Thread: Sanctions on Russia: Facts and end-resultsd

Originally Posted by Hanna

Have you got ANY proof or supporting facts whatsoever, or did you cook up the most insulting and sinister conspiracy theory on this site so far?

Source to even remotely back any of this, please!

To come to a Russia site, and make comments in favour of Caucasian terrorists is like turning up at an American site and starting to express sympathy for the 9-11 bombers. Rude, insensitive and deliberately provocative.

To compare the situation in Ukraine, with muslim terrorism backed from Saudi Arabia is either ignorant, or a very desperate gripping of straws.

If those are your views, then this is not really the place to air them.

Has your reading ability been affected in some bad way, or whatever else has happened to you? I've already clearly stated I have no sympathy for those Chechen rebels, and I also had said what you just repeated, that comparing the situation in Ukraine to the one in Chechnya is not very smart. So, you now blame me for making that comparison, even though I said it should not be made in the first place? That's just incredible.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area. No position or personal attitude have been expressed by what I've said, really. But what I meant is that they were really different compared to the "Donetsk republicans", and whether they were good or evil, they had some ideas, beliefs and combat skills that are helpful in such fights, and that those "Donetsk republicans" don't have. And I mentioned them for the only reason of someone else having mentioned them while addressing me.

I cannot help you with the quotas, maybe the mods can?...

Do you consider seventy virgins as an "idea and belief" and independence as something else?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Have you got ANY proof or supporting facts whatsoever, or did you cook up the most insulting and sinister conspiracy theory on this site so far?

Source to even remotely back any of this, please!

To come to a Russia site, and make comments in favour of Caucasian terrorists is like turning up at an American site and starting to express sympathy for the 9-11 bombers. Rude, insensitive and deliberately provocative.

To compare the situation in Ukraine, with muslim terrorism backed from Saudi Arabia is either ignorant, or a very desperate gripping of straws.

If those are your views, then this is not really the place to air them.

I thought this site was about Russian language, not a pro-Russia site. Of course, if we're here then obviously we have some interest in all things dealing with Russia, but there are plenty of Russian speakers in the world who my not agree with policies of the Russian Federation. FYI I'm not commenting on the previously mentioned conflict.

Hanna, I really don't understand what you're trying to do here. On one hand you've asked , "are you there (in Ukraine)?" "Do you have inside information from there?" And also that why should you read the Ukraine media, when it's exactly the same as western media that's all around you. I may be wrong on this, but from appearances it just seems you enjoy the opportunity to criticize "the west" and especially USA, and I don't see that you're actually interested in what's happening with respect to this conflict. Somehow this translates as anti-west = pro Russia?

Forgive me if I've misread your posts.

@bytemare
I have no issue with honestly expressed questions, or with people having a well founded view that is different than my own.

(Deleted. L.)

Critisizing Russia for reasons grounded in reality is perfectly reasonable and I certainly don't mind it. I would do it myself, and have done. It's certainly not an ideal country.

(Deleted. L.)

By "Chechen fighters" I mean those Chechen residents who took part in the fights in that area.

AFAIK, Chechen fighters are as omnipresent as American mercenaries in the Ukraine.)) Everyone knows about their existence but is still unable to capture these elusive creatures and demonstrate their true faces to the whole world thus far. So, it’s safer to consider all them byproducts of information wars for now.

I doubt the civilian people there support any of the sides of the conflict. What it really is is some masked a**holes who want to play a war vs. regular Ukrainian army. It's not a surprise that the latter should demonstrate a bigger ability to smash the enemy than the former one, which is eventually going to happen.

You draw these conclusions from popular American press, don't you? I read NYT from time to time and find its coverage entertaining. But the editor-in-chief was fired the other day, as Putin would say, God knows why?

В американских СМИ активно муссируется и другое предположение: увольнение Абрамсон может быть связано с появлением в газете 3 мая репортажа из Славянска. В нем журналисты, которые провели несколько дней с пророссийскими сепаратистами, рассказали, что среди них нет граждан России, а сами они в большей степени представляют местных жителей, часть из которых — бывшие военные украинской и советской армии.

Главный редактор The New York Times Джилл Абрамсон уволена со своего поста - Газета.Ru | Политика

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Do you consider seventy virgins as an "idea and belief" and independence as something else?

