Thread: "Russophobia" and "Russophilia" :)

Ok what about this then? A typical story about Russia on the BBC. If it's not anti Putin then it's anti USSR story. This one is kind of interesting:

The first Russian copy of Doctor Zhivago by Boris Palsternak, was published by the CIA and distributed to the USSR in 1988 (I'll take a wild guess that it was circulating before that as well, informally).
However, per the BBC it was the CIA that brought this masterpiece to Russia. BBC News - How the CIA secretly published Dr Zhivago

Right or wrong? Any other books you want the CIA to publish for you you, folks?

Have you read the book (I haven't, but I watched the British film with Kiera Knightley...)

The CIA's Doctor Zhivago project was part of a wider effort by the agency to get forbidden novels into Eastern bloc countries, including books by George Orwell, James Joyce, Vladimir Nabokov and Ernest Hemingway.

Sneaky anti-Russia psy-ops tactics, or serves the USSR right for not allowing the books?

As I understand it, this type of stuff still goes on, although slightly a bit more low key. Putin knows it, and has done things like challenge the British council and US "human rights" organisations for the most blatant cases.

Other books printed by the CIA and distributed to Eastern Europe according to the BBC.

• A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man by James Joyce, which is about a young man who questions and rebels against his upbringing
• Animal Farm, described by its author George Orwell as a "satirical tale against Stalin"
• Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell
• The God That Failed - essays by six ex-communist writers who had grown disillusioned with communism
• Pnin by Vladimir Nabokov, which follows a Russian-born professor living in the US

Oh yeah, what a scary monster ready to eat up the glorious socialist society ideals was unveiled --- forbidden novels! Interestingly enough, while people in the U.S. could still read the commie manifesto if they wanted to, people in the USSR had to seek sneaky ways to read Orwell, for instance. He was right, btw, about the year of 1984 in certain areas. And all the freaking tyrants out there should already know that even if they can kill and incarcerate millions of people, they cannot defeat art, creativity and people's will for change, and it's them and their regimes who will be defeated in the end.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Oh yeah, what a scary monster ready to eat up the glorious socialist society ideals was unveiled --- forbidden novels! Interestingly enough, while people in the U.S. could still read the commie manifesto if they wanted to, people in the USSR had to seek sneaky ways to read Orwell, for instance. He was right, btw, about the year of 1984 in certain areas. And all the freaking tyrants out there should already know that even if they can kill and incarcerate millions of people, they cannot defeat art, creativity and people's will for change, and it's them and their regimes who will be defeated in the end.

Wow! How brave it is to struggle against a "monster" that was defeated a quarter of century ago! But let me warn you that while you are revelling in kicking a dead lion a real monster is rising up behind you back. The US army killed about 200 000 civilian people during the 1st war in Iraq and more than a million during the second war. And the people of the US just closed their eyes on that, as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. But don't have any illusions that this monster will not discard you life as it has already discarded millions of innocent lives all over the world when it sees fit. Remember: the bell tolls for you...

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Wow! How brave it is to struggle against a "monster" that was defeated a quarter of century ago! But let me warn you that while you are revelling in kicking a dead lion a real monster is rising up behind you back. The US army killed about 200 000 civilian people during the 1st war in Iraq and more than a million during the second war. And the people of the US just closed their eyes on that, as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. But don't have any illusions that this monster will not discard you life as it has already discarded millions of innocent lives all over the world when it sees fit. Remember: the bell tolls for you...

Some propagandist poster here said something about CIA helping people of Eastern Europe get novels banned by their commie regimes, and I had to respond, I just didn't quote the text, but I think it was pretty obvious what I was responding to. My point was that regimes that fight books and writers do not end up well, and that those who do now might want to think of how THAT monster ended to stop making the same mistakes. You're right that I cannot fight something that's already down, and I have no such goal whatsoever.

And you have no doubt my friend, that those giving orders to the media you watch to show how the "evil Ukrainian troops" use "phosphorous bombs" against "civilians" will discard your life just as well, when they think time is right.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

regimes that fight books and writers do not end up well

Yes. In Germany they banned some interesting books of some rather famous polititian. Poor Germany.

