Thread: "Russophobia" and "Russophilia" :)

No, but think about it; It's NOT strange that people from English speaking countries think that life in the USSR was awful and everything there was a total failure, or really oppressive.

There are probably thousands of "documentaries" (read: propaganda) about exactly that, from the BBC, Discovery Channel, History Channel and various American media outlets.

Not to mention literally hundreds or thousands of Hollywood films where Russia and Russians are portrayed negatively. An American stops the evil Russian plan and saves some beautiful girl who is super grateful.

I think it's almost impossible for a normal person not to be affected by that.

I watched that kind of stuff for the first time, in the 1990s. English speaking TV on cable was just a revelation for me - for a while I couldn't get enough of it.

I have to admit, I mostly believed these documentaries, and was totally shocked. It seemed that people in Russia were downright cruel for allowing certain things to go on, not to mention the leaders who appeared incompetent and ruthless.

And I believed it, despite the fact that I had visited the USSR several times. I figured: "Well, I only saw central Leningrad really, and tourist areas in Latvia. It must have been that the rest of the country was terrible and only a few big cities and tourist areas were good."

Now I feel very torn about it: Nobody wants to be an apologetic for a cruel regime, or feel that they are affected by propaganda. On the other hand - I personally don't think the USSR was an evil empire and I saw nothing at all to give any indication in that direction.

Since there is so much misinformation, I feel that the ONLY credible source of information about this, is the people who experienced it themselves. I.e. people here like Alex_krsk, Basil77, Crocodile and others who have been speaking about it.

Of course, there is a mixed bag from them as well - but you can definitely see a pattern.

Oh and another thing that came up here several times that just isn't true, is that people who visited the USSR as tourists, weren't allowed to walk around freely. The suggestion being that they were only allowed to see "approved" sights. Well that is just not true. I am not going to bore anybody with tourism stories from my childhood, but neither my trips, or several other trips that I heard of, required guides all the time. I think it was needed for translation mainly, and for the same reason that you might use a guide in any other country. Lots of people drove their cars to the Black Sea, hardly with a guide in their car.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

For those who interested in life in late USSR I'd recommend watching "Служебный роман" movie. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR-1...ViDwsbTd9SV5gz
link seems to still work despite that new youtube copyright policy
Unlike most other movies of that time this represents REAL life of soviet office workers of that time.

english subtitles suck btw

I've seen it Somebody recommended it when I first joined this forum. Gosh, so much nicer than offices I work in.... Nice film.

However - I think this film depicts Moscow, right? Rural USSR was somewhat backwards, wasn't it - and went through hell in the 90s when state jobs and subsidies died. It was really sad, to see how the Russian countryside just feel through the floor in the 1990s. I just hope they are back on their feet. I don't know myself. But in Moscow it seems people have been doing fine most of the time.

But on the hygiene articles issue: Actually, there was a certain imo standard female product that was not available in the USSR. Of course, there were alternatives - but very old fashioned. I really don't know why the USSR didn't come up with a bit more choice on that front. Today I am sure Russia has the same Johnson & Johnson products as everyone else though.

Originally Posted by Hanna

However - I think this film depicts Moscow, right? Rural USSR was somewhat backwards, wasn't it - and went through hell in the 90s when state jobs and subsidies died. It was really sad, to see how the Russian countryside just feel through the floor in the 1990s. I just hope they are back on their feet. I don't know myself. But in Moscow it seems people have been doing fine most of the time.
[/I]

No. It depends on what you mean by "rural". In north (and area where i used to live was considered "north") ppl made even more money.
And the educartional level and culture was mostly the same.

My father was a research scientist (physics) and my mother was university profesor (befor they biult Krsnoyarsk university there used to be a branch of Novosibirsk university) and i recall that atmosphere of university. That was a nice time. Authorities didn't bother scientific society with ideology while paying them quite a good money so there was a smell of anti soviet romantics, dissident home made literature and lots of other interesting stuff.


If you mean agricultural sector that's true there was a decay almost all the late soviet time.

LOL @ the toilet paper issue! But yeah, I can believe there would be people stupid enough to buy into that.

I don't know what the current "toilet-paper standards" are in major Russian cities.

I do recall very well from the early 1990s, however, that:

(1) Public restrooms quite often had no toilet paper at all;

(2) When public restrooms did have paper for wiping your butt, it was often squares cut from old newspapers.

(3) While it was easy to find "real" toilet paper on rolls at Russian stores, it's only a slight exaggeration to say that you could use the stuff as a substitute for sandpaper.