I'm not sure what to say on the "seventy virgins" thing you brought up, but as for the independence, they had it as their foremost idea back in the 1990s too, didn't they? I feel like I cannot say anything further on this, or I'll probably be accused of having links to several terrorist groups or something... But you've got the idea.

By the way, I can say I can perfectly understand Russia about their fight to keep integrity of their country in the 1990s. That was probably what a country should do in situations like that. So, I'm now wondering how they have been able to forget all THEY were doing, and take the position they took.

I said:

President Putin...His 2 concerns are the welfare of the compatriots and a workable relationship with Ukraine....

Originally Posted by eisenherz

haha ja sure... there is no self-interest of Russia in this at all..

You missed one of the variables. X="compatriot welfare". Y="workable relationship". Z="profits".
I realize my statement wasn't Extremely User-Friendly but most people would assume Z to be the most likely outcome for Y.
Y and Z are vital to support X without W (warfare). Imo, anyone who doesn't understand that equation should seriously consider enrolling in a military academy - or at least take a course in military history.
The same equation was used during the colonization of America. In that case, the compatriots were fellow pilgrims and the workable relationship was with the Native Americans. W was frequently substituted for Y in the equation but the results were the same - the strategic military creation of the wealthiest nation on Earth - emphasis on "wealthiest".
In a perfect world, the Native Americans would have been allowed to resolve their own International issues involving the new settlers.
In the real world, they live on reservations. And like I've said before, I'm not an idealist.
/Lecture.

There are variables in the Western equation that force me to side with Russia over the West (W=gay propaganda, X=racial chaos, Y=Anti-Christian ideals, Z=Harmful environment to raise kids in). When I have kids, they won't have to grow up with W, X, or Y. Imo, one of the most brilliant military strategies in history was depriving the victor of his spoils (ie. Napolean finding Moscow in ruins). So no, I've never believed that fortunes weren't a very important variable in military/political equations.
If President Putin wins this conflict, it will save a lot of Russian compatriots and create new options for enriching the economy in the long term. If he succeeds in bringing back Novorossiya, he could be one of the greatest Russian patriots in history. So yeah, self-interest is a strong motivation in any campaign.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

@ iCake
hmm, it was not exactly me who claimed that Russia is not doing it for their own profit
quite the opposite actually.
i am with you on this one; I am not blaming Russia for pursuing their own interests (and largely support them); i am just against pretending it is 'for the wellbeing of compatriots'

Don't forget, more safe and healthy workers = more profits. So if you believe compatriots aren't valuable, try building a nation without them. I read that the USSR respected the workers and created one of the most powerful nations on Earth...

Originally Posted by bytemare

I thought this site was about Russian language....

I learned how to speak English before I ever took a course in English grammar. How? By sitting in a classroom? No. I learned English by talking to other people and mimicking what they said.
Btw, I've learned more of the Russian language by posting in these threads than I've learned by studying the language. The active debate gives me a strong incentive to learn.

Originally Posted by bytemare

....translates as anti-west = pro Russia?....

I didn't notice. I've seen her give positive and negative opinions for both sides of the issues. I think it's more likely that she just has strong objections to a lot of Western policies but hey, a lot of people do. It doesn't mean they hate their side and love the other side.
Sometimes it's only a matter of logic and/or preference.
Btw, I've met some anti-*insert country* people online and my conclusion is this: Anybody that's really anti-*insert country* will probably be anti-*insert country* no matter what country they live in. I think it goes way beyond preference for them.

Originally Posted by diogen_

AFAIK, Chechen fighters are as omnipresent as American mercenaries in the Ukraine.)) Everyone knows about their existence but is still unable to capture these elusive creatures and demonstrate their true faces to the whole world thus far. So, it’s safer to consider all them byproducts of information wars for now.
You draw these conclusions from popular American press, don't you? I read NYT from time to time and find its coverage entertaining. But the editor-in-chief was fired the other day, as Putin would say, God knows why?
Главный редактор The New York Times Джилл Абрамсон уволена со своего поста - Газета.Ru | Политика

I bookmarked that article. It was titled "Behind the masks in Ukraine":
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/wo...etType=nyt_now
Jill Abramson made a fatal mistake. She allowed facts to be published that didn't support the Western political narrative. I wasn't surprised that they fired her and she's probably at the top of the NSA watch list now.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

....By the way, I can say I can perfectly understand Russia about their fight to keep integrity of their country in the 1990s. That was probably what a country should do in situations like that. So, I'm now wondering how they have been able to forget all THEY were doing, and take the position they took.

