Thread: "Russophobia" and "Russophilia" :)

Режим Пол Пота не поддерживался Советским Союзом. Во время революции в Камбоджии (Кампучии) было разрушено советское посольство, а советских дипломатов собирались расстрелять. Посольство, правда, удалось эвакуировать. Пол Пот придерживался очень радикальных взглядов, в основе которых был положен моаизм. С Китаем у Советского Союза в тот период времени отношения тоже были очень плохие - чуть ли не на грани войны. В конце концов, конец правительству Пол Пота положила Вьетнамская народная армия - армия социалистического государства, чем спровоцировала вооруженную агрессию Китая (тоже социалистического государства). Так что не надо равнять под одну гребенку все социалистические страны.
Я прекрасно помню, что времена моего детства и юнности, пришедшиеся как раз на тот период (я родился в 1969 году), дня не было, чтобы в газетах и по телевизору не говорили о "кровавом режиме Пол Пота".

Russian embassy in Kiev vandalised, and Ukrainian minster calling Putin a f---cker on TV.

That "minister" had done a great favor to his russian counterpart

Russophobia in europe is always a bad sign
but it used to end up more or less the same so far

«Россия - карлик, я поставлю её на колени.» Карл 12-й, XVIII век.
Швеция навсегда лишилась статуса великой державы.

«Я покорю отсталую Россию.» Фридрих, середина XVIII века.
В 1759 году русская армия вошла в Берлин.

«Россия - колосс на глиняных ногах.» Наполеон, XIX век.
В 1814 году русская армия взяла Париж.

«Я завоюю СССР к концу года.» Гитлер, XX век.
В 1945 году покончил с собой, когда советская армия вошла в Берлин. 

«Россия – всего лишь региональная держава» Барак Обама, март 2014 года........
Ждём......

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

That "minister" had done a great favor to his russian counterpart

Russophobia in europe is always a bad sign
but it used to end up more or less the same so far

«Россия - карлик, я поставлю её на колени.» Карл 12-й, XVIII век.
Швеция навсегда лишилась статуса великой державы.

«Я покорю отсталую Россию.» Фридрих, середина XVIII века.
В 1759 году русская армия вошла в Берлин.

«Россия - колосс на глиняных ногах.» Наполеон, XIX век.
В 1814 году русская армия взяла Париж.

«Я завоюю СССР к концу года.» Гитлер, XX век.
В 1945 году покончил с собой, когда советская армия вошла в Берлин. 

«Россия – всего лишь региональная держава» Барак Обама, март 2014 года........
Ждём......

Yes, history definitely confirms this. It's tragic that all these defeated empires have come at such a high price for regular people in Russia.
Death, destruction, "scorched earth" etc.

I am Swedish as you know, but when I went to school, mainly in the 1980s, Karl XII was incredibly impopular (politically incorrect), as well as that entire period of history. I hardly learned anything about him at all - it was all brushed over.

However in the past he used to be considered a big hero; poems written about him etc. Older people can recite them by heart. Since he lost the Swedish empire, I don't really understand why anyone thought him a hero. The school version was that he was only 15 or something like that, when he became king. He was brought up to glorify war, and was manipulated into the war with Russia by advisors with ulterior motives. The huge defeats against Russia "cured" Sweden of any interest in wars until this day, which is probably a good thing. Personally I think it's a shame that all that territory was lost, but as far as I understand it, most of the aggression came from us, not from Russia (per school history, but I am sure a nationalist would think it was completely justified!) so based on what little I know about it, there is no strong reason to feel slighted. Plus, it was a long time ago...

I very clearly remember my history teacher saying that "nobody can win a war of invasion against Russia", explaining why in terms of geography, natural factors and Russia's traditional tactics. She said others have tried before from the south and the east, we were among the first modern European nations to find that out, then half of Europe went on to repeat the same mistake citing the list, which matches yours above.

But then just a few years later, I read "what nobody in Europe could do with bayonets, cannons and tanks, the Americans did with Coca Cola, rock'n'roll and entertainment and a spending race (i.e.win the Cold War and get Russia on its knees).

I don't really understand why anyone thought him a hero.

