Thread: "Russophobia" and "Russophilia" :)

I want to start a thread on this, because in certain European countries, it's getting completely out of hand. People are beginning to think that Putin is our time's Hitler, and that's media's work.

Obviously this thread is not relevant from the American perspective, since the USA has a larger population larger military and an ocean between themselves and Russia. So any Russophobia in the United States would be downright absurd.

However, in certain European nations, it's at least within the frame of the possible, to have a fear of Russia, because technically these countries are too small to stand up to Russia, should it be completely determined. Nevertheless, the thought is ludicrous from any economical, moral or political perspective.

Yet, open a paper in the Nordic countries, the Baltics, parts of Eastern Europe, and this is near hysteria.

An individual called Sergei Markov "Putin's deputy" said in preparation for a visit to Finland, that Russians are the new Jews, of Europe. It's fashionable to bash them, and no accusations are too far-fetched, insulting or proposterous.

Article here (can be translated from Swedish with automated translator - it's really good).
"Vill ni vara med och starta ett tredje världskrig?" | Hbl.fi

I was out of Scandinavia for 10 years when this extreme Russophobia apparently crept into the public consciousness via media (before that, it wasn't - during the Cold War media never took a stand - it was the golden rule then. During the 90s they were too busy writing about geographical changes, gangsters and criminality. Then came Putin and that's when it started.).

I started following Scandinavian press again some years ago, and Markov is right. It's insane:

One day it's belated Soviet bashing to make up for what they lost pre-91.
Then it's reporting about the RU army and its alleged plots on Europe.
Next its a full run down of everything that's wrong with Putin, including any similarities between him, and Hitler.
Then its politically correct stuff: Russians beat their wives! Russians are homophobic and racist! Russians booze! Last I read: Russian tourists are rude to European tourists in Turkey and Thailand. (well really! time to join nato...!)

You can prove anything you want with stats and subjective opionion.

On and on. New variations and repetition. Almost every day. Never anything positive. Just blackpainting, from any angle.

Open up an open forum and people will spew out insults and accusations about Russians. Usually completely unfounded in realit.

I understand how they turned people against the Jews in the 30s now. If you just read the same thing again and again, with no alternative perspective offered, most people will believe it. And if you say the others are hostile, people will get hostile back.
We see it from some on this forum here.

I really feel this is madness and it goes straight against Northern and Eastern European interests. Russia could be a great trading and cultural partner, and has very obviously left imperial aspirations behind. Russia has not attempted to throw its weight around in Europe, and is not stroppy about language, culture or its larger size (these are things that would make me annoyed). The criminality directly related to Russia has reduced to average levels. In REAL terms, there is no problem.

But to media - there will be a problem as long as there is a country called Russia. It should be split up into smaller parts and completely in US / EU reigns. A Russia that's not on its knees, like in its 90s, is a provocation....

For me, all this had the opposite effect. Russophilia. I always sort of liked Russia since childhood though. Had a gorgeous nested doll and watched lots of Ru kids programs on TV. LOL.

And lately: The more somebody tries to shove an opinion down my throat, the more liable I am to want to take the opposite views, to the extent that I have supported the annexation of Crimea, even though probably I would otherwise have been mildly against it. Watched RT, a channel I would probably never have bothered with had my interest in Russian language not suddenly awakened, and regular media lost its perspective on Russia.

Let's have a discussion about this - particularly relevant from other Euros if you read this.

Are you a Russophoble or a Russophile, or an interested observer? How did you reach your viewpoint?

I was out of Scandinavia for 10 years when this extreme Russophobia apparently crept into the public consciousness via media (before that, it wasn't - during the Cold War media never took a stand - it was the golden rule then. During the 90s they were too busy writing about geographical changes, gangsters and criminality. Then came Putin and that's when it started.).

No, you are not right. It didn't started with Putin's advent. Russophobia in Europe has a few centuries' long history. It's spinning its odious web since XVI century and probably has deeply penetrated European culture as well as that of USA as it is its direct heir.
That's what Wikipedia says on the subject (it's interesting how Russian and English articles differ):
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%F3%...80.D0.B8.D1.8F
Russophobia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I personally didn't notice it until ca 2004...

Although I remember in the 1990s bad guys/girls (gangsters) in Scandinavian films were always Russian. Or rather, people pretending to speak Russian.
It got really predictable; if a Russian person was in the plot, you knew that he was up to no good.

Personally, for my family, my dad lost a lot of money due to deals that went bad with Russia around 1991. Thank goodness the internet wasn't around in those days to document it. But it certainly didn't make me like Russia for the following decade, although it wasn't really anyone's fault in particular.

Before that - in my lifetime - no Russophobia in the extreme way we see now, although some of course disliked the USSR. I associated Russia with cosmonauts, ice hockey, chess, folk costumes and music/arts before then. A bit dull and old fashioned.... Some deep, artsy extentialist film on TV when you wanted something lightweight.

