Thread: "Russophobia" and "Russophilia" :)

I should definitely add SergeMak to the list of people who know what they are talking about, when it comes to the USSR. It was very interesting to read about your experiences. That's tons more relevant and credible than what anyone who did not experience this era first-hand has to say.

When it's described in that way, then it's very tragic that most of what the Soviet Union tried to achieve, came to nothing. I don't agree with everything about the USSR, and I am not doubting that a lot of people were very fed up with it towards the end. But I nevertheless think most of the ideals were very noble.

Most tragic is old people in the ex USSR today, I guess.

Imagine if they spent most of their working life doing something that was partly ideologically motivated, trying to build up the country and/or communism because of genuine commitment. They experienced hardships during the war, and primitive conditions in their early working life.

Then just as they reach retirement, everything they worked for their entire life just comes crumbling down and is sold in the most vulgar capitalist sell-out in world history!

Then the person finds that he/she has to live on a pittance of a pension that reduces them to tragic poverty for the rest of their lives. While oligarchs are cruising their world and spending the fruits of Soviet labour and thievery on extravagant and unnecessary luxury.

And just to add insult to injury the person might be in Ukraine, the Baltics or somewhere, where, in addition to everything else, he/she is subject to condemnation or discrimination because of language reasons. Perhaps also considered a scape-goat for long-ago events that they are not responsible for.

It's really tragic to think about.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Then the person finds that he/she has to live on a pittance of a pension that reduces them to tragic poverty for the rest of their lives.

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Ух ты! Она, наверное, ветеран Великой Отечественной войны. Дай Бог ей здоровья!
А так средняя пенсия по старости сейчас в три раза меньше: С 1 апреля средняя пенсия в

Originally Posted by Lampada

А так средняя пенсия по старости сейчас в три раза меньше: С 1 апреля средняя пенсия в

Да 12 тысяч сейчас пенсия. Это начисление. Обычно плюс к этому идёт местная надбавка. плюс льготы. В среднем на руки получается 16 - 18 т.р.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Good to hear that she can manage well on that.

So does this mean Putin is beginning to fix the problems for old people in Russia, or is she just fortunate with a higher pension than average?

In one of the Ukraine threads, somebody was suggesting that pensions in Russia can sometimes be as low as 250 USD per month. I.e. they said that while the situation for old people is bad in Ukraine, it's not much better in Russia.

As far as I am concerned poverty and hardship among the old is a tremendous tragedy.

According to Ukrainian news agency UNIAN Средняя пенсия в Украине за 3 месяца выросла на 1 доллар : Новости УНИАН the average pension in Ukraine is 1428 hrivnyas which equals to 125 USD or 92 euros or 4359 rubles. As you can see, minimal pension in Russia is 3 times higher than average pension in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

According to Ukrainian news agency UNIAN Средняя пенсия в Украине за 3 месяца выросла на 1 доллар : Новости УНИАН the average pension in Ukraine is 1428 hrivnyas which equals to 125 USD or 92 euros or 4359 rubles. As you can see, minimal pension in Russia is 3 times higher than average pension in Ukraine.

Хорошо б, если на Крым это распространилось. У моей подруги родители в Симферополе. Они очень радовались, что их пенсия резко изменится. А она поднялась пока на 20%. Они, правда, ожидают, что позже ещё будут добавки. Цены же на продукты и товары уже подскочили почти в два раза.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Хорошо б, если на Крым это распространилось. У моей подруги родители в Симферополе. Они очень радовались, что их пенсия резко изменится. А она поднялась пока на 20%. Они, правда, ожидают, что позже ещё будут добавки. Цены же на продукты и товары уже подскочили почти в два раза.

Почему цены так много увеличилась?

Я была в Украине; еда не очинь много дешевле, чем в Европе...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Почему цены так много увеличилась?

Я была в Украине; еда не очинь много дешевле, чем в Европе...