Napoleon had lost the war too but he's a hero for a lot of nations in europe. Before he went to russia he gave europe law and some other things.

what nobody in Europe could do with bayonets, cannons and tanks, the Americans did with Coca Cola, rock'n'roll and entertainment

All fell (including ukraine, yugoslavia and other) but Russia went through communism (which was also british-American gift) went through Coca Cola, rock'n'roll and entertainment and some other in 90s... but survived and now is washing all the sht away.
What about spending race... nobody knows how long it's left fot dollar bubble to grow before it explodes. So who's finally the winner is a question.
That's why they are all so histerical. (when they are confident of victory they are calm and smiling, but now things are a bit different)


Great peacful but inconquerable nation is standing up again.

Yes, as long as Russia doesn't turn into a bully, and starts behaving like the USA, then I hope that it rises fast again.

As for the USA I think it is in self destruct mode, and it might well take Europe with it.
We are in the same hook as of the War, and the Eastern European countries, partly too, since 1990.

I'm referring to things like destruction of family values, rampant immoral values, culture of corporate greed and excessive consumption, environment and the death of privacy.
Taking on millions upon millions of people with little or no education, who can't read and write, have totally different cultures and little interest in adapting along with violent pasts where they came from. Then handing out benefits year after year to such people while they sit on their back without working.
I think all of this and more, is destroying Europe and the US to varying degrees from within.

Russia isn't into that to the same extent. I think it goes without saying that all of the above undermines the strength and future of Europe and the USA.

The USA has its dollar bubble that must burst eventually, like you say. Unless they start using weapons to turn things to their advantage. But that would also expose them in front of the whole world. I think the US is beginning to get exposed for what it is now, to more and more people, even in Europe. Whereas neither Russia nor China does much that could possibly annoy people in the Middle East, East Asia, Africa or South America.
I believe it's living on borrowed time.

Russia and China having more stability in the leadership, and a history of long term planning, socialist style, can be much more methodical and strategic about its actions.
For the USA, it's all "here and now". What can make us the most money right here and now? What will win the election in a year? Short term idiotic goals that will eventually lead to destruction. While China, and probably Russia is having a much longer perspective in mind.
I think this type of patience and strategical thinking pays off, while short term opportunism is ultimately

Russia has to eliminate corruption though! And reduce the class differences between the poor in the countryside and the rich in the large cities.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Russian embassy in Kiev vandalised, and Ukrainian minster calling Putin a f---cker on TV.

Originally Posted by The Guardian

However, Geoff Pyatt, the US ambassador to Ukraine, wrote on Twitter that the minister had been "seeking to defuse a dangerous situation", calling Deshchytsia "a skilled diplomat and credit to Ukraine".

I wonder if he had said the same, if a Russian had been standing outside the US embassy in Moscow shouting "Obama is a f---cker".

In London, you can't get anywhere near the US embassy to protest, or security policy will pick you up and you will end up on watch lists.
If somebody in London went and tried to shout "Obama is a f---cker" outside the US embassy, he'd go to prison.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

@ Uhohxplode
i do not understand why you keep on complaining about Obama...
for you it is the 2nd best government in the world (just behind Russia) - so surely they cannot be that bad.
you are wrong about Rwanda not being a threat to another country; the fighting in Rwanda casued havoc in Eastern Congo; so much so that basically the Kinshasa government at the time basically lost all control of the eastern regions.
Other than that i agree with your post regarding the feeble attempt by the UN to step in.

2nd best government in the world - Not the 2nd best leaders. Even people that voted for Obama don't like Obama, lol. People are saying that he could be the worst President in American history.
Oh, and I didn't know the Rwandan Genocide was a threat to other countries. The article I read was posted by a Rwandan woman that survived the genocide. Her baby was cut in half and she was beaten in the swamp and left for dead. I can't even imagine that kind of cruelty. That genocide shoulda been stopped before it ever started.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Russian embassy in Kiev vandalised, and Ukrainian minster calling Putin a f---cker on TV.

Is there any intelligent life in Kiev? They look like savages. But if that's what the EU wants then... good luck...

Originally Posted by Hanna

I wonder if he had said the same, if a Russian had been standing outside the US embassy in Moscow shouting "Obama is a f---cker".
In London, you can't get anywhere near the US embassy to protest, or security policy will pick you up and you will end up on watch lists.
If somebody in London went and tried to shout "Obama is a f---cker" outside the US embassy, he'd go to prison.