I think a couple of hundred years ago though, people in Sweden hated Russia because of the various wars and battles. There is a poem about it which people my father's age know by heart, against "Muscovites".
And I think Russians attacked at some point, and burned down a city in Sweden. But this is 100s of years ago... We did the same things to others...
So if you dig DEEP then yes, there is some Russophilia.

I think Poland has similar issues, maybe stronger in their case.

I know this is an awkward topic, but it's the reality of what's happening in Europe today.
It's a huge propaganda war against Russia.

I am against this type of either/or (for/against) approach; it tends to prevent reasonable debate. When categorized in either group, any argument (even a valid one) you might bring is somewhat devalued to begin with - as you are expected (and known to) to defend your category even at the expense of merit, logic or fairness.
In my opinion there exists a lot of middle ground. If you were born and raised in Russia, I would expect you to love and support your country; however that does not have to come at the cost of being completely blind. It also helps at times to be able to distinguish between country and government. The more dictatorial a government, the thinner this line of separation becomes.
If you are born outside Russia (like myself) you can easily have a very soft spot for Russia for:
* its deep culture and beautiful language
* its immense capacity for suffering and withstanding hardship
* its amazing pride and human spirit
* its significant contribution to history, all areas of science and politics
At the same time it is impossible not to recognize the harm and damage various Russian governments have brought to their own people (never mind others); many of Russia's/Soviet Union achievements (be it infrastructure, manufacturing, society restructuring or scientific developments) came at huge cost to the environment (think Nickel Norilsk) and damage to a section of the population (my own ancestors were caught up in this).
Be it as it may, I consider myself to be sympathetic towards Russia, but Russia as the country (its culture and its people) rather than the government. From a European perspective, I can only give a 'german' view; and there, I do not really see that extreme 'Anti-Russia' view. Most people are reasonable objective; yes - many are concerned about the recent Crimea/Ukraine activities, but so are they about the USA NSA spying activities and a lot of other issues.

Such "politically correct" attitude can be expressed towards any other nation/country including Germans and Germany. This attitude nevertheless has has no relation to the theme we are discussing. I am sure there is russophobia as a means for continuous brainwashing of Western people during decades if not centuries. Russophobia is instilled not as extreme 'Anti-Russia' view, as you said, but rather in small portions of arrogant, moralizing, mocking disparaging attitude towards Russian people, their customs and habits. You can see it in the Western press, movies, TV shows an so on. All this suggests disdain and disdain is the latent and thus the most dangerous kind of hatred. And it's useless to say that hatred is the other side of fear.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Such "politically correct" attitude can be expressed towards any other nation/country including Germans and Germany. This attitude nevertheless has has no relation to the theme we are discussing. I am sure there is russophobia as a means for continuous brainwashing of Western people during decades if not centuries. Russophobia is instilled not as extreme 'Anti-Russia' view, as you said, but rather in small portions of arrogant, moralizing, mocking disparaging attitude towards Russian people, their customs and habits. You can see it in the Western press, movies, TV shows an so on. All this suggests disdain and disdain is the latent and thus the most dangerous kind of hatred. And it's useless to say that hatred is the other side of fear.

This is produced by Western media but also promoted by the Kremlin/Putin to assist in brainwashing/indoctrinating people in Russia. The same 'us vs them' mentality and propaganda that the USA uses when they try to promote patriotism and obtain the favour required to justify their warmongering. That is quite ironic, isn't it?

But, really, the OP has little genuine interest in Russia and is gravely misinformed despite all the posts and time taken in the forums. I perceive a lot of boot licking of neo-Soviet and pro-Putin posters but very little substance and evidence of any real knowledge.

Putinist Russia is harmful and neglectful of ethnic Russians so he must invent an enemy and Western nations fit the bill nicely.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Such "politically correct" attitude can be expressed towards any other nation/country including Germans and Germany. This attitude nevertheless has has no relation to the theme we are discussing. I am sure there is russophobia as a means for continuous brainwashing of Western people during decades if not centuries. Russophobia is instilled not as extreme 'Anti-Russia' view, as you said, but rather in small portions of arrogant, moralizing, mocking disparaging attitude towards Russian people, their customs and habits. You can see it in the Western press, movies, TV shows an so on. All this suggests disdain and disdain is the latent and thus the most dangerous kind of hatred. And it's useless to say that hatred is the other side of fear.

Yes, I think you are spot on, and you are describing it better and more to the point than I did.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

For us in Scandinavia, it's particularly STRANGE that this enormous Russophobia has overtaken the whole area, when there is absolutely no good reason.

It's interesting that it stood out so much that this Sergei Markov particularly noticed it.

Some might say that political winds have changed, but they have changed in Russia too!