(4) Soft, comfortable, absorbent toilet paper could also be found in some Russian stores, but the label was always in English or some other Western European language. (I can remember some Russian friends marveling over the extreme comfort of "pre-moistened towelettes" imported from Italy, because they were SO MUCH NICER than the toilet paper actually manufactured in Russia.)

Sure, it's possible that things have greatly improved since then -- but if so, then it's a rather recent improvement, and the notion that "it's difficult to find good TP in Russia" is hardly what I would call a развесистая клюква (in the sense of a "baseless stereotype".)

Oh seriously!
no American quality toilet paper = very evil country

For goodness sakes; if it's there when you need it and it can do the job, it doesn't need to be triple-sheet extra fluffy cream-coloured Princess Deluxe....!

According to guidebooks I've come across, the standard recycled European toilet paper isn't good enough for sensitive American butts either...
It makes me laugh.

Maybe that's the secret of how to win a war against America - just deprive her of loo paper...


--------------------

Below: Example of what I was talking about earlier. Listen to the extremely dramatized voice... use of "experts", dramatic sound effects and unsubstantiated claims. No attempt at giving any other perspective on the events described.

This is NOT an objective documentary it has a very clear agenda and message. This type of presentation IS propaganda, a text-book example! There are literally hundreds if not thousands near identical "documentaries" and the BBC among others love them.

If this type of information is ALL you ever saw about the USSR, then of course, that's what you'll believe.

Initially they are jumping back and forth between the civil war in Russia and the 1930s as if it was the same period. This appears to be a fairly recent documentary but it's worthy of the cold war, in it's exaggerated one-sidedness.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Maybe that's the secret of how to win a war against America - just deprive her of loo paper...

ROFL! Look, I know that toilet paper isn't a very big deal -- as a 10-year-old, I went on two-week Boy Scout campouts in rural Turkey (it was a joint American/Turkish scouting program); I was also in the Boy Scouts in Japan; I've done youth hostels, I've done wilderness trips, I know how to wipe my butt with newspaper or Sears catalog pages or oak leaves.

At the same time, however, lots of people are more picky than I am about what they wipe their butt with. If you want to attract wealthy 55-year-old foreign tourists who'll spend a lot of money in restaurants and fine hotels, rather than 20-year-olds who plan to stay in cheap youth hostels, it's important to pay attention to minor details like "toilet paper quality." (Remember, at least part of the rationalization for spending so much money on Sochi is that the facilities would continue to generate revenue from international tourism long after the Olympic games were over.)

Initially they are jumping back and forth between the civil war in Russia and the 1930s as if it was the same period. This appears to be a fairly recent documentary but it's worthy of the cold war, in its exaggerated one-sidedness.

I don't at all agree with Hanna's characterization of the documentary -- of COURSE a movie about mass graves filled with executed victims is going to use "dramatic" music (whaddaya expect, Khachaturian's "Sabre Dance"?), and but I "Liked" her comment anyway because of her point about the documentary's recentness.

(There's nothing wrong with this kind of "one sided" documentary as a sort of antidote to the rosy-colored, pro-Soviet apologetics of liars like Walter Duranty, or as an eye-opener for extremely naive viewers who think that "Communism is just like sharing cookies in kindergarten". But people who already know that Stalin had blood on his hands deserve a more balanced look that is just as honest about the bloody brutality of Tsarist society and other problems that the USSR was trying to solve.)

I should definitely add SergeMak to the list of people who know what they are talking about, when it comes to the USSR. It was very interesting to read about your experiences. That's tons more relevant and credible than what anyone who did not experience this era first-hand has to say.

When it's described in that way, then it's very tragic that most of what the Soviet Union tried to achieve, came to nothing. I don't agree with everything about the USSR, and I am not doubting that a lot of people were very fed up with it towards the end. But I nevertheless think most of the ideals were very noble.

Most tragic is old people in the ex USSR today, I guess.

Imagine if they spent most of their working life doing something that was partly ideologically motivated, trying to build up the country and/or communism because of genuine commitment. They experienced hardships during the war, and primitive conditions in their early working life.

Then just as they reach retirement, everything they worked for their entire life just comes crumbling down and is sold in the most vulgar capitalist sell-out in world history!

Then the person finds that he/she has to live on a pittance of a pension that reduces them to tragic poverty for the rest of their lives. While oligarchs are cruising their world and spending the fruits of Soviet labour and thievery on extravagant and unnecessary luxury.

And just to add insult to injury the person might be in Ukraine, the Baltics or somewhere, where, in addition to everything else, he/she is subject to condemnation or discrimination because of language reasons. Perhaps also considered a scape-goat for long-ago events that they are not responsible for.