How old is Geoffrey Pyatt? 2? 3? Does he even have an IQ? Now I understand why Ukraine is having a civil war. People like Pyatt would be perfect tools for starting wars.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

LOL! Ukraine sold itself to the lowest bidder! So maybe the best way to deal with Kiev is to do and say stupid stuff. It seems to attract them.

Anyway, while I was gone I stayed in the loop with what's happening in Ukraine and Iraq. I was shocked that the west blocked condemnation of the attack on the Russian embassy in Kiev - I was hoping the west was at least that civilized but no.
It was an obvious violation of International Law and it should have been condemned automatically. The UN is guilty of ethnic prejudice and of violating it's own principles.

Ukrainian so called government is just doing what they are told by the US.
Political (and may be phisical) life of those "ministers", "prime ministers" and "presidents" fully depends on their success in defeating and depopulating Donbass (after they lost Crimea).
Washington doesnt need western ukraine, the US want to get south east resources and to cut russia off europe.


That reminds me of iraq WMD.
Lying, denying obvous reality is old tactics.
But this time it looks more like histerics.
Either they have some secret tricky plan or it's just an agony.

Let's wait and see

All of this has really opened up my eyes about what the EU has become. It's not just the USA driving this. EU is just as guilty, in relation to Ukraine. It's really breaking my heart. I can't deny that the EU has become a monster, and it's not just Ukraine but also Syria and Libya.

I really wanted to see the good in the EU, but it's getting harder and harder. I'm getting to the point that I am beginning to feel that I was wrong, when I was so pro EU back in the 90s. I guess it was disillusion with socialism (which I had more or less believed in with varying level of strength while growing up), and feeling that "Russia is a dump and the USSR was a hoax" (back in the 90s, that's how it seemed...) I've always been very suspicious against the US, so that ideology was never even on the agenda.
The EU and European unity was almost the last nice ideal left to believe in! Sadly it has become:

1) an US puppet,
2) a very un-democratic entity
3) a joke of a union - most Europeans simply don't feel any loyalty towards countries at the other end of the union. At the most, they feel some limited brotherhood with a couple of neighbours, and not even that is a given. There is no ethnic, religious, ideological or other relevant glue to keep the EU together.
4) The Euro wasn't properly managed and proved to be more than certain countries could responsibly handle. Some of the countries that were needed to make the Euro a success, refused to join it. Other countries that would like to use it, are not allowed.
5) We have first, second and third class European nations, one nation that doesn't want to be in the EU at all, and simply sabotages the positive projects.
6) The open borders, while lovely for regular people have also given non European economic migrants, opportunistic gypsies and all kinds of criminals free reign. I personally hated the border checks pre-EU but we might soon get to a point when they are the lesser of many evils. Some countries like the UK never scrapped it to begin with.

The EU is partly responsible for these lost lives in Ukraine. The EU has dangled a carrot under the noses of Ukrainians who obviously deluded themselves about what their realistic prospects are, in relation to the EU.
They showeved attention, money and support over the various coup makers, leaders etc in connection with the coup d'etat.
Normally they wouldn't give time of the day to Ukraine.

They will not sort out the Ukraine's economy in a positive way, they'll turn it into a new market for EU junk products, a sweatshop location and haven for shady EU companies that can't operate above the light in Germany or the UK, similar to Romania. The Ukraine will be used as a pawn in the game against Russia, similar to Poland and the Baltics. All the while the well educated emigrate. I think the Ukrainians will fined. Any profits generated in Ukraine will leave the country, probably un-taxed.

I have no realistic idea whether Russia treated Ukraine better, but I would have thought so, and that Ukraine was on a much more equal and favoured position in relation to Moscow compared with Brussels.

And still, the EU has to survive, or else the US will subordinate the European countries one by one. The real struggle that we are witnesses to is between the US and China for the right to dominate on the European market. Of course, it would be much better for Europe and Russia if we could manage to establish friendly and mutually beneficial relations. But this needs that a new generation of politicians came to power who can realize that Russia isn't a threat to Europe.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

And still, the EU has to survive, or else the US will subordinate the European countries one by one. The real struggle that we are witnesses to is between the US and China for the right to dominate on the European market. Of course, it would be much better for Europe and Russia if we could manage to establish friendly and mutually beneficial relations. But this needs that a new generation of politicians came to power who can realize that Russia isn't a threat to Europe.