And you have no doubt my friend, that those giving orders to the media you watch to show how "evil" Ruaains give orders to the media will discard your life just as well, when they think time is right.

Ханночка, не надо обзывать участников форума русофобами. Во-первых, это обижает, во-вторых - я уверена, что ты неправа. Я эту тему внимательно не читаю, но к тому, кто не одобряет политику государства или относится критически, это слово не относится. Это как отождествлять политику с культурой.

Полностью согласен с модератором, обзывать никого никогда и ни кем нельзя.

(Whereas those ppl use to call Hanna anti-american while she always points out tha she's only anti american government and foreign policy. Но они почему-то замечаний от медораторов не получают)

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Wow! How brave it is to struggle against a "monster" that was defeated a quarter of century ago! But let me warn you that while you are revelling in kicking a dead lion a real monster is rising up behind you back. The US army killed about 200 000 civilian people during the 1st war in Iraq and more than a million during the second war. And the people of the US just closed their eyes on that, as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. But don't have any illusions that this monster will not discard you life as it has already discarded millions of innocent lives all over the world when it sees fit. Remember: the bell tolls for you...

-> "as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. "
You are a troll. Same as the other neo-Soviet posters. Why not just say who you are?

BS about 'neo-fascist' Kiev government is getting old. What is it about them that fits that description? Russia bans publications and has lots of censorship. There's more freedom in Ukraine than in Russia. That might change with the pro-Western EU dictatorship but saying they are 'neo-fascist' CURRENTLY is not just exaggeration, it's utter BS. Russia is a neo-soviet dictatorship right now but do you complain or talk about that? НЕТ! Until then, you are just a hypocrite parroting the same old rhetoric that your Kremlin media dictates to you. Learn to think for yourself, huh?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

There's more freedom in Ukraine than in Russia.

Have you been there?

Originally Posted by 14Russian

You are a troll. Same as the other neo-Soviet posters. Why not just say who you are?

Originally Posted by Lampada

Ханночка, не надо обзывать участников форума

Yankee Doodle-doodle-doo

Originally Posted by 14Russian

-> "as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. "
You are a troll. Same as the other neo-Soviet posters. Why not just say who you are?

BS about 'neo-fascist' Kiev government is getting old. What is it about them that fits that description? Russia bans publications and has lots of censorship. There's more freedom in Ukraine than in Russia. That might change with the pro-Western EU dictatorship but saying they are 'neo-fascist' CURRENTLY is not just exaggeration, it's utter BS. Russia is a neo-soviet dictatorship right now but do you complain or talk about that? НЕТ! Until then, you are just a hypocrite parroting the same old rhetoric that your Kremlin media dictates to you. Learn to think for yourself, huh?

Is insult all you are capable of? Do you really think that insulting other members of the forum makes you look any smarter or somehow better? it's pathetic! I just don't care.
All I know, the bell tolls for you too.
PS. Russia is far from neo-Soviet. Russia has almost the same political and economical model of oligarchic monopolistic capitalism as Ukraine has, imputed by the IMF after the break-up of the Soviet Union. The only difference is that in Ukraine the oligarchs have completely subdued the state to their private needs, while in Russia they haven't succeeded that goal completely due to Putin's so-called "dictatorship".

Originally Posted by SergeMak

All I know, the bell tolls for you too.

So, the bell tolls for anyone who happens to disagree with your view of the world? You know, insulting someone just coz you two can't agree on something isn't good either, but it's still better than threatening. Think about that. Seriously.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Is insult all you are capable of? Do you really think that insulting other members of the forum makes you look any smarter or somehow better? it's pathetic! I just don't care.
All I know, the bell tolls for you too.
PS. Russia is far from neo-Soviet. Russia has almost the same political and economical model of oligarchic monopolistic capitalism as Ukraine has, imputed by the IMF after the break-up of the Soviet Union. The only difference is that in Ukraine the oligarchs have completely subdued the state to their private needs, while in Russia they haven't succeeded that goal completely due to Putin's so-called "dictatorship".