It's really tragic to think about.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Then the person finds that he/she has to live on a pittance of a pension that reduces them to tragic poverty for the rest of their lives.

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Ух ты! Она, наверное, ветеран Великой Отечественной войны. Дай Бог ей здоровья!
А так средняя пенсия по старости сейчас в три раза меньше: С 1 апреля средняя пенсия в

Originally Posted by Lampada

А так средняя пенсия по старости сейчас в три раза меньше: С 1 апреля средняя пенсия в

Да 12 тысяч сейчас пенсия. Это начисление. Обычно плюс к этому идёт местная надбавка. плюс льготы. В среднем на руки получается 16 - 18 т.р.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

My gf's grandmother is 85, her pension is about 32 000 roubles (which is about 950 dollars) for that money she can afford much more that she could with her soviet pension.

Good to hear that she can manage well on that.

So does this mean Putin is beginning to fix the problems for old people in Russia, or is she just fortunate with a higher pension than average?

In one of the Ukraine threads, somebody was suggesting that pensions in Russia can sometimes be as low as 250 USD per month. I.e. they said that while the situation for old people is bad in Ukraine, it's not much better in Russia.

As far as I am concerned poverty and hardship among the old is a tremendous tragedy.

According to Ukrainian news agency UNIAN Средняя пенсия в Украине за 3 месяца выросла на 1 доллар : Новости УНИАН the average pension in Ukraine is 1428 hrivnyas which equals to 125 USD or 92 euros or 4359 rubles. As you can see, minimal pension in Russia is 3 times higher than average pension in Ukraine.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

According to Ukrainian news agency UNIAN Средняя пенсия в Украине за 3 месяца выросла на 1 доллар : Новости УНИАН the average pension in Ukraine is 1428 hrivnyas which equals to 125 USD or 92 euros or 4359 rubles. As you can see, minimal pension in Russia is 3 times higher than average pension in Ukraine.

Хорошо б, если на Крым это распространилось. У моей подруги родители в Симферополе. Они очень радовались, что их пенсия резко изменится. А она поднялась пока на 20%. Они, правда, ожидают, что позже ещё будут добавки. Цены же на продукты и товары уже подскочили почти в два раза.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Хорошо б, если на Крым это распространилось. У моей подруги родители в Симферополе. Они очень радовались, что их пенсия резко изменится. А она поднялась пока на 20%. Они, правда, ожидают, что позже ещё будут добавки. Цены же на продукты и товары уже подскочили почти в два раза.

Почему цены так много увеличилась?

Я была в Украине; еда не очинь много дешевле, чем в Европе...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Почему цены так много увеличилась?

Я была в Украине; еда не очинь много дешевле, чем в Европе...

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

Originally Posted by Lampada

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

Не читатйте СМИ и не смотрите ТВ! Ни Украинские ни Российские ни Американские ни Европейские (ни какие другие). Не превращайте свою голову в унитаз.

Я НИКОГДА о событиях на Украине не сужу по Российским СМИ.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Не знаю, вот тут вычитала: В Крыму цены на продукты выросли вдвое, а зарплаты и пенсии до сих пор не повысили | Экономическая правда

Тут ещё есть: http://15minut.org/article/ceny-na-p...05-07-10-31-00

As Mikhail Bulgakov, who lived in Kiev, said "never read Soviet newspapers before dinner..."
http://video.yandex.ru/iframe/svyblov/p9vjvklf5b.2303

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I don't know what the current "toilet-paper standards" are in major Russian cities.
I do recall very well from the early 1990s, however, that:
(1) Public restrooms quite often had no toilet paper at all;
(2) When public restrooms did have paper for wiping your butt, it was often squares cut from old newspapers.
(3) While it was easy to find "real" toilet paper on rolls at Russian stores, it's only a slight exaggeration to say that you could use the stuff as a substitute for sandpaper.
(4) Soft, comfortable, absorbent toilet paper could also be found in some Russian stores, but the label was always in English or some other Western European language. (I can remember some Russian friends marveling over the extreme comfort of "pre-moistened towelettes" imported from Italy, because they were SO MUCH NICER than the toilet paper actually manufactured in Russia.)
Sure, it's possible that things have greatly improved since then -- but if so, then it's a rather recent improvement, and the notion that "it's difficult to find good TP in Russia" is hardly what I would call a развесистая клюква (in the sense of a "baseless stereotype".)