Russia has never tried to bully Scandinavia, hasn't done anything at all against us in any way, form or shape (I mean, in modern times). Finland and the Winter war - I don't agree with what the USSR did, but if you know the history it, it wasn't out of the blue, and the USSR would definitely have stopped with Finland, had it succeeded. It would have been no different than pre 1917.

At least for the the USA, it's "business as usual" to criticize Russia. But for me, I just don't see where this is coming from and what brought it on.

Example from today below. DN is the largest daily paper in Sweden. This type of article is EVERY day...

This one is for the more intellectual reader, who reads the Editorial....

Imperiedrömmar: Inför ryska hot måste vi stå enade - DN.SE

First paragraph translation:
---------------------------
Imperial Dreams: We must stand united against the threats from Russia
All of us who had hoped that Russia had put the imperial dreams behind it were brutally awakened by the crisis in Ukraine. The Georgia war of 2008 was a bad omen. Now we know for sure that V. Putin has embarked on a revisionist path, using aggressive nationalism as his tool. The only question is what risks he is prepared to take, and exactly what the size is, of the area to which Moscow considers itself entitled. (....)
---------------------------
Notice the dramatic and agitational tone!
"Let's stand united, blah, blah..."
And the implicit question mark "how big is this area....?" implying "it could be us... or our neighbour"
(which is ridiculous to the extent that it's not even worth commenting on. )

And "threats", what threats? Who exactly has Russia threatened and with what?
The article doesn't say, of course, because there is no substance to the claim.
But it makes a dramatic header.

And then the article manages to sneak in a few references about how "safe" the NATO countries are, while we are allegedly "exposed" to these "imperial dreams" of Putin.

It's total tosh obviously because there are NO quoted sources, nothing substantial at all, just an exercise in agitation at its crudest. It's not even serious journalism, and if you stop to think for one second.
And you could write an identical article about the USA of course. But they would never do that.

In a country that only has two national daily papers, the impact of this type of article is enormous.

And the Russia coverage it's just an endless cycle of "gays", "human rights", aggressive RU army exercises, Putin-is-bad etc.
There wasn't a fraction of this level of criticism against Russia during the Cold War, even though our press was not officially controlled by anyone. Now suddenly, Russia is super dangerous?! w00t? Why now?
To me, Russia is stable and predictable at the moment. The insight into what's going on is better than in Soviet times, and the lawless dangerous Russia of the 1990s has been quelled.

Where is this ending, or leading to?

I guess my best hypothesis is that some forces have decided that it's time for our country to join NATO and this is how to turn public opinion that was always against it. At least half the job is already done, in that case. Judging from the comments to the editorial.

Then for me, I overcompensate by being practically an apologetic for Russia, or a Russophile, lol,

@ SergeMak
the 'disdain' you feel Russia is the victim off, is no worse or better than the one dished out to many others; eg North Korea, USA (many criticise the USA just as much as Russia), Germany (remember the countless cheap war movies with 'bad, stereotyped' Germans in them), Iran, Israel, Palestina etc. It is purely a matter of perspective and being receptive to listening. It is obvious that being Russian you are less receptive for example for disdain being dished out towards Israel. I do not think that any individual country is treated in an particularly unfair manner...also remember that role players on the worldscene intrinsically affect more people; hence you cannot expect to be significant and be shielded from public scrutiny at the same time. Even here in Africa, people and media criticise China, Russia, the USA and Europe all the time - in no particular order.

We did the same things to others...

Oh yes, every Russian knows it very well:
Battle of Poltava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not think that any individual country is treated in an particularly unfair manner...

Oh, yeah! Tell this cow to the Serbs!

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Oh, yeah! Tell this cow to the Serbs!

Про Украину забыли.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Про Украину забыли.

Забудешь, как же...
В день Святой Троицы украинские вояки обстреляли храм, убили ребенка. Всю ночь обстреливали жилые кварталы Славянска, уже пустили в ход установки залпового огня. Борьба с терроризмом, говорите?

Сербов убивали иностранные агрессоры, а в Украине собственные военные устроили геноцид.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Забудешь, как же...
В день Святой Троицы украинские вояки обстреляли храм, убили ребенка. Всю ночь обстреливали жилые кварталы Славянска, уже пустили в ход установки залпового огня. Борьба с терроризмом, говорите?
Сербов убивали иностранные агрессоры, а в Украине собственные военные устроили геноцид.

Много противоречащих одна другой трактовок происходящего. Вот нагуглилось: ""Боевики разместили на территории церкви, недалеко от железнодорожного вокзала, артиллерийскую установку, с которой обстреливали жилые кварталы Славянска. В результате обстрела в городе получили повреждения несколько зданий", - отметил спикер АТО. "
Ужасно.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Вот нагуглилось

Ты еще нагугли, что в Луганске кондиционер взорвался и что в Одессе люди сами себя подожгли.