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I don't know what the current "toilet-paper standards" are in major Russian cities.
I do recall very well from the early 1990s, however, that:
(1) Public restrooms quite often had no toilet paper at all;
(2) When public restrooms did have paper for wiping your butt, it was often squares cut from old newspapers.
(3) While it was easy to find "real" toilet paper on rolls at Russian stores, it's only a slight exaggeration to say that you could use the stuff as a substitute for sandpaper.
(4) Soft, comfortable, absorbent toilet paper could also be found in some Russian stores, but the label was always in English or some other Western European language. (I can remember some Russian friends marveling over the extreme comfort of "pre-moistened towelettes" imported from Italy, because they were SO MUCH NICER than the toilet paper actually manufactured in Russia.)
Sure, it's possible that things have greatly improved since then -- but if so, then it's a rather recent improvement, and the notion that "it's difficult to find good TP in Russia" is hardly what I would call a развесистая клюква (in the sense of a "baseless stereotype".)

They spent over $50 billion on the Sochi venue and some idiots thought they forgot the TP? LMAO! For that much money the TP coulda been lined with gold! LMAO!
But yeah, I can understand why there wasn't much TP in Russia in the 1990's. I read that Western influence in Russia almost totally destroyed the country.
But Russia survived the 1990's and fought back to become the 2nd most powerful nation on Earth. That commands respect and Russia and the Russian people have mine. Russia IS unconquerable.

Russian TP could be a substitute for sandpaper? That's what I call multi-functional. I mean, how soft does it need to be for a quick wipe, lmao?

Originally Posted by SergeMak

My father is native Ukrainian from South Russian Belgorod region. He was born in 1931, his parents were just simple peasants so he is one of those who survived the "starvation". Of course, he was too young to remember this time in detail but he talked with his parents, and he doesn't agree with your estimate of those events.
On the other hand, talking about protecting of people's private property, I would recommend to you to read the Constitution of Russian Federation. It says that in our country all type of property are equally respected. That means, that if the state has a duty to protect private property, it also has the same responsibility towards all other types of property - municipal, state, social, join-stock and so on. During the Soviet period of history a great industry was built in the Soviet Union - thousands of plants and factories. All this assets didn't belong to a certain person or a group of people - they were in a socialist property - the property of all Soviet people. So, how could it happen that all this property suddenly became a property of certain oligarchs in the 1990s when the liberal capitalist reforms started in the country approved by the Western politicians? Do you know what results these brought to Russian people? I'll tell you: deindustrialisation, impoverishment, social inequality, criminalization, corruption, decline in life expectancy, decline of birth-rate, terrorism ans so on. All this I saw in plenty an example with my own eyes. Have you ever worked without getting paid for three and more months when the inflation rate was more than 30%? I did. Have you ever received you wage not in money but in some natural goods, as, for example, sausage? I did.
So don't tell me about the great liberal values and the bad life in the Soviet Union.
Life in the Soviet Union was not easy, but there was a positive dynamic almost during the whole Soviet period. People always new, that to-day we maybe don't live very good, but to-morrow it will be better, and it really would happen.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

But now it's much better than in 90s and much bettre than in the USSR so maybe it's not that bad with tose "liberal values".
I'm afraid it wouldn't. Those were only promises, things stayed the same every year. But i may be wrong considering china. Chinese managed to make reforms without revolutions. Whie the rgime in china is still much more strict than in USSR (which is ok with the western media btw when russia is always accused in some laws that are more strict in those western countries)

^ Thanks. That's what makes this the most epic forum I've ever joined. And that's what I call history - people. Politicians and outsiders write the textbooks and media but it's the people who really know what happened... and what's happening.
Btw, I think the USSR knew that life would get better in Russia. I think they knew that the Russian people would make life better... and they did. In the end, it's not really about governments, it's only about the people.
It's people that make governments... and break them. I think in Russia the government is the people... Well, more than it is in America.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

Не читатйте СМИ и не смотрите ТВ! Ни Украинские ни Российские ни Американские ни Европейские (ни какие другие). Не превращайте свою голову в унитаз.