Funny slogans doesn't improve your argument. (Вытерто. Л.) Maybe, you suspect you are wrong, if my post bothers you?

PS. Russia is far from neo-Soviet. -> Seriously? LOL! There's Russians in Russia who have written to great extent on this. But, yes, go ahead and tell me your claim. It's amusing.

Russia is imposing it's neo-Soviet framework, Ukraine is not. Yes, Ukraine is probably moving towards a corrupt Western system but that doesn't make it 'neo-Soviet.' You know the difference between our arguments? You're a neo-Soviet apologist and critique the West. I criticize both.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

Check your map honey...

I did check my map.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

If everyone is truly happy being who they are, no matter how much they differ, that nation is unconquerable. Collectivists just don't get this. It's people who make up a nation, not the other way around.

Interesting. They couldn't defeat art, creativity and peoples' will for change when Rome fell. That started the Dark Ages...
Btw, Russia is over 1,000 years old and it's still unconquered Russia. So there must be a lot of happy Russians. America is less than 240 years old. I wonder if it will still be here 760 years from now...

People really must have been obsessed with Russia in the 20th century! I really don't get why the CIA spends so much time and money trying to destabilize every country on the planet. And I wonder who's next now that they've destabilized Ukraine...
Btw, the peace talks in the Donbas are breaking down. The separatists shot down a Ukrainian military chopper that was flying over Lugansk. I wonder why Kiev would order a military chopper into Lugansk during a cease-fire. It would be the perfect time for a military strike against more citizens...
Anyway, President Putin says he will use the Russian military if necessary to protect the ethnic-Russians and other civilians in southeastern Ukraine.
Ukrainian cease-fire in peril amid new violence

How appropriate that we get two perfect examples of Russophobes and their opinions following each other in this thread. Since neither poster will own up to a nationality, it's hard to know exactly what has influenced and contributed to their Russophobia, but their comments are so predictable that we can probably guess without too much trouble.
Thank you boys for your contributions.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How appropriate that we get two perfect examples of Russophobes and their opinions following each other in this thread. Since neither poster will own up to a nationality, it's hard to know exactly what has influenced and contributed to their Russophobia, but their comments are so predictable that we can probably guess without too much trouble.
Thank you boys for your contributions.

Ханночка, не надо обзывать участников форума русофобами. Во-первых, это обижает, во-вторых - я уверена, что ты неправа. Я эту тему внимательно не читаю, но к тому, кто не одобряет политику государства или относится критически, это слово не относится, если я значение этого слова правильно понимаю. Это как отождествлять политику с культурой.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

Wow! How brave it is to struggle against a "monster" that was defeated a quarter of century ago! But let me warn you that while you are revelling in kicking a dead lion a real monster is rising up behind you back. The US army killed about 200 000 civilian people during the 1st war in Iraq and more than a million during the second war. And the people of the US just closed their eyes on that, as well as they don't notice now how the Kievan neo-fascist junta burns civilian people with banned phosphorous bombs, supplied by the US in the South-East regions of Ukraine. It's very convenient to be pleasantly blind and see only those things that please your eyes. But don't have any illusions that this monster will not discard you life as it has already discarded millions of innocent lives all over the world when it sees fit. Remember: the bell tolls for you...

^ QFT

The Kiev government is a collection of neo-fascists but don't forget, they also never arrested the ones that burned those people alive in the Union building in Odessa. Since my country didn't take any action to denounce the Kiev government then I can only conclude that my government supports burning innocent people alive, shelling civilians, and burning them with phosphorous weapons. Only a monster would support those things. But hey, only a monster woulda supported the shelling of Yugoslavia so there's obviously been a lot of monsters in the White House.

Why are we even discussing book banning? There's a huge list of books that are banned in the US. I think every country bans some books. And don't forget, the only reason the CIA wanted those books in the USSR was to destabilize the country. So maybe all the deaths that happened during the October Revolution weren't enough to get the CIA happy...

Btw, why do I keep seeing things like "neo-Soviet dictatorship" in the threads? It's totally obvious that Russia is a Federation with free elections.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

It's totally obvious that Russia is a Federation with free elections.