We haven't been able to stand up to the US as a union though. Instead, it's become the US accomplice, and a stronger one than any of the countries individually. If anyone is going to stand up to the US, sadly I don't think it's going to be us. But that, and holding our own against Asia was one of the reasons I supported the EU idea so strongly back whenever. It was also to protect against right wing dictatorships in the South European countries, and at the time it seemed that it would be the best thing for Eastern Europe where people were just disillusioned and miserable back then.
Personally because I

As for China, I fear the day they really become economically stronger than Europe.
I have worked enough with Asians to know how cut-throat and ruthless they are in business and work situations. Even Americans are nicer to work for in comparison with Japanese and Indians (I assume China and South Koreans are similar). And Americans are more similar culture and race.

They can't behave like that in Europe right now, because we are still holding our ground. But this may change.

Russophobia is a bad thing. Nobody should hate people, just because they were born in Russia. That is wrong. I see it as racism.

rather interesting article
Indications that the U.S. Is Planning a Nuclear Attack Against Russia

Jag är en vacker och genomklok och lagom tjock man i mina bästa år

I will pay close attention to what you have to say then!

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

rather interesting article
Indications that the U.S. Is Planning a Nuclear Attack Against Russia

Nah..... Those facts he mention must be a co-incidence. Well argued and presented, but too far fetched.
But I'll tell you what - if they ban or somehow get RT off the air in the USA, then I'll believe they are up to something big. RT is driving Washington nuts and it's telling truths to Americans every day, that they are not supposed to know. So if they planned something, they would have to get RT off the air, just for starters. As well as restricting the internet, but I think there is a plan for that.

While I wouldn't put it beyond the USA to cook up a reason as to why Russia must be attacked with nukes (the usual drawl about terrorism, human rights, democracy or something), they would need a propaganda campaign of at least a few years to convince even half their population that there was any merit to it. They want to keep up the illusion of being a democracy that fights for things like human rights. Attacking Russia which simply can't be accused of the normal "atrocities" or "terrorism" would be hard to justify.

Or am I giving them more credit than they deserve here? Maybe the Putin-is-Hitler rhetoric is about exactly that. Seems too mad to be true though.

Another reason: I personally think there is a certain amount of racism (or simply valuing white/Caucasian Christian lives more than moslem, Asian or African) in all these US invasions and wars. Russians are mostly white, Christian and certainly educated. Americans don't want to fight white, educated Christians. Europeans may not love Putin, and some may have a historical grief with Russia. But nobody wants to see Moscow nuked (other than maybe Carl Bildt and William Hague). I am sure of that.

It was the same thing in the Cold War. They never dared to take on any actual Soviets directly, it was always a war through proxy; Vietnam, Korea, Laos and various other places in South America, Asia and Africa. Between the US and the USSR it was almost a gentleman's quarrel between spies and politicians. The people who died, were people in developing or less fortunate countries.

Back in the Cold War days, hardly no Americans had been to the USSR. Almost any propaganda/lies could be told and nobody would would be the wiser. To this day, most Americans believe the average day in the USSR was like living in a prison colony. (I have no idea what Russians believed about the USA, or if it was as badly misrepresented).

Today, there must be hundreds of thousands of Americans who have visited Russia. And there are hundreds of thousands of people living in the US, who were born in Russia. They couldn't pull off a Cold War style propaganda campaign today, because too many people would be able to expose it. And if they went to war against public opinion, they would expose themselves as true fascists to their own population.
Plus, as any cold war child knows: If one of these countries attack the other, they will doom themselves at the same time, and take most of Europe with them.

No way the Americans will risk that. They can't use nukes against a country that has nukes itself and can retailiate against them or their allies. That's the only line they won't cross, and that's probably why it's driving them nuts when countries they don't like get nukes.

Obama clearly means business here, and so the government that we have installed in Kiev is bombing throughout southeastern Ukraine, in order to convince the residents there that resistance will be futile. Part of the short-term goal here is to get Russia to absorb the losses of all of Ukraine's unpaid debts to Russia, so that far less of Ukraine's unpaid debts to the IMF, U.S. and E.U., will remain unpaid. It's basically an international bankruptcy proceeding, but without an international bankruptcy court, using instead military means. It's like creditors going to a bankrupt for repayment, and the one with the most gunmen gets paid, while the others do not. This is the reason why the IMF ordered the leaders in Kiev to put down the rebellion in Ukraine's southeast.