Поселок Семеновка (пригород Славянска) стерт с лица земли. Это тоже ополченцы сделали?

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Oh, yeah! Tell this cow to the Serbs!

@ Serge, I was talking about 'disdain being dished out', not anything else

Я не собираюсь комментировать слова спикера АТО, по крайней мере пока он еще на свободе, а не дает показания, сидя на скамье подсудимых.
Предлагаю вернуться к основной теме нашего разговора. Речь шла о русофобии и русофилии.
Еще раз повторю свое субъективное мнение - русофобия в Европе существует не просто как бытовое неприятие русских, как чужаков. Такое неприятие и подозрительность - распространенное явление, существующее во всех народах. Русофобия существует как сознательно внедряемая в сознание граждан на протяжении многих поколений идея.
По поводу русофилии - такого явления в России не существует и никогда не существовало. Существует идея славянофильства, но это несколько другая идея.

I'm neither. I was already exposed to Russian people in real-life early and I talk to them at a lot of sites online. So the only way I can discuss Russophobia or Russophilia is by talking about the Russian government and military.
The Russian people are the Slavic people and they're just people like anyone else. Each group of people have their own culture, traditions, and history and that's cool.
That's why the heroes in the book I'm writing are Dmitry (Russian) and Cory (American). I'm writing it that way so people can understand that heroes can be from any country, be friends, and work together to conquer evil. Because there aren't any geopolitical borders for good or evil. Both are everywhere in the world.
I know there was a lot of political/ethnic hating during the cold war - I read a lot about that. But it has to stop. The world can't afford another world war and every country should have the right to govern itself and deal with it's own issues.
About Crimea - The people decided to join Russia. About the Donbass - the people decided they wanted independence. I respect and I accept both decisions. About Obama/Poroshenko - It proves that evil can exist in any country since they both have tons of blood on their hands from the Donbass. It doesn't cause me to hate either country but it does cause me to hate the leaders.

But even leaders change. So I don't get how any intelligent person could be Rossophobic or Russophilic. I mean, nobody in America is gonna like/dislike everything that happens here and nobody in Russia is gonna like/dislike everything that happens there.
I remember that Maxmixiv showed me a picture of Omsk. It was a broken building with graffiti on the walls and some garbage laying around. But hey, you can see the same pictures of big American cities and it's the same. But the really important issue is just the people and not cities or buildings. Things can get damaged but they can also get fixed and it's people that do that.
So yeah, I think that anyone that has Russophobia or Russophilia needs to go home - they're drunk. And the only way to get sober is to ignore all the media and make your own decisions. The only thing that keeps propaganda alive is propaganda. When people stop reading and watching the propaganda (or even just know what it is), it dies. Oh, and stop looking at extreme patriotism and borders because borders are only doors to new worlds - not barriers that keep evil in or out because evil is everywhere. It's only laws that control evil and the laws are everywhere too.

Btw, I also believe that people and human conscience are way more important than politics. So people with the same values and the same morality should live together - That's how countries began.
And now that I'm thinking about that, maybe that's more important than whether somebody likes living in the country they're in. I mean, isn't it the same as being a hypocrite for someone to live in a country that doesn't support their values and morality?
Anyway, I'm very lucky that I was taught not to believe everything I see or hear.

I remember that Maxmixiv showed me a picture of Omsk. It was a broken building with graffiti on the walls and some garbage laying around.

Something else for you to remember of Omsk then

Любинский проспект

Иртышская набережная

Не реагируйте на нее, разве не понятно, что она специально провоцирует нас с целью перевести разговор на личности и закрыть тему под предлогом "оскорбления модератора", как уже бывало.
Давайте лучше по теме.
Eisenherz пишет: "Most people are reasonable objective; yes - many are concerned about the recent Crimea/Ukraine activities..."
Может быть объясните мне, почему воссоединение России с Крымом объявляется Западом "аннексией", а объединение Германий - нет?
Давайте посмотрим на факты: до 1990 г. на политической карте мира было 2 Германии - ФРГ и ГДР. После 1990 г. - осталась одна ФРГ, заметно увеличившаяся в размерах, а ГДР исчезла. Разве это не аннексия? Если бы то, что произошло, было действительно объединением, то должно было бы возникнуть некое новое государственное образование, с новым правительством, конституцией и т.д. Кстати, а кто-нибудь что-нибудь слышал о рефереднуме в ГДР по поводу присоединения к ФРГ? Я нет.
Так и где же объективность?

на мой взгляд, разница между 'German unification' и 'Crimea situation' большой.
но, думаю что должно быть другая тема.

[i'd be happy to contribute to a debate around this, but as this detracts from the Russiaphobia/Russiaphilic topic, I think this would rather belong to a different topic/thread]