That's another issue, I always hear that Putin is a dictator who use fraudolent elections to come to power. But most of ppl i know support him and voted for him.
How come the majority of free ppl (no one still coudn't poit out a freedom that russians do not enjoy and citizens of western "free" countries do) support him and vote for him and he's still a dictator?

It was so obvious why that quote from "For Whom The Bells Toll" was used. What's not obvious is how anyone could consider it to be a threatening statement... Well, unless they think classic books are a threat. lol.
And when I think about all those people in the peaceful OWS demonstrations that were beaten and pepper sprayed, I think using that quote was appropriate. Apathy supports monsters.

President Putin's job approval rating = over 82%.
President Obama's job approval rating = about 41%.
So which President should somebody suspect got into office with a corrupt election?
Only a Russophobe would say Putin.

Btw, the Princeton University study concluded that America is an Oligarchy, not a Democracy:

Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
In English: the wealthy few move policy, while the average American has little power.

BBC News - Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

So how can anyone say that our government isn't corrupt? It doesn't matter who we vote for because they aren't the people who make the important decisions.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

It was so obvious why that quote from "For Whom The Bells Toll" was used. What's not obvious is how anyone could consider it to be a threatening statement... Well, unless they think classic books are a threat. lol.
And when I think about all those people in the peaceful OWS demonstrations that were beaten and pepper sprayed, I think using that quote was appropriate. Apathy supports monsters.

President Putin's job approval rating = over 82%.
President Obama's job approval rating = about 41%.
So which President should somebody suspect got into office with a corrupt election?
Only a Russophobe would say Putin.

Btw, the Princeton University study concluded that America is an Oligarchy, not a Democracy:

BBC News - Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

So how can anyone say that our government isn't corrupt? It doesn't matter who we vote for because they aren't the people who make the important decisions.

My final reply for a while unless some new posters participate. Sorry. The U.S. is a democracy if you consider that democracies ...A) don't work and B) are flawed since it is empowerment of special interest groups and a dumbing down of the masses. Imho, whether you want to call America an oligarchy or democracy, is rather irrelevant. Those who find democracy to be an ideal will obviously disagree.

Whether approval ratings are high or low or election % are at 80% or 90%, is not enough info to go on. What was the turn out? What is the evidence that the entire election was fair or untainted. Sorry, but you obviously don't talk to many Russians. Talking to a bunch of Putin fans here is not going to provide a fair sample. If you insist you have never heard of any Russian citizens or politicians claim of rigged results and interfering with elections, then I question how much you have investigated what happens in Russia. Plus, the media is controlled and there is a heavy influence on that industry to what they will spin and how they will do it. So, having "80% vote for Putin' is more or less not indicative of firm support or a functioning political system that approves of the status quo. On the other hand, one could possibly argue that the electorate's minds are molded to support the status quo based on repetive conditioning to accept the current system since citizens would have to take time to weed through information outlets which are all presenting information how they (i.e. the Government) want it delivered.

It should not be rocket science that you can have corruption in both the USA AND Russia and there isn't one that is 'better' than the other. Corruption is...uh, corruption.

Thanks for reading. Good day.

Вы должны воздерживаться от переходов на личности. Напоминаю: переход на личность, публичное выражение неуважения к другому есть нарушение правил форума. Конечно, тема горячая, и я призываю всех к соблюдению спокойствия в дискуссии.

Of course. But, I don't see a violation of the rules in any of those replies. I find their posts subjective and biased and suggested the contrast: anti-West slant (which is fine, by me, probably) vs neo-Soviet/Putinist apologist tone - which recent discussions of particular Westerners also share.

I also objected to Mr. Mak's assertion (check post) about the Kiev government but I explained this illogical evaluation already. No one has disputed it yet so either they have no counter argument or it's perceived as accurate.

I guess I can express it better but, honestly, it's just my belief that some of the statements aren't just false but rather absurd. I am against certain criticism of Russia but when it's warranted and justified, then it should be examined and acknowledged instead of whining and defensiveness that sounds childish and immature. Correct? I try to explain where I'm coming from so my critiques are not baseless.