • "Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit."
    • Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space Station (ISS).


    Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.
    Such steps take very little dignity, and if the Russian authorities are serious about that, it will only make everyone treat the country even worse than it is treated now. As for the GPS thing, it's as insane as their political games resulted in the U.S. adoption ban. "If you continue to piss us off, we'll mistreat even more our fellow citizens" (c)

  15. #15
    Увлечённый спикер bytemare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    Such steps take very little dignity, and if the Russian authorities are serious about that, it will only make everyone treat the country even worse than it is treated now. As for the GPS thing, it's as insane as their political games resulted in the U.S. adoption ban. "If you continue to piss us off, we'll mistreat even more our fellow citizens" (c)
    And they will be happy to be mistreated It will be the west's fault. for some people, the idealogy is more important that how they live or how much stuff they have or can buy, so they will deal with the sanctions. Sanctions are hurting. The value of the ruble has fallen, and sanctioning a bank causes panic. Sure, for many people, it's just an invonvienence that it just got a little harder to buy an app from the app store, but the sanctions are bad for business and investment.

    By the way, the economic situation in Ukraine was crap even before this all happened. About two years ago, their credit rating was reduced due to risk, heck even their national airline went out of business due to debts (prinicple debtor was SVO airport of course). A shame, I actually enjoyed flying them.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by bytemare View Post
    And they will be happy to be mistreated It will be the west's fault. for some people, the idealogy is more important that how they live or how much stuff they have or can buy, so they will deal with the sanctions. Sanctions are hurting. The value of the ruble has fallen, and sanctioning a bank causes panic. Sure, for many people, it's just an invonvienence that it just got a little harder to buy an app from the app store, but the sanctions are bad for business and investment.

    By the way, the economic situation in Ukraine was crap even before this all happened. About two years ago, their credit rating was reduced due to risk, heck even their national airline went out of business due to debts (prinicple debtor was SVO airport of course). A shame, I actually enjoyed flying them.
    One would argue if such an economic situation in Ukraine had arisen out of nothing, or it had resulted from the incompetent rule of the "regional party", the leader of which was kicked out of the office not long ago. Anyway, the most important thing for them now is to deal with all the "country traders" and to keep integrity, as THAT is the biggest threat now. After they're done with that, and after they have a legally formed government after the election, they can start solving the economic issues.

  17. #17
    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna View Post
    Now, Russia is hitting back. I have no idea whether this is something that will hurt the USA or not.
    But it looks like Russia is planning the following:

    • "The 11 American GPS stations in Russia will initially be turned off on 1 June, then “be permanently terminated” from September 1, if the US continues with its aggression. "
    • "Moscow is banning Washington from using Russian-made rocket engines, which the US has used to deliver its military satellites into orbit."
    • Moscow also isn’t planning to agree to the US offer of prolonging operation of the International Space Station (ISS).


    Surprised that they don't also throw out any US astronauts currently in Russia, no doubt there must be some there training or something. I know none of this is their fault, but it would certainly get the message across.
    Those sanctions are a brilliant move. With NASA falling apart, it will give Russia an impressive edge on the space industry.

    In other news, is everyone aware that the US Vice President's son has been appointed to the board of directors of one of Ukraine's largest gas conglomerates, Burisma Holdings. While Ukrainians are dying, Hunter Biden has a huge smile on his face ($$$$$$$).
    Hunter Biden, Joe's Son, Joins Ukraine Gas Company - Business Insider

    Washington DC is busy right now trying to explain how this has nothing to do with the Ukrainian Crisis or the US government... yeah right...
    *Waiting to read about the next US political $$$$ success story in Ukraine...
    Hanna likes this.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  18. #18
    Увлечённый спикер bytemare's Avatar
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    Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling apart." They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless of course, you don't believe that has taken place)

    Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off. Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water. So I don't know why it would be such a huge surprise to hire a Yale trained lawyer who is an expert on international law. Heck the CEO of one of the largest banks in Russia is an American.

  19. #19
    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bytemare View Post
    Certainly not much evidence that NASA is "falling apart." They've done quite a job with the Mars Curiosity thing (unless of course, you don't believe that has taken place)
    I've been all over the Curiosity rover since the launch and I'm always watching for new discoveries. I was also watching the Messenger mission when it discovered ice under organic compounds in craters on Mercury.
    I'm also waiting for the New Horizons mission to do the Pluto flyby and I've been all over the Cassini-Solstice, Kepler Space Telescope, and International Space Station discoveries too. Btw, Kepler 186f is Earth-sized and in the habitable zone.
    This summer the new Angara heavy-lift rocket will be test launched at the Plesetsk Cosmodrome and Voyager 1 has reached the Depletion zone of the Heliosphere. It's 127.8 AU from the sun right now.