Я НИКОГДА о событиях на Украине не сужу по Российским СМИ.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

As Mikhail Bulgakov, who lived in Kiev, said "never read Soviet newspapers before dinner..."
http://video.yandex.ru/iframe/svyblov/p9vjvklf5b.2303

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

But now it's much better than in 90s and much bettre than in the USSR so maybe it's not that bad with tose "liberal values".

I'm afraid it wouldn't. Those were only promises, things stayed the same every year. But i may be wrong considering china. Chinese managed to make reforms without revolutions. Whie the rgime in china is still much more strict than in USSR (which is ok with the western media btw when russia is always accused in some laws that are more strict in those western countries)

I'm not against the "liberal values". In fact, I'm not against any great idealistic values at all be it religious values or humanitarian ones. I'm against fanatical adherence to any principles, because it leads to creation of idol, and that is violation of the 2nd Commandment:
"Вторая заповедь: Не сотвори себе кумира, и всякаго подобия, елика на небеси горе, и елика на земли низу, и елика в водах под землею: да не поклонишися им, ни послужиши им".
Those who impose on people fanatical adherence to maybe the most great values in fact very often appear to follow very low and greedy aims. So when you hear when smb praise some values ask yourself - what aims is he after?

As for Soviet stagnation, yes it had place, but it was only 1 or maybe 1,5 last decades of the Soviet period. In fact, that stagnation killed the Soviet Union.
As for the assertion, that life is now better than in the 90s - yes, but thanks to what? Thanks to selling gas and oil abroad - about 60% of the budget income is from this. It cannot last forever, we need to develop industry, and I don't see much advance in this.

Originally Posted by Hanna

However - I think this film depicts Moscow, right? Rural USSR was somewhat backwards, wasn't it - and went through hell in the 90s when state jobs and subsidies died. It was really sad, to see how the Russian countryside just feel through the floor in the 1990s. I just hope they are back on their feet. I don't know myself. But in Moscow it seems people have been doing fine most of the time.
[/I]

No. It depends on what you mean by "rural". In north (and area where i used to live was considered "north") ppl made even more money.
And the educartional level and culture was mostly the same.

My father was a research scientist (physics) and my mother was university profesor (befor they biult Krsnoyarsk university there used to be a branch of Novosibirsk university) and i recall that atmosphere of university. That was a nice time. Authorities didn't bother scientific society with ideology while paying them quite a good money so there was a smell of anti soviet romantics, dissident home made literature and lots of other interesting stuff.


If you mean agricultural sector that's true there was a decay almost all the late soviet time.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

As for the assertion, that life is now better than in the 90s - yes, but thanks to what? Thanks to selling gas and oil abroad - about 60% of the budget income is from this. It cannot last forever, we need to develop industry, and I don't see much advance in this.

That's true. But there is light. It takes time. It takes like 5 years to destroy everything (even shorter while looking at Ukraine) and 55 to rebiuld. (i hope that goes fater).

But look at norway btw. What do they produce besides pumping oil and gas? Not that much.

What is the population size of Norway? Less than 5 million. And the oil and gas income is only 30% of their state budget. Hm...

By the way, on the rise of prices in Crimea. Maybe it will surprise some Russian emigrants to know (я не перехожу на личности...), that unlike as it used to be in the Soviet times, the Russian government doesn't set the prices on consumer goods - we have liberal capitalist economy now (we appreciate the liberal values indeed!). So what is the accusation of the government about? It's the retailers who are to blame. Prices in Russia are higher than in Ukraine (because the standard of living is higher), but not twice. But you cannot deny that the government promised to gradually raise the pensions and it is fulfilling the promise.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

What is the population size of Norway? Less than 5 million. And the oil and gas income is only 30% of their state budget. Hm...

That's not true. And there's something else than just a state budget http://rosreferendum.com/information/menunorway.html

But the most important thing that Norway doesn't own their oil and gas, they just collect tax from BP.
Norway had exchanged their sovereignty for garanteed piece of their oil pie.
That's the best what they could do. Small country in Europe just had no choice when all the world oi is being sold for dollars.
And what they have in return? One of the happiest nation on earth.