Touché. The only thing that is incomprehensible about this, is why Ukrainians, whether they like Russia/Putin or not, let themselves be used to run the errands of IMF, Washington and Brussels at their own expense.

in my opinion - despite some shortcomings - the level of democracy in most European countries is still head and shoulders above most other places around the world.
i would hardly call it an 'undemocratic monster'.
the consistant level of reasonably free and fair elections and a low-level corruption justice system as we have in most EU countries just does not exist elsewhere (save for very few exceptions like maybe Canada, New Zealand, Japan); certainly hardly anyone in Africa comes close and not many in far or near east, or for that matter South or Middle America.

Originally Posted by Hanna

All of this has really opened up my eyes about what the EU has become. It's not just the USA driving this. EU is just as guilty, in relation to Ukraine. It's really breaking my heart. I can't deny that the EU has become a monster, and it's not just Ukraine but also Syria and Libya.

I really wanted to see the good in the EU, but it's getting harder and harder. I'm getting to the point that I am beginning to feel that I was wrong, when I was so pro EU back in the 90s. I guess it was disillusion with socialism (which I had more or less believed in with varying level of strength while growing up), and feeling that "Russia is a dump and the USSR was a hoax" (back in the 90s, that's how it seemed...) I've always been very suspicious against the US, so that ideology was never even on the agenda.
The EU and European unity was almost the last nice ideal left to believe in! Sadly it has become:

1) an US puppet,
2) a very un-democratic entity
3) a joke of a union - most Europeans simply don't feel any loyalty towards countries at the other end of the union. At the most, they feel some limited brotherhood with a couple of neighbours, and not even that is a given. There is no ethnic, religious, ideological or other relevant glue to keep the EU together.
4) The Euro wasn't properly managed and proved to be more than certain countries could responsibly handle. Some of the countries that were needed to make the Euro a success, refused to join it. Other countries that would like to use it, are not allowed.
5) We have first, second and third class European nations, one nation that doesn't want to be in the EU at all, and simply sabotages the positive projects.
6) The open borders, while lovely for regular people have also given non European economic migrants, opportunistic gypsies and all kinds of criminals free reign. I personally hated the border checks pre-EU but we might soon get to a point when they are the lesser of many evils. Some countries like the UK never scrapped it to begin with.

It's not good or bad. The world is just divided into parts that are serving growing dollar system.
1. the metropolia
2. the consumers (golden billion)
3. the sweatshop
4. the others still unliberated

The 1st is not goegraphical region i think. It's more like club of companies which are big enough to be above national laws. They control their tools - the US government, NATO, IMF and some others.

Second- the consumers. Those in europe, north america and some in asia.
The culture of consuming doesn't imply any hesitation betweengst advertising and purchase. that's why

destruction of family values, rampant immoral values

only those are perfect consumers who don't have any obligations to each other, any memory and any traditions.
whose only obligation is in time credit payment.

third - the sweatshop. Those are to follow their carrot as long as possible.

the other - is what is dangerous to the system. And the main danger is Ruissia.\

Of course in reality it is more complex but general picture looks like this.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Another reason: I personally think there is a certain amount of racism (or simply valuing white/Caucasian Christian lives more than moslem, Asian or African) in all these US invasions and wars. Russians are mostly white, Christian and certainly educated. Americans don't want to fight white, educated Christians. Europeans may not love Putin, and some may have a historical grief with Russia. But nobody wants to see Moscow nuked (other than maybe Carl Bildt and William Hague). I am sure of that.

THat's true. Russia seems to be only indo-european nation (alon with those ethnic groups withing russian borders and some beyond) that is getting out of that dollar system again.

Originally Posted by eisenherz

in my opinion - despite some shortcomings - the level of democracy in most European countries is still head and shoulders above most other places around the world.
i would hardly call it an 'undemocratic monster'.
the consistant level of reasonably free and fair elections and a low-level corruption justice system as we have in most EU countries just does not exist elsewhere (save for very few exceptions like maybe Canada, New Zealand, Japan); certainly hardly anyone in Africa comes close and not many in far or near east, or for that matter South or Middle America.

First i think you confuse EU commissons and european national electoral systems.

Second, even european national legislature is not as democratic as it appears in mass media (which mostly form the opinions). I personally had to deal with austrian law and it appeared to be much more stupid and undemocratic than "totalitarian" USSR law.