They spent over $50 billion on the Sochi venue and some idiots thought they forgot the TP? LMAO! For that much money the TP coulda been lined with gold! LMAO!
But yeah, I can understand why there wasn't much TP in Russia in the 1990's. I read that Western influence in Russia almost totally destroyed the country.
But Russia survived the 1990's and fought back to become the 2nd most powerful nation on Earth. That commands respect and Russia and the Russian people have mine. Russia IS unconquerable.

Russian TP could be a substitute for sandpaper? That's what I call multi-functional. I mean, how soft does it need to be for a quick wipe, lmao?

Originally Posted by SergeMak

My father is native Ukrainian from South Russian Belgorod region. He was born in 1931, his parents were just simple peasants so he is one of those who survived the "starvation". Of course, he was too young to remember this time in detail but he talked with his parents, and he doesn't agree with your estimate of those events.
On the other hand, talking about protecting of people's private property, I would recommend to you to read the Constitution of Russian Federation. It says that in our country all type of property are equally respected. That means, that if the state has a duty to protect private property, it also has the same responsibility towards all other types of property - municipal, state, social, join-stock and so on. During the Soviet period of history a great industry was built in the Soviet Union - thousands of plants and factories. All this assets didn't belong to a certain person or a group of people - they were in a socialist property - the property of all Soviet people. So, how could it happen that all this property suddenly became a property of certain oligarchs in the 1990s when the liberal capitalist reforms started in the country approved by the Western politicians? Do you know what results these brought to Russian people? I'll tell you: deindustrialisation, impoverishment, social inequality, criminalization, corruption, decline in life expectancy, decline of birth-rate, terrorism ans so on. All this I saw in plenty an example with my own eyes. Have you ever worked without getting paid for three and more months when the inflation rate was more than 30%? I did. Have you ever received you wage not in money but in some natural goods, as, for example, sausage? I did.
So don't tell me about the great liberal values and the bad life in the Soviet Union.
Life in the Soviet Union was not easy, but there was a positive dynamic almost during the whole Soviet period. People always new, that to-day we maybe don't live very good, but to-morrow it will be better, and it really would happen.

Originally Posted by Alex_krsk

But now it's much better than in 90s and much bettre than in the USSR so maybe it's not that bad with tose "liberal values".
I'm afraid it wouldn't. Those were only promises, things stayed the same every year. But i may be wrong considering china. Chinese managed to make reforms without revolutions. Whie the rgime in china is still much more strict than in USSR (which is ok with the western media btw when russia is always accused in some laws that are more strict in those western countries)

^ Thanks. That's what makes this the most epic forum I've ever joined. And that's what I call history - people. Politicians and outsiders write the textbooks and media but it's the people who really know what happened... and what's happening.
Btw, I think the USSR knew that life would get better in Russia. I think they knew that the Russian people would make life better... and they did. In the end, it's not really about governments, it's only about the people.
It's people that make governments... and break them. I think in Russia the government is the people... Well, more than it is in America.

What is the population size of Norway? Less than 5 million. And the oil and gas income is only 30% of their state budget. Hm...

By the way, on the rise of prices in Crimea. Maybe it will surprise some Russian emigrants to know (я не перехожу на личности...), that unlike as it used to be in the Soviet times, the Russian government doesn't set the prices on consumer goods - we have liberal capitalist economy now (we appreciate the liberal values indeed!). So what is the accusation of the government about? It's the retailers who are to blame. Prices in Russia are higher than in Ukraine (because the standard of living is higher), but not twice. But you cannot deny that the government promised to gradually raise the pensions and it is fulfilling the promise.

Originally Posted by SergeMak

What is the population size of Norway? Less than 5 million. And the oil and gas income is only 30% of their state budget. Hm...

That's not true. And there's something else than just a state budget http://rosreferendum.com/information/menunorway.html

But the most important thing that Norway doesn't own their oil and gas, they just collect tax from BP.
Norway had exchanged their sovereignty for garanteed piece of their oil pie.
That's the best what they could do. Small country in Europe just had no choice when all the world oi is being sold for dollars.
And what they have in return? One of the happiest nation on earth.

But norway is a small nation. Furthermore they fully accept all the european "values".

Nobody would let russia be anything close to that. In 90s they were getting Russia redy to be thrown into chaos and split like Yugoslavia before and Ukraine now.
The phrase that "fossils belong to the people of Russia" was erased from the constitution. And Putin still can't brake through "liberal" resistence to bring it back.
Khodorkovsky was almost done with his deal of selling almost half of Siberia to BP. Etc

Originally Posted by SergeMak

By the way, on the rise of prices in Crimea. Maybe it will surprise some Russian emigrants to know (я не перехожу на личности...), that unlike as it used to be in the Soviet times, the Russian government doesn't set the prices on consumer goods - we have liberal capitalist economy now (we appreciate the liberal values indeed!). So what is the accusation of the government about? It's the retailers who are to blame. Prices in Russia are higher than in Ukraine (because the standard of living is higher), but not twice. But you cannot deny that the government promised to gradually raise the pensions and it is fulfilling the promise.