I read about the 1990's in Russia. What a nightmare! But Putin paid off the foreign debts and saved the country. It's one of the reasons I have so much respect for President Putin. Very few (if any) modern leaders have done as much to rebuild a nation as he has.
Btw, I believe it was because of the 1990/s that the Russians took the position they took. The best lessons are from experience. People here can't even get a decent job without it.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

they had it as their foremost idea back in the 1990s too, didn't they? I feel like I cannot say anything further on this, or I'll probably be accused of having links to several terrorist groups or something... But you've got the idea.

They had had got de facto independence in 1996. What had happened next?

Result of sanctions (from ICQ):

(14:57) :
I have bought a replacement cartridge for water filter Brita, Germany. But wine from California still absent in the store

(14:59) :
stupid sanctions

Brita water filters huh? Russia is truly going middle class.

Plenty of other countries make lovely wine. And all electronics are made in China.
It's probably both character building and good for the wallet to be under US sanctions. As long as Europe and China don't join in, it will hardly even be noticable.

The US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers are NOT happy. They want the sanctions against Russia to stop and they plan to take out full-page newspaper ads to oppose any new sanctions against Russia.
Business groups oppose any new sanctions on Russia

If the Obama administration defies the wealthy American corporations, there could be some serious **** about to come down on the White House. It's those corporations that are keeping the US economy alive.

Some ex USSR states signed a deal with the EU today. Mission accomplished.
They look they are about to start singing "The more we are together".

Interestingly even the BBC admits that the EU was pressured by the US to not agree to a Ukrainian deal while the Ukraine still had a favoured status with Russia.

The US forced Ukraine to choose, whereupon Yanukovich had to choose the best option, which was Russia's. Well that was not the "right" choice, so trigger plan B, simply get rid of the government that made the "wrong" choice, and make sure a new one is installed that will choose "right". Now accomplished but to a higher price than the Machievellian plotters in the CIA anticipated.

Meanwhile these ex USSR countries are fooling themselves. The EU will not accept any new members for a long time, and these would be at the back of the queue anyway. Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova don't qualify for EU membership due to having unresolved border issues, and that is just the beginning. They will be third class associates, at best. This is a farce.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The US Chamber of Commerce and the National Association of Manufacturers are NOT happy. They want the sanctions against Russia to stop and they plan to take out full-page newspaper ads to oppose any new sanctions against Russia.
Business groups oppose any new sanctions on Russia

If the Obama administration defies the wealthy American corporations, there could be some serious **** about to come down on the White House. It's those corporations that are keeping the US economy alive.

Interesting. For me it's gone so far that I have no issue with the USA carrying on with these sanctions. They hurt the USA a fair bit - China, India, Russia and others don't stick with sanctions. But in countries that are subject to the sanctions, to some degree it actually forces them to be inventive and prevent their countries from being "Americanised". Neither is necessarily a bad thing. The only tragic thing about it is when these countries can't get hold of patented medicine by US corporation; apparently leading to deaths.

And if general "human rights" and war-related matters were geniune causes for sanctions, then the US should sanction Saudi Arabia and China LONG before Russia. But wait, not possible. All this sanctions nonsense is totally hypocritical. Hopefully the US will be the country that loses out from it in the end.

During the cold war, a family member of mine made a lot of money from circumventing (legally) silly blockades of perfectly legitimate goods in a certain field, by NATO associated countries towards Comecon countries. All that the ban led to, was a middle man (my family member's company) making a profit. Blockades and sanctions are pointless, but why not let the US lose market shares and friends by doing it.

Originally Posted by Hanna

They look they are about to start singing "The more we are together".

Mission accomplished.

not yet


Меркель: СА Украины с ЕС вступит в силу после трехсторонних переговоров с РФ
По словам канцлера, задержка с вступлением в силу экономической части соглашения связана с необходимостью "найти решения, при которых опасения РФ будут сняты".