    Back to NASA. They're still using Atlas V rockets since the space shuttle program failed. Next they wanted to build the Ares 1 and Ares V rockets, under the Constellation Program, for near-earth and deep space missions. That got dropped so now they wanna build a new SLS heavy lift vehicle to support the Orion Crew Exploration Vehicle (rewind to Ares 1).
    But mostly they just wanna let commercial companies build the rockets now and they totally did change up their format.
    That's what I call falling apart.
    NASA - NASA Plays Key Exploration Role In New Administration Space Policy


    Quote Originally Posted by bytemare View Post
    Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off. Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water. So I don't know why it would be such a huge surprise to hire a Yale trained lawyer who is an expert on international law. Heck the CEO of one of the largest banks in Russia is an American.
    When somebody has to publish a whole article to try and prove they didn't do anything wrong... something did something wrong.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  20. #20
    Hanna
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by bytemare View Post
    Ukraine could have no gas as their main supply is about to be cut off. Gas is what most of the population uses for heating, cooking, and hot water.
    The expression "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" comes to mind.

    Take one guess why the the USA is so cosy with Saudi Arabia, a country that stands for everything the US normally can't tolerate; i.e. dictatorship, oppression of women, lack of "freedom", homophobia, non-Christian values --- just as a starting point. They need the oil imports, at prices they can afford. So in light of that they brush their normal reservations under the carpet. And Russia is considerably less unpleasant than Saudi from pretty much any objective Western observer's perspective. They even share common culture and language with Ukraine. It really should not be very hard for Ukraine to ensure that it doesn't majorly upset Russia. But instead, Ukraine's done just about everything it can, to annoy Russia, going completely against their own best interests. Who are they going to buy cheap gas from then. Brussels, lol?

    For the exact same reason that the USA cozies up with Saudi, the Ukraine would be wise to make sure it has a working relationship with Ukraine. Through the foreign backed coup d'etat and subsequent events, they have jeopordized this, and now it looks like they'll be paying the price.

    Plus - it's not like Russia is refusing to provide gas.
    Unless I am mistaken, Russia asks nothing else than that Ukraine pays the same price for gas as the rest of the EU, and that (due to not having paid discounted fees on time) now pays for usage in advance. Completely acceptable practice within business. It's anyone's prerogative to decide who they want to give discounts to, or ask payment in advance from untrusted partners. Basically in this respect "they made their bed and now they have to lay in it" to use another common expression.

    The US is seriously talking about building an underwater gas pipeline to Europe.

    I personally wish the natural gas sources in Europe were a bit more evenly distributed, but at the end of the day, that's where it's at. Russia may have gas, but it has some other challenges and problems that the rest of Europe doesn't have.

    By the way, does anyone know why gas is so expensive nowadays?
    I don't know where my gas comes from, but I pay a small fortune for it. It's totally ridiculous. When I was at university the gas bill was nothing. It might as well have been free. Literally, a month's supply cost about the same as a dinner out. Why is it so expensive now? What's changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    Those sanctions are a brilliant move. With NASA falling apart, it will give Russia an impressive edge on the space industry.

    In other news, is everyone aware that the US Vice President's son has been appointed to the board of directors of one of Ukraine's largest gas conglomerates, Burisma Holdings. While Ukrainians are dying, Hunter Biden has a huge smile on his face ($$$$$$$).
    Hunter Biden, Joe's Son, Joins Ukraine Gas Company - Business Insider
    What irony. And how ridiculous. What on earth qualifies some American punk who doesn't even speak the local language, be on the board of this company?

    What's it going to take for Ukrainians to see that the US is no better than Russia, probably worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Biden
    As a new member of the Board, I believe that my assistance in consulting the Company on matters of transparency, corporate governance and responsibility, international expansion and other priorities will contribute to the economy and benefit the people of Ukraine," Hunter Biden said in the statement.
    Translation: I have no relevant skills whatsoever, but I am good at bullshïtting. You should be honoured to pay me 1mil USD per year for my services.

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