You started to discuss cuases of high prises having no idea what the prices really are. (I don't take into account provided links to Ukrainian media)
Half of this thread is full of basles cpeculations like this

That's not true

If it's not true - it's Wikipedia who's to blame, not me. I'm not a specialist on Norway, all I know is Norway and Russia are too different countries to make valid comparisons. It's you who began to compare them.

You started to discuss cuases of high prises having no idea what the prices really are. (I don't take into account provided links to Ukrainian media)
Half of this thread is full of basles cpeculations like this

I know what the prices were last summer there, because I was in Crimea last summer and I know what the prices really were. Some of them were really lower, especially strong alcohol beverages, some of them slightly lower - such as sausages and meat, some of them were about as high as in Russia, such as bread, some of them were in fact higher - that is dairy products. If they have risen twice by now, they should be far higher than those in continental Russia now.

If you don't believe me, here is a link to an old article dated by 2009. Цены в Крыму растут к лету
As you can see, the prices in Crimea were not very lower than in Russia even then especially in summer:

25 апреля 2009 Эльви Усманова

Цены в Крыму растут к лету

Еда и питье , Цены

В Крыму в магазинах и лавках можно найти любые товарыВ Крыму продукты стоят несколько дешевле, чем в Москве и Петербурге, однако и особой дешевизны тоже нет - не Индия. А в сезон в Ялте цена на черешню может быть даже выше, чем в Москве. Цены на продукты в марте-апреле 2009 года в Симферополе, Севастополе, на Южном берегу Крыма были такие...

В скобках даны примерные цены в рублях

Продукты:
Растительное масло 12-14 грн/л (60-70 руб.)
Масло сливочное 200-грамм 6 грн (30 руб.)
Хлеб – 2,3-3,5 грн (буханка или батон) (18 руб.)

Мясо:

Говядина – 25-40 грн (125-200 руб)

свинина - 20-40 грн/кг (100-200р)
сало – от 10 грн/кг (50р)


Рыба
судак - от 22 грн/кг (130р),
пеленгас – от 17 грн/кг (100р),
сельдь – от 12 грн/кг (100р)

Курица – 18-30 грн/кг (филе – 32 грн/кг) (100-150р)
Вареная колбаса - от 30 грн (150р)
Копченая колбаса - от 37 грн (185р)

Молочные продукты:
молоко – 4-7 грн/л (20-35р)
кефир – 3,5-7 грн/л (18-35р)
ряженка - 4,5-7 грн/л (22-35)
сметана – 14-15 грн/л (70-75р)
творог – 25-30 грн/кг (120 - 150р)
сыр – от 35 грн/кг (175 р)
плавленный сыр – от 15 грн/кг) (75 р)

Яйца – 6,5-8 грн за 10 штук (35-50р)

Овощи:

картошка разных сортов 2-7 грн/кг (10-35 руб.)

капуста – 3-5 грн/кг (15-25 руб.)
зелень – 1,5-2 грн за пучок (7-10 руб.)
морковь 5 грн/кг (25 руб.)
помидоры – 9-12 грн/кг (45- 60 руб.)
лук – 6-7 грн/кг (30-35 руб.)
огурцы – 3-5 грн/кг (15-25 руб.)

Фрукты:
яблоки - 20-25 грн/кг (120р)
бананы – 6 грн/кг (35р)
апельсины – 9 грн/кг (55р)
черешня – 15 грн/кг (75р)
кабачки – 3-4 грн/кг (18-24р)

Спиртные напитки:
коньяк - от 24 грн/бутылка 0.5 (120р)
вино – «Массандра» - 18-60 грн/бутылка (120-360р)
«Коктебель» - 19-35 грн/бутылка (120-240)
«Инкерман» - 18-40 грн/бутылка (120-240р)
водка – от 18 грн/бутылка 0.5 (120р)
пиво - от 2.50 грн/бутылка 0.5 (15р)

Напитки:
минеральная вода - от 2 грн/л (12р)
сок - 5-10 грн/л (35-60р)
сок 3 литра - 11-15 грн (60-80р)

PS. Oh, I'm sorry, I don't know what "basles" means.