But norway is a small nation. Furthermore they fully accept all the european "values".

Nobody would let russia be anything close to that. In 90s they were getting Russia redy to be thrown into chaos and split like Yugoslavia before and Ukraine now.
The phrase that "fossils belong to the people of Russia" was erased from the constitution. And Putin still can't brake through "liberal" resistence to bring it back.
Khodorkovsky was almost done with his deal of selling almost half of Siberia to BP. Etc

Originally Posted by SergeMak

By the way, on the rise of prices in Crimea. Maybe it will surprise some Russian emigrants to know (я не перехожу на личности...), that unlike as it used to be in the Soviet times, the Russian government doesn't set the prices on consumer goods - we have liberal capitalist economy now (we appreciate the liberal values indeed!). So what is the accusation of the government about? It's the retailers who are to blame. Prices in Russia are higher than in Ukraine (because the standard of living is higher), but not twice. But you cannot deny that the government promised to gradually raise the pensions and it is fulfilling the promise.

You started to discuss cuases of high prises having no idea what the prices really are. (I don't take into account provided links to Ukrainian media)
Half of this thread is full of basles cpeculations like this

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

But look at norway btw. What do they produce besides pumping oil and gas? Not that much.

As their neighbour and speaking the language, more or less... In addition to oil, they have
1) Fish, fish and more fish....
2) Svalbard and a slice of the Arctic and whatever is hidden there...
3) Ports to the Atlantic that Sweden and Finland use as well - it's a source of income.
4) A little bit of ship building - but it's cheaper to do it in Asia, so I don't know if it's still active.

The state there is HUGE and apparently very bureacratic in an old fashioned way. They never had to/needed to or wanted to slim down the state - so everything is very bureaeucratic.

They have managed the oil money quite well, paying back all debts and investing in public services.

The state, mainly, owns the oil, similar to in Russia, I think... But lots of private companies are involved in serving Statoil, that's what some people got rich on there.

They know they have to get ready for when the oil runs out and have lots of projects preparing for it.
Same dilemma as Russia I think. They know they need to diversify but it's not easy. .

Before they found the oil they were a well managed social democratic, and quite christian country. However, historically (pre-1950s or so, Norway was always poor, but people are hardworking and honest. They had a big transformation of society recently though. Same thing as the rest of Western Europe; issues with immigration and drastic rise in criminality.

But the most important thing that Norway doesn't own their oil and gas, they just collect tax from BP.
Norway had exchanged their sovereignty for garanteed piece of their oil pie.

Really? Are you sure about that? I thought that Statoil (state owned Norwegian official oil company). owned the Norwegian oil and BP or anyone else bought off them. In Scandianvia you see their oil tankers and petrol stations everywhere. I think it sells gas as well.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Statoil is similar in its structure, to Gazprom I believe.

Statoil is technically a bramch of BP. While on mass media it's more or less independent.
But i may be mistaken, information is pretty old.

Really? Are you sure about that?

I'm afraid i'm. But let me check for some sources

I thought that Statoil (state owned Norwegian official oil company). owned the Norwegian oil and BP or anyone else bought off them. In Scandianvia you see their oil tankers and petrol stations everywhere. I think it sells gas as well.

One of my clients owns a network of gas stations with signs "LUKOIL" whereas he only has a long term contract for supply with lukoil and nothing else.
In the US there are a bunch of gas companies with different fancy logos which are just branches of chevron

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

Statoil is technically a bramch of BP. While on mass media it's more or less independent.
But i may be mistaken, information is pretty old.

Oops, I was editing my post while you replied

I'm no expert on this either, but I don't think BP owns Statoil.
I recently worked at BP, I think I would have heard... And it's not in the Wikipedia article.
BP had a couple of thosand employees in Norway, which I remember from this previous job...

Statoil must employ 10,000 people, at least!

Anyway, their situation IS similar to Russia's, and they have a lot less oil than Russia.
They will face the end of oil and gas before Russia does.
Hopefully they have sorted something out by then - or it's back to fishing and knitting colourful cardigans for them...